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  • #31
    Re: Americans Supporting Communism

    Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
    Frank, I think you missed the premise of my mentioning Wen Jiabao's point.

    If we tax or put tariff's on Chinese imports, half of those fee's are going directly to American corporations, almost half of Chinese exports are American corporations, that's not a communist problem, that's a corporatist problem in America, allowing corporations to take whatever they want or hire wherever they without taxes, all for the right price to the right politicians.

    My last note wasn't to say Communism isn't something to worry about nor embrace, but to say that we need to be more concerned with American Corporatism, another term for Fascism, where our life, laws, safety and posterity revolve around what the minority wealthy deem is best, this was the ideology of Mussolini.

    This is also why I mentioned Citigroups 2006 Plutonomy confernce, several hundred of the worlds wealthiest individuals are apparently convinced Fascism, or as they call it, "Plutonomy" is already the dominant power, they've overpowered Democracy, and from what I can see over the past two years it looks like they were right.

    In case you hadn't noticed, every piece of legislation from Washington is written and paid for by corporations, from Healthcare (no cost cutting or competition, but requiring all Americans to buy insurance, nice), FINREGS, Defense and energy.....the whole list of sectors.

    We fight wars, not solely for Democracy, but to provide Haliburton, Blackwater or Boeing a few new contracts.

    We drill in the Gulf of Mexico rather than onshore for our own natural gas, for the profits of BP, Exxon or Valero.

    The government eliminated Glass-Steagall, not for the wealth creation or free market it was sold to the public as, but to enable Citigroup, Goldman Sachs and the oother big banks the ability to defraud the entire country, and the world.

    Finally, we focus on foreign trade and globalixation, not for the benefits to the middle class as corporate executives pitch us, but for the benefit of corporate bonus packages.

    We need to worry about the problem we have right here at home, a corporate takeover of Democracy, then we can obsess over Communism when the real problem is dealt with, if it ever is.

    No argument here regarding who controls our/ their legislators in washington. The machine has been broken for we the people and working fine for big business for too long. Protectionist laws, tarrifs, import limits, etc., would put a dent in their equation but I think it's safe to say that won't happen any time soon. If we can agree our economy cannot sustain itself using the current equation, and agree that things will not change any time soon, then we can agree there is big trouble ahead.

    I dwell on communist china because I am bothered how the whole thing of job loss, economic decay and substandard goods evolved while our leaders stood by and did nothing. My immediate concerns do not involve china or terrorism. The tragedy of 9/11 while horrific will probably be eclipsed many times over in the event of a collapse in civil obedience resulting from a economic crash of some kind .

    I vote and I believe America is a work in progress, however as much as I want to believe our legislators will not allow our economy to crash, there is little to indicate otherwise. They killed the clock and precious time on healthcare, now they argue over tax breaks. I believe we are past the point of return. Chances are even if all imports were heavily taxed or limited tomorrow and a massive effort to build modern factories and employ millions began immediately, it would be too late. So, go and buy that big screen tv. watch Armageddon in 3d.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Americans Supporting Communism

      I too am guilty of focusing on China for lot of the same reasons as Frank.

      The problem is not really China or India or any other foreign manufacturerinjg country. They are to be admired in the sense that they are going all out to go from worst to first. THeir Governments, while in some cases oppressive and dishonorable, are in fact SUPPORTING THEIR ECONOMIC GROWTH.... which is something our's is absolutely not doing.

      The problem is not, for the most part, American industrial corporations. They operate within a set of rules established by the Government and by its trade policies. Rather than accuse CEOs of greed, we should understand that they are doing their job - which is to compete with others in their industry and maximize profit. It is NOT their fault that the rules of the game say you can achieve a 10 to 20% cost reduction by offshoring. It is NOT their fault that their competitors are offshoring and basically making it NECESSARY for them to offshore to remain competitive. And most significantly, it is NOT their fault that the US consumer has an extremely high affinity for cheap crap that looks glitzy, and tends to buy (no ,matter what anyone says) on PRICE first, LOOKS second, trendiness third, with quality a few positions behind and serviceability probably not making the list, since the thing was so cheap in the first place. YEs the CEOs in some cases get huge money. That is also not their fault. If they are can get the Board to vote them that money, that's fine. Which of us would turn it down? Besides, for every CEO that you read about that gets a multi-million dollar bonus, there are hundreds that get a salary or bonus that is not remarkable at all.

      The problem is not lobbyists. They are doing what the LAW says they are perfectly allowed to do.

      Whining about China or the industrial companies or their lobbies isn't going to solve the problem, because they aren't the problem. They are doing it right.

      The problems is really focused in one place: The US Government. IN no particular order:

      Uncle Sugar maintains the system of legalized corruption through lobbies and campaign funding. Thus they not only leave the door to corruption and special interests unlocked, but they also hold the door open, set out a welcome mat and INVITE CORRUPTION IN since it is the only way for politicians to get elected and re-elected. But even as the economy is folding up under the strain of bad policies largely promoted by special interest lobbies and PACs, no one is even talking about changing this. Including the people. Amazing. Obama's "change we can believe in" hasn't addressed this. The great harbinger of change, the Tea Party, isn't talking about it, either, btw. It's not the lobbyists or special interests that are evil... it's the Government tthat's at fault for allowing this travesty.

      The Government allows the Fed to devalue your wealth through insane monetary policy. Quantitative easing and the unregulated printing of money is exactly the same as them accessing your bank account and taking money out. Exactly the same. Don't rely on my words, research this yourself. Interest rates being artificially low has two serious consequences. The first is that the only way to do this is to increase the money supply. In other words, they print more money. In other words, your money is worth less. Same as QE. The other effect is that it forces people to put their money into the stock market in the hope of decent return. Except that the stock market is and has been for quite some time a house of cards. But the Wall Street firms skim their cut off every one of those dollars. Whether you do well or poorly is immaterial to them, they do well either way. The irrational and corrupt connection between the Government, the Fed, and private financial industry should be clear by the fact that The Fed is buying $600B in treasuries bonds through Goldman, and lining their pockets, rather than directly from the Treasury.

      The Government wastes your money. Obama's stimulus is a great example. A trillion dollars (TWELVE zeros!!), spent in a single year without ANY SORT OF PLAN or MEASURABLE OBJECTIVES. I imagine the CEO of a company coming into the engineering department, opening up a suitcase full of hundred dollar bills, and saying, "Now do something smart to get me out of this mess". That is utter insanity and would never happen... but it happened with the Government. Then they did EXACTLY THE SAME THING with the TARP. If only they had put as much effort into the PLAN as they put into the rhetoric to convince us that they had a plan.

      The Government is spending LIVES and DOLLARS on wars that have no exit strategy, and no measurable objectives. How will we know when we are done in Afghanistan? Will we ever be done? Are we sure we're shooting at the right people?

      The Government has allegiance to those that are making money off of our US consumer market being totally open, rather than to the US citizenry. This has been discussed ad nauseum, yet you aren't hearing ANY talk out of DC to level the playing field. Not from the Repubs, the Dems or the Tea Party. Meanwhile, well over 15 MILLION Americans are unemployed, and the rate actually increased 0.2% in the most recent figures. Who exactly is globalization helping? The GOVERNMENT is responsible for the trade policies and tax structures that COMPEL US INDUSTRY TO SHUT DOWN DOMESTIC FACTORIES AND INDUSTRIES and go offshore. They are defining the rules of the game. Offshoring and job loss is the ONLY POSSIBLE OUTCOME under these rules!

      The Government has done nothing to date and still has no comprehensive energy policy in place, despite the fact that the nation's security, wealth and growth are all at stake. The problems with reliance on imported oil were made very cloear with the oil crises of the 1970s. That was 35 years ago. And still, we have nothing.

      The Government spins facts and lies to the People. They claim the recession is over, but no one is taliking about the massive amount of money that they are printing and injecting into the economy to skew the numbers. They cite jobs added but don't talk about those jobs that are continuing to be cut. They claim that unemployment has stablized but cite statistics that ignore large numbers of long-term unemployed or underemployed. They tell us that devaluing our money is good for us. And we seem to believe all this.

      The Government... oh, what's the point? Isn't this plenty?
      Last edited by Andy_M; 12-04-2010, 03:52 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Americans Supporting Communism

        Andy, I'm going bonkers, this topic usually arouses at least a few points I could counter, I'm impressed.

        You're correct on China, India, and American corporations, they are each independently doing what they must do to survive, which incidentally is also making American corporate executives filthy rich at our expense

        The average CEO salary is now almost 500 times the median salary, which was 50 times in 1980 and currently the greatest disparity of CEO to median range in the DEVELOPED world, plus corporations have $2 trillion in cash reserves currently on the books, dam we could use that cash right now....an argument for Teddy Roosevelt's progressive tax in there ever was.

        You're also correct that the fault lies in our government, for failing in it's Constitutional requirement to serve the welfare and posterity of the public over working to earn campaign bucks from their bribers (which is referred to as "bribery" in the Constitution)

        As for corporations outsourcing-

        Let's say Microsoft decides to "do the right thing for America" and fire it's Chinese workers, then rehire the more expensive Americans.

        Microsoft then loses it's competitive advantage over Apple, Cisco, Oracle, Hewlett Packard and the rest.

        In that sense, hiring Americans amounts to a corporate death sentence in free market competition.

        The problem, again, is our government's focus and the system of inadvertent bribery that has somehow infiltrated, and now controls it.

        I largely hold the Supreme Court responsible in light of "Citiizens United", allowing judges to decide whether they themselves are allowed to receive bribery is a glaring conflict of interest, unconstitutional for the fact the accepting money for favoritism is specifically prohibited in the Constitution.....Dred Scott all over again.

        If Senator "Smith" or Congressman "Johnson" decides to do something about this, maybe legislate for a broad sweeping law that requires higher taxes to all outsourcing corporations to offset lost revenues or create jobs, he cuts himself off from a very big source of career saving campaign funds.

        In this sense, even a politician trying to "do whats right for Americans" would be giving himself a career death sentence, I betcha Obama will be able to attest to this in two years, we now know the Democrats can, the healthcare sector bought us a whole new government.

        As for lobbying, again, I agree.

        There are lobbyists for non-profits, charities, womens rights, civil rights, the list is endless.

        The problem is money.

        We need to eliminate direct campaign finance and put all (tax deductible) political contributions into a general fund that's dispersed evenly to all qualified candidates regardless of party or ideology, each candidate should be only allowed the exact same amount of air time and campaign budget, regardless of personal money, to ensure they all get equal audience.

        Also, again, transparency is a HUGE problem.

        We should all be made aware of whom our leaders are spending time with, what jobs they've been offered after office (revolving door), and what former employers, affiliates, friends or family might benefit from their current position in government.(think Goldman Sachs, Hank Paulson, and half the SEC staff)

        It should be required by lobbyists that all meetings are documented and posted for public perusal so we all know who is lobbying who and what it is their lobbying for.
        Last edited by DuckButter; 12-04-2010, 04:36 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Americans Supporting Communism

          I agree with most of what you've posted. Not all though. Your average pay stats aren't quite right... the statistic you cited relates to the average pay for Fortune 500 companies or possibly Fortune 100 . That pay is clearly very high. Median salary data is also, I think skewed to be pretty low, as it includes the masses doing menial min wage jobs. But nevertheless, average salaries of over $9M for the F500 CEOs are extreme, to say the least. The nationwide average for CEOs is not, however, $9M. I wish it was, I would have never sold! The range for typical CEOs from payscale.com is $100k to $270k. I think that the outrageous salaried paid to the top CEOs are paid to ensure that their ethics, morals and concern for the greater good are kept well-suppressed.

          FEC v. Citizens United was a disastrous decision, to be sure. Its effect was felt in the last election. But I don't share your belief that this case is largely responsible for the problems. It's too recent, and the problems are far too old.

          I fully agree that campaign finance reform is a key issue that needs addressing, especially special interest money. THe situation is insane. Because it has always been like that, folks seem inclined to accept it... which to me is nuts.

          Yes, the problem is money.

          As an undergraduate, one of my economics professors was Thomas Sowell (yes, THE Sowell). He pointed out repeatedly that EVERYTHING was economic in nature, and rather enjoyed challenges to that assertion. During the time I was in his class, he was never proven wrong. I came away fully understanding the Golden Rule... "he who has the gold, makes the rules".

          The Golden Rule explains quite precisely why the financial industry is behind nearly every course of action that has created every problem that matters to us today. They are not behind issues that don't matter, like gays in the military and such. But those emotional topics do serve to divert attention and keep the masses occupied. Because they have huge money, they are able to perpetuate the status quo (or expand it, as in FEC v. Citizens United) to keep the door open for them to buy the Government.

          If the government was truly "just" incompetent, then once in a while they would do something that would work out in our favor.... just by chance.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Americans Supporting Communism

            Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
            Andy, I'm going bonkers, this topic usually arouses at least a few points I could counter, I'm impressed.

            You're correct on China, India, and American corporations, they are each independently doing what they must do to survive, which incidentally is also making American corporate executives filthy rich at our expense

            The average CEO salary is now almost 500 times the median salary, which was 50 times in 1980 and currently the greatest disparity of CEO to median range in the DEVELOPED world, plus corporations have $2 trillion in cash reserves currently on the books, dam we could use that cash right now....an argument for Teddy Roosevelt's progressive tax in there ever was.

            You're also correct that the fault lies in our government, for failing in it's Constitutional requirement to serve the welfare and posterity of the public over working to earn campaign bucks from their bribers (which is referred to as "bribery" in the Constitution)

            As for corporations outsourcing-

            Let's say Microsoft decides to "do the right thing for America" and fire it's Chinese workers, then rehire the more expensive Americans.

            Microsoft then loses it's competitive advantage over Apple, Cisco, Oracle, Hewlett Packard and the rest.

            In that sense, hiring Americans amounts to a corporate death sentence in free market competition.

            The problem, again, is our government's focus and the system of inadvertent bribery that has somehow infiltrated, and now controls it.

            I largely hold the Supreme Court responsible in light of "Citiizens United", allowing judges to decide whether they themselves are allowed to receive bribery is a glaring conflict of interest, unconstitutional for the fact the accepting money for favoritism is specifically prohibited in the Constitution.....Dred Scott all over again.

            If Senator "Smith" or Congressman "Johnson" decides to do something about this, maybe legislate for a broad sweeping law that requires higher taxes to all outsourcing corporations to offset lost revenues or create jobs, he cuts himself off from a very big source of career saving campaign funds.

            In this sense, even a politician trying to "do whats right for Americans" would be giving himself a career death sentence, I betcha Obama will be able to attest to this in two years, we now know the Democrats can, the healthcare sector bought us a whole new government.

            As for lobbying, again, I agree.

            There are lobbyists for non-profits, charities, womens rights, civil rights, the list is endless.

            The problem is money.

            We need to eliminate direct campaign finance and put all (tax deductible) political contributions into a general fund that's dispersed evenly to all qualified candidates regardless of party or ideology, each candidate should be only allowed the exact same amount of air time and campaign budget, regardless of personal money, to ensure they all get equal audience.

            Also, again, transparency is a HUGE problem.

            We should all be made aware of whom our leaders are spending time with, what jobs they've been offered after office (revolving door), and what former employers, affiliates, friends or family might benefit from their current position in government.(think Goldman Sachs, Hank Paulson, and half the SEC staff)

            It should be required by lobbyists that all meetings are documented and posted for public perusal so we all know who is lobbying who and what it is their lobbying for.
            Duck, I disagree that the demoicrats did something right for America and that's why they paid a price at the polls. I voted for President Obama in protest for what the Bush administration had done, but President Obama and the democrats did nothing but add nails to our coffin in my opinion. Their idea of healthcare reform was accomplished by the same dirty, crooked washington politics the republicans refined to an artform. The healthcare bill will be paid for by we the people, and I along with many others are not prepared for those new taxes( call it what you will). Cap and trade was another stupid and damaging idea on the democratic agenda and I thank God it did not pass.

            Our country's time is running out, we need to have Americans employed so that they can pay their own way. We need legal inhabitants who contribute to the tax base, along with the wealthy who seem to legally avoid their fair share. None of this has happened under either party, and probably will not happen. I am very certain there will be no meaningful reform of any kind. I am very certain there will be no turning this disaster around. The democrats did no good, the republicans will do no good, we are sunk. Make no mistake the democrats and republicans take turns pushing their own agenda and not what is good for the country or people. If you have any doubts just look at where we are right now and where we have been. No jobs, wars we can't afford, government programs we can't pay for, higher taxes.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Americans Supporting Communism

              Andy the government is economically incompetent by default.

              A great example being the close call we had with O'Donnell, apparently having a pretty face get's you to the primaries, imagine if she'd been able to shut up in debate about religion not being mentioned in the Constitution?

              I hope you saw the O'Donnell debate, it was so pathetic it was hilarious, she openly stated the Constitution makes no mention of religion, and something to the effect that we should mandate religion to all citizens in front of a room full of political science majors who immediately blew up laughing.

              Michelle Bachman is another stellar example, she stands firm against "pork", but isn't really sure what "pork" is when asked.

              To her credit, she does have good memorization skills, she's been able to memorize all the catchy slogans like "birther", "government takeover", "big government" and "death panels" that her corporate sponsors have mandated.

              Another one, I fell over laughing, watching Boehner once as he repeated a phrase from the Declaration of Independence while waving his pocket Constitution to the crowd telling them "You can read it in here!", He also called a news conference on the Day of the Citizens United decision to declare "This is a great day for all Americans!"

              This is the stuff our government is comprised of, bright, Barbie and Ken dolls.

              My point, any "chance" encounter with political decision-making that favors the public is very unlikely when almost all legislation is practically written by the lobbyist who's client pays the highest price and is a hell of a lot smarter than the political puppets they pay to vote for it,

              Our only purpose in all this is to become terrified and enraged over negative ads telling us about the horrors of "big government" and "death panels" when election time rolls around.

              This also illustrates my concern over abolishing the Fed, or letting it become a branch of government, (I still cling to the hope that some small part of the Fed actually functions "for the people", call me hopeless, I won't debate that)

              If we could force a way to only allow competent leadership with complete transparency I guess it might be a better idea....sick mental image of Christine O'Donnell running the Fed fighting it's way into my head, I'm going to have nightmares tonight.



              As for Stowell, holy Cow, for an economics professor, Laissez-faire doesn't strike me as your cup of tea, but you definitely got braggin' rights there.

              My preference when it comes to historic reference to current times would be Marriner Eccles.

              After being the Fed Chair stuck with the task of dealing with the Great Depression, he walked into the Job starting as a millionaire conservative banker in his 20's in 1934, to sounding like a far left, tree hugging Liberal by the end of his tenure in 1948 at about the time when hungry, homeless voters finally stopped buying the BS about Roosevelts' "socialism". (Both Teddy and FDR were called that in their time.)

              Bernanke telling Congress we need more stimulus the other day reminded me of him.

              Eccles' final conclusion on Capitalism and free market was nothing at all like a conservative at the end, he directly attributed the Great Depression to income disparity, stating that once credit began replacing real income, it was only a matter of time before the end game, where the median could no longer pay for basic needs without credit and their income fell short of affording the payments.

              Sound familiar?

              This is why I worry about the recent extremes in consumer debt versus the last 30 years relative to stagnant median income., add the new unemployment crisis and we may be back to 1930 all over again, where European defaults triggered the second leg down at exactly the wrong time. (very familiar)

              Reaganomics may welll have set us up perfectly for the exact same situation, With Bush putting the final nails in with the lowest upper class and corporate tax rates in over a hundred years and no actual ROI to the country (the trickle down is into other countries) isn't helping either as the government attempts to keep the majority above water, while corporate puppeteers are telling our government "stop spending, no taxes".


              As for my statements on CEO to median incomes.

              Median household (not individual) incomes averaged out to just over $50K in 2005, meaning approximately $26K avg per earner (assuming dual earners), maybe higher once specifically broken down by number of workers per household.

              You're correct about the Fortune 500, the average salary for CEO's on the S&P500 is $9.2 million, the overall average is roughly $2.5 million, roughly 100X the median individual at $26K, the actual statistic I was citing was from 2007, at 475 times the median (I took liberties with 500X), that has actually gone up since then where CEO's still have jobs, their salaries have actually increased in the last two years and the median average has dropped from unemployment.


              To clarify, I worded my statement on Citizens united incorrectly, I should have said I hold the Supreme Court accountable in light of that decision, we're not disagreeing about the fact that this problem has been around a very long time.

              The Decision serves to further ratify, embolden, blatant "in your face" political bribery at absolutely the worst time it could happen, we need the exact opposite right now.

              Last note, my recent attention has been on ratings agencies, namely S&P, Moody's, Fitch.

              After lying to the "free market" about CDO valuations and perpetrating the greatest scam in the history of Capitalism, they now wield the power to rate entire countries and threaten their credit ratings which then adversely affects interest rates on their debt, incurred largely as a direct result of those bad ratings in the first place.

              Europeans are now undergoing austerity, personal hardships, to circumvent rating companies warnings and we're next in line.

              Why are we allowing the S&P to rule the world?

              Shouldn't they be in criminal court defending fraud charges at this point?
              Last edited by DuckButter; 12-04-2010, 09:38 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                Duck, I disagree that the demoicrats did something right for America and that's why they paid a price at the polls. I voted for President Obama in protest for what the Bush administration had done, but President Obama and the democrats did nothing but add nails to our coffin in my opinion. Their idea of healthcare reform was accomplished by the same dirty, crooked washington politics the republicans refined to an artform. The healthcare bill will be paid for by we the people, and I along with many others are not prepared for those new taxes( call it what you will). Cap and trade was another stupid and damaging idea on the democratic agenda and I thank God it did not pass.

                Our country's time is running out, we need to have Americans employed so that they can pay their own way. We need legal inhabitants who contribute to the tax base, along with the wealthy who seem to legally avoid their fair share. None of this has happened under either party, and probably will not happen. I am very certain there will be no meaningful reform of any kind. I am very certain there will be no turning this disaster around. The democrats did no good, the republicans will do no good, we are sunk. Make no mistake the democrats and republicans take turns pushing their own agenda and not what is good for the country or people. If you have any doubts just look at where we are right now and where we have been. No jobs, wars we can't afford, government programs we can't pay for, higher taxes.
                Let me rephrase, "The Democrats did something more right.".

                Obama screwed the pooch in one fell swoop by cutting a back room deal with pharmaceuticals to prevent fair competition by allowing Canadian drug makers to sell in America, after he publicly lambasted lobbyists for flooding Washington.

                You may, or may not know that the Chamber of Commerce took advantage of the new Citizens United Supreme Court decision to spend tens of millions of "anonymously donated" money in national ad campaigns to slam the Dems.

                Coincidentally a "leak" showed Rupert Murdoch and Koch industries were the biggest anonymous donors to the Chamber.

                They did not spend the money to slam Republicans, just Democrats, the message was loud and clear there, big money hates Democrats right now, and in case you missed it, big money wants things to stay the way they are.

                This was no coincidence, Big business does not want higher taxes, corporate healthcare does not want regulations or a public option to cut into profits, BP wants to get back to drilling, regardless of what happens to the food chain in the gulf. (I'm cringing at the thought of what shrimp is going to cost this season after the spill cut shrimp populations, I like shrimp)

                To be clear, I voted McCain, I was in this forum attesting to what a great candidate he was (even giving a nod to his selecting Palin, until the Couric interview and "Russia from my window"), but Obama has done more to impress me while the Republicans have outright shocked me with their antics these past two years.

                As for political preference, I dislike both Republicans and Democrats who cater to bribery, which by default means I dislike every one in office right now, but to the Dems credit they knew they were risking big losses in the midterms by fighting for FINREG's, healthcare reform, and stimulus spending to salvage the Bush disaster.

                The whole time, Republicans stood unanimously in the way of progress with constant filibusters for the sole purpose of spiting the Dems regardless what the people needed.

                I won't debate the crap we got for a healthcare bill, we desperately needed a public option to induce competition in pricing and lower labor costs for global trade, but Republicans adamantly refused to allow one claiming a government takeover, when it was a government "option".

                We're now still officially the only developed country in the world that doesn't offer basic healthcare because cost cutting hurts profits, which then hurts campaign funds.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                  Interesting. I am a lifelong repubican, and very strict constitutionalist, strong strong strong anti-keynesian, and support domestic manufacturing, and supporter of the strict personal liberties guaranteed and intended by the forefathers --all of which in my mind is the true definition of a conservative.

                  I am sad to admit that I voted Obama, but did not vote in general Democrat. I voted for O not because I bought into the "change" nonsense, but because I was utterly disgusted with Bush et al in all regards - especially the pointless loss of life and blatant lies bout WMDs. McCain, who I for a long time thought would be a great president, actually forced my decision not to vote for him. First, he lined up with Bush too closely and that really was the major issue. Second, he jumped on the bandwagon (along with Obama) in support of Paulsen. Third, he selected Palin... a move that I considered from the start to be a totally irresponsible political move aimed to appeal to women voters (even though it didn't really work). All this severely tarnished his integrity IMO. Moreover, I was forced to admit that the Mr. McCain was simply not smart enough to be POTUS.

                  I didn't go in having high hopes for Obama, and it wasn't an easy decision to vote for him. Unfortunately, IMO he's proven to be a far worse president than I could have predicted. 2012 can't come soon enough. It doesn't mean that McCain would have been better. If I had to do it again, I would probably have to jump off the Golden Gate. Obama is bankrupting the economy and all of us personally, and apparently his only vision has little to do with getting the US back on a track consistent with traditional American values and principles. But that doesn't make McCain's support for Bush wars or his selection of Palin as his backup any more justifiable or palatable.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                    Relating to the Constitution, freedom, liberty and conservationism, I strongly suggest a web search For Teddy Roosevelt's discussion of Plutonomy.

                    By todays standards, Roosevelt was a hardcore Liberal, strange how time changes interpretations of politics, for that matter, Lincoln was a Republican too.

                    As distasteful as I may feel about Michael Moore's whining or complaining, he does make a point in his movie "Capitalism.." that there's no mention of any rights to a free market or form of Capitalism in the Constitution, specifically to where it could overwhelm protecting the welfare and posterity of the public, which actually is the intent of the Constitution.

                    That said, I will agree Capitalism would be a part of the intent, a "free" market, but with strings attached should it become a problem for the welfare or posterity of the public.

                    The Constitution never intended a minority caste rule, yet if massive, powerful entities are pulling string's and controlling our government, we're told that intervention to stop this is an infringement of their freedom, "citizens united" for example.

                    Interesting times we live in, how does someone with a strong belief in personal liberty, freedom and the Constitution contend with a plutocratic takeover of their Democratic government?

                    As bad as the far left can be in the form communism or extreme socialism, the other extreme to the far right is fascism (WW2 Nazi Germany and Italy), either extreme is not Democracy.
                    Last edited by DuckButter; 12-07-2010, 06:04 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                      I do agree with you on this point.

                      There is no true 100% free market, but there can be a market that operates more or less in accordance with free market principles. A free market does not mean that an active government is not required to work in the interest of keeping it working relatively free from perversion. Our Government has forgotten how to do that. All they seem to understand is that money means re-election and therefore they need to cater to the money.

                      The ruling class is a bad thing, very bad. IMO the culprit is the financial community - not corporate America, not the Dems nor the Repubs. The financial people don't care about politics. They buy both parties equally so their bets are hedged. Which is why it makes no difference which party is in power, the same disastrous policies end up being followed.
                      Last edited by Andy_M; 12-07-2010, 07:09 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                        Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                        I do agree with you on this point.

                        There is no true 100% free market, but there can be a market that operates more or is in accordance with free market principles. A free market does not mean that an active government is not required to work in the interest of keeping it working from perversion. Our Government has forgotten how to do that. All they seem to understand is that money means re-election and therefore they need to cater to the money.

                        The ruling class is a bad thing, very bad. IMO the culprit is the financial community - not corporate America, not the Dems nor the Repubs. The financial people don't care about politics. They buy both parties equally so their bets are hedged. Which is why it makes no difference which party is in power, the same disastrous policies end up being followed.


                        I feel goofy clicking that "thanks" icon.

                        It's feels more genuine to take the time to say it.

                        Thank you, perfectly said.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                          Give Mexico to China. That way China will provide border control. Imagine how cheap stuff would be from china when you dont hafta pay all that shipping So I say give china mexico and call it even. We wouldn't have any debt and it would solve the immigration problem to our south.
                          Vote Thematser in 2012

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                          • #43
                            Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                            Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                            Give Mexico to China. That way China will provide border control. Imagine how cheap stuff would be from china when you dont hafta pay all that shipping So I say give china mexico and call it even. We wouldn't have any debt and it would solve the immigration problem to our south.
                            Vote Thematser in 2012
                            There would be no drug problems in mexico either, and no drugs coming across the border.

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