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  • #31
    Re: Global Warming Debate

    What happens next? Now that all these secret documents have been made public does our government change it's behavior, will any world power decide to conduct itself any differently as a result of wiki leaks?
    If they did (change the way they operate) because of this then whoever is behind the 'leaking' of this information has gained some bit of control over those in power, be it in the US or elsewhere.

    Follow the money and find out who is behind these 'leaks'. Wikileaks did not come up with this information on their own did they? It was probably handed to them or they were pointed to a place where they could 'find' it on their own, maybe with a password hint or two. And yes, why no 'leaks' of intel from the UK, Russia, China, etc. Because if you did you'd be dead before you could finish reading the stuff or someplace where you would never be heard from again.
    "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006

    https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerToolInstitute

    ----

    Time, cost, or quality; pick any two but you can't have all three.

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    • #32
      Re: Global Warming Debate

      Originally posted by cpw View Post
      I think our diplomats need to be able to communicate with the state department in private. If some King says something to a US diplomat privately, or some official we need to deal with is a liar, the state department needs that to inform their decision making. If we out everything one of our allies says to us, they will not be as candid. If we have to deal with people who we know dissemble, it is better for us to be able to choose whether or not to call them on it; rather than having it outed publicly.

      I think that this release has definitely hurt American interests, and the leaker should be charged with treason and espionage. If Assange were ever dumb enough to enter some US controlled area, he should be arrested too.

      I do agree that our allies are not our allies because they like us, but rather it is in their self interest; so we'll manage to weather this incident.

      Though I do agree it's imperative we're able to allow classified communication between global VIP's, you just iterated my point on mentioning the good versus bad and collateral damages from this.

      So far, it looks like most of the stuff revealed is relatively petty, excepting this Hilary problem.

      My concern lies in the way our government has gradually evolved away from it's intended function since the inception of our Constitution.

      That intent, "Of, for and by the people" as stated in the Declaration of Independance, has become replaced with Plutonomy, or as Musolini would call it "corporatism".

      An example of where I'm going, just three years ago in this forum I was ranting over how great it was the Bush was teaching terrorists a lesson by invading Iraq.

      A few years later, after learning about Cheney's ties to Haliburton and Blackwater, atop the CIA/Plame incident, the question came to mind, did we just send thousands of our young men and woman to Iraq to die for the benefit of Blackwater or Haliburton profits?

      It also occurred to me that maybe I was being naive by putting too much faith in the way our government works behind the scenes, specifically our system of special interest money relative to the Supreme Courts recent Citizens United decision.

      This decision also allows Supreme Court justices themselves to take money, a complete failure of the Constitutions express prohibition of bribery, overthrown by those who benefit from the receipt of that bribery.


      My point, though it might be a bad thing in the short term that secret or proprietary information is made public, it's looking more and more like we the people need to know what's going on behind the scenes, especially in light of what the root cause of this recession is.

      The next leak is a big one, one of our biggest banks may become exposed in conjunction with political figures for cheating America, I'd rather we jeopardize some internal secrets if it equates to exposing a few congressmen for accepting bribes, and we change the laws that allowed it to happen.

      If Hilary loses her career, but we learn that Dodd or Boehner were turning a blind eye in exchange for payola, she was a worthwhile casualty for us to learn it's time we change the way our government works.


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      • #33
        Re: Global Warming Debate

        Our country has not been "of, for, or by the people" for quite some time. We the people lost tens of thousands of Sons in vietnam fighting communism only to have lost millions of jobs to communist china which we make stronger and richer with our trade dollars. Who decided that game change was good for the USA? Should we be surprised some of our legislators are dirty when their financial affairs are not made public?

        I agree that this wiki leaks issue is deserving of our attention, but once again "Jobs" take a back seat to other things. While congress and the President decide who should get a tax break!

        As a private citizen I can't for the life of me figure out how allowing or encouraging millions of jobs to leave the USA made good sense, but our legislators thought differently. Full financial disclosure and random audits for the legislators, their business associates, family and friends. Follow the money ands see how and why they vote to damage our country and economy.

        Tax breaks and tax incentives will not create the millions of jobs needed. This month 200 million Americans will lose their unemployment benefits, they are not all lazy folks who don't want to work.

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        • #34
          Re: Global Warming Debate

          They should hire an independent contractor to take the wiki-leaks guy out and move on.

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          • #35
            Re: Global Warming Debate

            Originally posted by Abbott View Post
            They should hire an independent contractor to take the wiki-leaks guy out and move on.

            Consider what that means.

            This is similar to what Cheney did with Iraq.

            He hired Blackwater for security the CEO coincidentally happened to be Cheney's friend and neighbor, he contracted Haliburton, the company he was CEO of prior to getting into politics....leaving room to question the motives for invading Iraq in the first place.

            If the American government were allowed to start hiring private contractors to "dispose" of undesirables, where would it stop?

            If you lost a government contract to someone and you could prove they bribed a congressman to get it, should the Congressman secretly hire someone to, er, "quiet" you for "treason" if you threaten to go public with the proof?

            If you get into a fender bender with the son of a senator who turned out o be drunk at the time, would it be ok for the senator to secretly hire a private contractor to dispose of you?

            At any rate, topic drift aside, my point in mentioning Wikileaks is that probably none of us truly know what's fact or fiction when it comes to global warming, but if we have access to information that's intentionally being hidden from the public it changes everything, we finally know whether oil companies are distorting fact and bribing government, or we learn that Al Gore has huge investments in alternative energies and is trying toi use scare tactics to pump his stocks.


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            • #36
              Re: Global Warming Debate

              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
              I agree that this wiki leaks issue is deserving of our attention, but once again "Jobs" take a back seat to other things. While congress and the President decide who should get a tax break!

              As a private citizen I can't for the life of me figure out how allowing or encouraging millions of jobs to leave the USA made good sense, but our legislators thought differently. Full financial disclosure and random audits for the legislators, their business associates, family and friends. Follow the money ands see how and why they vote to damage our country and economy.

              Tax breaks and tax incentives will not create the millions of jobs needed. This month 200 million Americans will lose their unemployment benefits, they are not all lazy folks who don't want to work.
              Actually, the unemployment crisis, middle class wealth depreciation and Wkileaks may be more correlated than you realize.

              If the next Wikileak reveals that big banks were in collusion with government officials via bribery to fleece the middle class via the CDO scam, the government could then be forced by public outrage to finally address the real problem of blatant bribery and conflicts of interest.

              Bush and Cheney thought it a good idea to just blindly cut corporate and upper class taxes under the guise that it would automatically create jobs, even giving tax breaks specifically for outsourcing American jobs under the label of "foreign trade".

              Despite the obvious, that it failed miserably, Bush still insists it will work eventually.

              This scheme has quadrupled the number of billionaires from around 300 to 1100 in the last ten years.

              It has also had an obvious effect on the rest of us.

              If just a single page from those hundreds of thousands of pages of leaks reveals even a hint that this scheme was perpetrated intentionaly, we truly will see "change we can believe in".

              Public pressure will also mount to force our politicians to stop the status quo.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Global Warming Debate

                Originally posted by DuckButter View Post

                Consider what that means.

                This is similar to what Cheney did with Iraq.

                He hired Blackwater for security the CEO coincidentally happened to be Cheney's friend and neighbor, he contracted Haliburton, the company he was CEO of prior to getting into politics....leaving room to question the motives for invading Iraq in the first place.

                If the American government were allowed to start hiring private contractors to "dispose" of undesirables, where would it stop?

                (snipped)
                It means Assange would be dead and the folks at Wikileaks who have been trying to oust him would be in charge. That's a plus at the very least it's not a minus.

                Blackwater would be one of the outfits that would be available for such a task.

                I don't have any problems with Cheney or Iraq. I never cared about WMDs and I am glad that we finally finished what the Gulf War started.

                I don't care where it would stop, I can think of a dozen people around the world that the U.S.A. would benefit from if they were made to go permanently away.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Global Warming Debate

                  Originally posted by Abbott View Post
                  It means Assange would be dead and the folks at Wikileaks who have been trying to oust him would be in charge. That's a plus at the very least it's not a minus.

                  Blackwater would be one of the outfits that would be available for such a task.

                  I don't have any problems with Cheney or Iraq. I never cared about WMDs and I am glad that we finally finished what the Gulf War started.

                  I don't care where it would stop, I can think of a dozen people around the world that the U.S.A. would benefit from if they were made to go permanently away.
                  With the revelation that January's leak is about one of America's largest banks' corrupt practices, likely regarding the CDO scam we're all now paying for, you're right, somewhere around a dozen people around the globe will be very glad to see Wikileaks shut down.

                  On the other hand, Hundreds of millions lose out....the evidence is buried, the "ill gotten" wealth preserved.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Global Warming Debate

                    Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                    With the revelation that January's leak is about one of America's largest banks' corrupt practices, likely regarding the CDO scam we're all now paying for, you're right, somewhere around a dozen people around the globe will be very glad to see Wikileaks shut down.

                    A heck of a lot more then a dozen people would be glad to see that outfit shut down.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Global Warming Debate

                      Abbot, sure then, let's say the total would amount to every world leader and corporate executive across the globe that has engaged in bribery, conflicts of interest or treason.

                      That number is likely in the tens of thousands.

                      The point, ask yourself what power keeps Democracy alive in a world of secret back room political payoffs that we never get to know about?

                      The only defense in this case against corporatism, fascism, Oligarchy, Plutonomy or other detriments to Democracy is transparency, an informed public...or Rupert Murdoch's version thereof through Fox Network.

                      Rupert was caught funneling millions anonymously into the Chamber of Commerce to assert his personal control over our politics...thanks to a "leak" we now know this.

                      In other words, we have a Constitutional right to be informed on what our tax money is spent on, or whether our Democratic government is legislating on our behalf, or that of personal gain or bribery.

                      This is the basis for the Freedom of Information act, as well as the Constitutions First Amendment, all of which I'm certain you're very familiar with.

                      I'm not debating that it's ok to disclose proprietary or classified government information, but that the collateral damages of what Wiki is doing might be offset by a greater good that comes at a desperately needed time in an age of increasing Plutocratic control over Democracy.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Global Warming Debate

                        Originally posted by DELCASE View Post
                        Wasn't the government saying we were heading into another ice age 25 years ago ?
                        nope that was a just couple of magazine articles the media made a big deal over and much of the public accepted as true...at no time has global cooling held support with the scientific community even at the time the articles were published warming was the favored outcome in the scientific community...but warming planet wasn't as scary a headline as ICE AGE was...we know better now both are cooling and warming can be very bad...

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                        • #42
                          Re: Global Warming Debate

                          Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                          There is no longer any debate that global warming is real.

                          The debate has now shifted to whether the cause is man-made or natural.
                          man made CO2(fossil fuels) can be measured it has a different isotope signature...so that debate is settled as well..



                          A valid point that many who debunk global warming make is that once atmospheric CO levels reach a specific saturation, CO can no longer increase the level of greenhouse effect, this is true, and we are near that level of saturation.

                          Two things this argument does not address.

                          1, Despite the fact that this level of CO can no longer enhance the greenhouse effect, a larger amount of CO can lengthen the amount of time it takes for natural absorption, which lengthens the time the warming remains.
                          I've heard that but the temperature on Venus would contradict that, I know it's closer to the sun than earth but Venus is hotter than Mercury which is half again closer to the sun than Venus...


                          2, the scary one...

                          The Permian-Triassic extinction, the most thorough and abrupt extinction in Earths history, was caused by an abrupt release of oceanic Methane-hydrate deposits when a natural event triggered an increase of global temperatures by only a few degree's.

                          There's a dense layer of C-12 at this level in the Earth, C-12 is a byproduct of methane, with no fossils or evidence of more than microbial life, nothing but single celled organisms survived this period.

                          Methane is 400 times more potent a greenhouse gas than CO, our oceans floors are once again replete with methane hydrate from hundreds of millions of years of deposits and organic decay.

                          As our glaciers and ice caps melt, the oceans salinity levels decrease, which then affects the thermohaline conveyors' natural cooling affect and causes portions of the oceans floors that may have been cool for hundreds of millions of years to become warm once again, releasing dormant pockets of frozen methane hydrate. (the same stuff that caused the BP disaster, it expands violently when warmed)

                          After a small percentage of methane begins to melt and resurface, it triggers more warming and more subsequent methane releases, this chain of events happens very rapidly, as evidenced by suddenness of the Permian-Triassic extinction.

                          It would seem a ridiculously far fetched idea, but for the fact that it happened before.
                          one estimate for the mass release of methane from the oceans was 5C temp rise, I'm hoping thats wrong...there are already large releases of methane occuring in the arctic as the perma frost regions thaw out for the first time hundreds of thousands of years..

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                          • #43
                            Re: Global Warming Debate

                            Wyly, thanks, now I'm depressed.

                            The Co saturation point is true, there is a max to the amount of greenhouse effect CO can have, regardless if you inject more, but the methane problem is very concerning.

                            As for Venus, it's proximity to the Sun has a lot more to do with it's temperatures than just the atmosphere, also, if memory serves, Venus has experienced severe tectonic activity, the surface has been completely roiled in comparatively recent times, which alludes to the possibility that it's core temperature may also play a role in its 900+ temperatures, similar to the early stages of Earth as it gradually cooled from the collisions of origination and with the object that spawned the moon.

                            Either way, whether it's a 50 degree increase or a 600 degree increase, both would likely be the end of humans.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Global Warming Debate

                              Why do we keep beating around the bush there are just to many people on this planet around 7 billion was the last count and 9 billion in the next twenty years and everyone wanting a bed three square meals a day heating and cooling and where the hell is all this going to come from.

                              Tony

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                              • #45
                                Re: Global Warming Debate

                                Originally posted by Abbott View Post
                                They should hire an independent contractor to take the wiki-leaks guy out and move on.
                                Without people like wikileaks then our democracies wouldn`t exist where a vary few have the moral fortude to risk life and lim and expose the truth which you Abbot living in US take for granted with your smart as== remarks of killing the messenger.

                                Tony

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