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  • Americans Supporting Communism

    Such Americans exist! They look like you and I. I happen to be one of them , are you? There are plenty of terms and labels being throw around to define the agenda of Americans who vote republican or democrat, same thing applies to folks who either believe or deny global warming.

    Gone are the days when you could respectfully disagree with your President without being called "unPatriotic", but there was a time when dissent was a right, a freedom, a hallmark of our republic!

    Socialism, liberalism, capitolism, conseravatism, I have one for both sides to think about, communism. Did we lose tens of thousands of brave young American men fighting to stop the spread of communism in vietnam? I recall we did, so when and how did it become American to borrow money and strengthen such a regime with our trade?

    I share the guilt with all of you who voted over the years for either political party, because legislators on both sides allowed and encouraged the transfer of millions of our jobs from a democracy to a communist country. Our legislators who we voted in repeatedly chose to sit quietly as factory after factory, business after business, job after job left America.

    Here we are, a democratic country on the verge of an economic meltdown and who is to blame? Do you really want to fight over global warming? Do you really feel it necessary to insult one another over the right to believe opposing theories?A grave for assange and one for gore won't be enough!
    Remember the line, "I have seen the enemy and he is us"? There are no innocents here, we are all guilty of supporting and promoting communism.

    Unless someone can prove their party refused money from communist china, or did something to stop the loss of American jobs to communist china, or the enrichment of communist china from our consumer dollars, I accuse democrats and republicans alike of aiding and abetting the enemy!

  • #2
    Re: Americans Supporting Communism

    Rut-roh, I hope I didn't add fuel to fire here.

    I agree with your gist, which (I think) refers to incendiary, hyperbolic & fearful media embellishments to serve a hidden agenda.

    I.E. a news anchor, or TV shock-jock angry that his $1 mil salary may be subject to higher taxes infers that "Obama is a socialist" for increasing taxes, or claims he's destroying jobs.

    With all the rampant fear mongering over "socialism", most people don't realize that "socialism" is a component of almost any form of government.

    In short, a stop sign at the local intersection is an example of socialism, where "big government" is telling you what to do, not to fly into the intersection without looking first.

    The opposite of socialism is Fascism, where a minority dictates the law, also known as Oligarchy, Aristocracy, Plutonomy or the ultimate - Monarchy, which is what the original Tea Party stood up against.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Americans Supporting Communism

      Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
      Rut-roh, I hope I didn't add fuel to fire here.

      I agree with your gist, which (I think) refers to incendiary, hyperbolic & fearful media embellishments to serve a hidden agenda.

      .
      Unfortunately, literally meant everything I wrote. No media embellishments, no hidden agenda! We can blame greedy capitalists for taking jobs away from Americans but we voted in the legislators who allowed it to happen. Can anyone deny that the lack of government intervention allowed this exodus of jobs and in trun the strengthening of a communist power?

      Duck, I'm not smart enough to see a hidden agenda with the media or my government. I see folks in power who through their actions gained wealth at the expense of the American public. A simple person can understand how all this played out over the course of several decades.

      My question is, why kill tens of thousands of Americans with the excuse of fighting communism only to go into debt with communists, and ruin your economy by providing communists with your jobs and consumer wealth?

      Did our legislators not anticipate a problem down the road? Did we the people not see a pattern of factories and businesses closing down and moving away?

      We can talk about global warming, and insult one another over whose scientifically and politically right but at the end of the day we allowed all this to happen. We allowed a communist country to become a giant, our master, our provider. For those of you still stubborn (our partner in global trade with open markets and free trade) excuse me if I can't stop laughing.

      Go right ahead and dig a grave for al gore, dig one for yourself while you have the shovel and strength. Most folks still don't get it!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Americans Supporting Communism

        China may be thought of as being a communist society but in actuality not so much.......Why China Is No Longer A Communist Country Why stop at accusing just Democrats and Republicans, by your logic, every single person who has ever purchased a product that was made in China is guilty of "aiding and abetting" this perceived enemy. "If any of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone......."
        Teach your kids about taxes..........eat 30 percent of their ice cream.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Americans Supporting Communism

          Frank, trust me, you sdon't want to support Communism.

          You're taking things from one extreme to another.

          Any form of government, from Communism on the extreme far left, to Fascism on the extreme far right, is very, very bad.

          An example, what could be happening to America right now in a lesser degree, would be the Weimar Republic.

          Germany had severe economic distress back in the 1920's, government intervention led to hyperinflation, which made things much worse, citizens were starving.

          The anger and outrage led to something completely opposite and extreme, a far right wing Fascist government led by a tyrant bent on blaming Jeweish merchants for all that was wrong.

          That leader was Hitler.

          Contemporary shock jocks like Beck, Limbaugh or O'reilly make me think of what 1920's Germany might have been like, an angry public that didn't understand the complex economics of what had happened, looking for guidance and finding the perfect man for the job, who in turn gave them a target for their anger....Jews.

          Capitalism and the way it promotes competition works, the problem is that it needs rules and regulations to alloow it to continue the competition without monopolies, just like traffic sign or stop lights for traffic and highways, otherwise we have highways where only 18 wheelers rule by crushing passenger vehicles that aren't fast enough to escape.

          Trust me Frank, you don't want Communism, if you think our government is bad now with special interests and self serving agenda's as is, you definitely wouldn't be happy with the opposite extreme.

          Right now, the biggest change we need is transparency, we need to know what's been going on behind closed doors that has allowed monopolies to crush the thriving competitive nature of capitalism.
          Last edited by DuckButter; 12-07-2010, 07:01 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Americans Supporting Communism

            Originally posted by BadgerDave View Post
            China may be thought of as being a communist society but in actuality not so much.......Why China Is No Longer A Communist Country Why stop at accusing just Democrats and Republicans, by your logic, every single person who has ever purchased a product that was made in China is guilty of "aiding and abetting" this perceived enemy. "If any of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone......."

            True, by definition China has evolved away from Communism and more to a Socialist state, a step away from Democracy since the Tienneman Square generation.

            The fact that China has a publicly traded market is proof of this, but China does still have the darker side of Communism, where the government has the right to cart you away to prison or put you to death in extreme situations without the due process Democracy requires.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Americans Supporting Communism

              Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
              Frank, trust me, you sdon't want to support Communism.

              You're taking things from one extreme to another.

              Any form of government, from Communism on the extreme far left, to Fascism on the extreme far right, is very, very bad.

              An example, what could be happening to America right now in a lesser degree, would be the Weimar Republic.

              Germany had severe economic distress back in the 1920's, government intervention led to hyperinflation, which made things much worse, citizens were starving.

              The anger and outrage led to something completely opposite and extreme, a far right wing Fascist government led by a tyrant bent on blaming Jeweish merchants for all that was wrong.

              That leader was Hiutler.

              Contemporary shock jocks like Beck, Limbaugh or O'reilly make me think of what 1920's Germany might have been like, an angry public that didn't understand the complex economics of what had happened, looking for guidance and finding the perfect man for the job, who in turn gave them a target for their anger....Jews.

              Capitalism and the way it promotes competition works, the problem is that it needs rules and regulations to alloow it to continue the competition without monopolies, just like traffic sign or stop lights for traffic and highways, otherwise we have highways where only 18 wheelers rule by crushing passenger vehicles that aren't fast enough to escape.

              Trust me Frank, you don't want Communism, if you think our government is bad now with special interests and self serving agenda's as is, you definitely wouldn't be happy with the opposite extreme.

              Right now, the biggest change we need is transparency, we need to know what's been going on behind closed doors that has allowed monopolies to crush the thriving competitive nature of capitalism.
              Duck, I can't figure out how you deducted I want communism from my posts? I was simply pointing out how both the democrats and republicans have promoted a strong communist china by allowing the exodus of American jobs and forcing our consumer dollars into their economy.

              I'm glad to see someone admit communsit china has a dark side. I don't believe they are close to democracy and will crush any efforts towards similar rights and freedoms we enjoy.

              Embrace my sarcasm because while some folks think they are good Americans, they are in fact nothing of the sort! Party allegiance would make more sense if our county and we the people actually did better under one in particular. Neither has anything to be proud of in my opinion!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                Crap Frank, I apparently misunderstood.

                I'm just relieved to know you're not a damned pinko!

                Seriously, I reread the original post.

                The way to look at foreign trade with China isn't that we have empowered communism, but that we have helped a third world communist nation arise to first world capitalism, away from communism and into free market enterprise.

                The problems America now faces aren't China's doing, but our own.

                As we opened foreign trade agreements, our government failed to factor important variables relevant to America's ability to compete with wage requirements off shore. (though ironically many unions and Americans at the street level warned this was going to happen)

                They just assumed we were going to be outsourcing our more unwanted menial jobs which is what happened until recently with the rise of an educated middle class in China and India.

                China's social policies, such as availing college to all citizens who can pass an aptitude test, having socialized healthcare that costs a very small fraction of America's, shows up in the wage requirements for a Chinese worker vs an American, we have this problem with India as well, Indian healthcare is dirt cheap compared to ours.

                This is why healthcare reform is so important for job creation, multinational corporations are opening shop in China or India to take advantage of the massive difference in labor costs compared to America, our healthcare and education is the most expensive in the world and most developed countries offer these things the way we offer grade school.

                Meanwhile, the healthcare lobby spends countless millions to fight a public option that would crush profits and lower costs for the average American.

                Again, this isn't China's problem, it's ours.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                  Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                  Crap Frank, I apparently misunderstood.

                  I'm just relieved to know you're not a damned pinko!

                  Seriously, I reread the original post.

                  The way to look at foreign trade with China isn't that we have empowered communism, but that we have helped a third world communist nation arise to first world capitalism, away from communism and into free market enterprise.

                  The problems America now faces aren't China's doing, but our own.

                  As we opened foreign trade agreements, our government failed to factor important variables relevant to America's ability to compete with wage requirements off shore. (though ironically many unions and Americans at the street level warned this was going to happen)

                  They just assumed we were going to be outsourcing our more unwanted menial jobs which is what happened until recently with the rise of an educated middle class in China and India.

                  China's social policies, such as availing college to all citizens who can pass an aptitude test, having socialized healthcare that costs a very small fraction of America's, shows up in the wage requirements for a Chinese worker vs an American, we have this problem with India as well, Indian healthcare is dirt cheap compared to ours.

                  This is why healthcare reform is so important for job creation, multinational corporations are opening shop in China or India to take advantage of the massive difference in labor costs compared to America, our healthcare and education is the most expensive in the world and most developed countries offer these things the way we offer grade school.

                  Meanwhile, the healthcare lobby spends countless millions to fight a public option that would crush profits and lower costs for the average American.

                  Again, this isn't China's problem, it's ours.
                  Duck we disagree on some things, but agree that it was "our" doing that got us down here and communist china up there! I think a near idiot could have figured out the difference in labor cost along with the absense of the EPA and OSHA required some thinking on our feet. Were our legisaltors that stupid, or did they profit in some other way?

                  We don't agree on healthcare reform either. To begin with there would not even be a discussion until the jobs isssue was resolved, government funds or clinics would be available to those in need temporarily. Folks here illegally would be shown to the border or nearest airport, any country refusing to accept their citizens would be charged in some way. The free ride that we tax payers support, could have helped Americans. We don't need to follow the model of a communist nation in treating illegals, but we could learn from many of our allies.

                  Forget about a public option. Take insurance companies completely out of the healthcare picture. Those who can afford healthcare can pay for it on their own and those who can't get assistance that we pay for through taxes. Yes, the haves will pay for the have nots. We just won't pay for the illegals!

                  No more middle men in healthcare period!!!!!! But first, please, bring back manufacturing and stop getting sidetracked as if we have all the time in the world. Global warming can wait, must wait, focus on the present.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                    Duck we disagree on some things, but agree that it was "our" doing that got us down here and communist china up there! I think a near idiot could have figured out the difference in labor cost along with the absense of the EPA and OSHA required some thinking on our feet. Were our legisaltors that stupid, or did they profit in some other way?
                    Frank, let me give you a new toy to play with - opensecrets.org

                    If I'm a congressman up for election next year and my funds are low, but I know a millionaire is going to run against e with a nasty barrage of negative campaigns, I better figure out a way to save my job and find the money to fight back with my own ads.

                    If GE wants to be exempted from paying taxes, (they paid absolutely nothing in '09) they hire a lobbyist to promote their cause, they also offer to pay for my campaign ads and donate to my campaign fund, I then agree to vote to let them pay no taxes, or allow them to hire in China with no tax ramifications.

                    It's completely legal, this is what the buzz is about with the citizens united Supreme Court fiasco, the judges, coincidentally, are also allowed to receive contributions, they ruled that bribery is legal as long as it's called campaign funding....by-by Constitution, Democracy.


                    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                    We don't agree on healthcare reform either. To begin with there would not even be a discussion until the jobs isssue was resolved, government funds or clinics would be available to those in need temporarily. Folks here illegally would be shown to the border or nearest airport, any country refusing to accept their citizens would be charged in some way. The free ride that we tax payers support, could have helped Americans. We don't need to follow the model of a communist nation in treating illegals, but we could learn from many of our allies.
                    You have to understand the underlying causes for wage differentials between us and China or India that's causing the exodus of our jobs, healthcare is America's single most expensive cost, it has a direct correlation to the fact the multinational corporations are sending jobs off shore.

                    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                    Forget about a public option. Take insurance companies completely out of the healthcare picture. Those who can afford healthcare can pay for it on their own and those who can't get assistance that we pay for through taxes. Yes, the haves will pay for the have nots. We just won't pay for the illegals!

                    No more middle men in healthcare period!!!!!! But first, please, bring back manufacturing and stop getting sidetracked as if we have all the time in the world. Global warming can wait, must wait, focus on the present.
                    Point on your statement on illegals, the healthcare bill prohibits free care for non-citizens, but that doesn't stop an anonymous person from getting care at the E.R. like anyone else, this is why healthcare is already somewhat socialized, we all pay for those folks any way.

                    On eliminating the middlemen, a great point, though China has socialized healthcare, India's trick is direct billing, no insurance companies.

                    When you get surgery in India, the hospital works out a payment plan, office visits for standard checkups are dirt cheap because all the middle men and overpaid salesmen's salaries aren't there.

                    Surgery in India, by the way, is roughly five to ten times less expensive than in America.

                    This solution was shot down in America when it was decided that the Sherman anti-trust act cannot be applied to healthcare they way it applies to all other sectors, they're allowed to price goods and services however they see fit, or they stop making certain political contributions, if you get my point.

                    Frank. lastly and most important, I get your point on bringing back manufacturing to America.

                    Let's take Apple supplier Foxconn for example, if we want those jobs back you need to figure out how to get Americans to do the same work for 12 hours a day at the rate they pay in Taiwan, $0.31 an hour in USD.

                    Last edited by DuckButter; 12-02-2010, 09:01 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                      Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                      Frank, let me give you a new toy to play with - opensecrets.org

                      If I'm a congressman up for election next year and my funds are low, but I know a millionaire is going to run against e with a nasty barrage of negative campaigns, I better figure out a way to save my job and find the money to fight back with my own ads.

                      If GE wants to be exempted from paying taxes, (they paid absolutely nothing in '09) they hire a lobbyist to promote their cause, they also offer to pay for my campaign ads and donate to my campaign fund, I then agree to vote to let them pay no taxes, or allow them to hire in China with no tax ramifications.

                      It's completely legal, this is what the buzz is about with the citizens united Supreme Court fiasco, the judges, coincidentally, are also allowed to receive contributions, they ruled that bribery is legal as long as it's called campaign funding....by-by Constitution, Democracy.




                      You have to understand the underlying causes for wage differentials between us and China or India that's causing the exodus of our jobs, healthcare is America's single most expensive cost, it has a direct correlation to the fact the multinational corporations are sending jobs off shore.



                      Point on your statement on illegals, the healthcare bill prohibits free care for non-citizens, but that doesn't stop an anonymous person from getting care at the E.R. like anyone else, this is why healthcare is already somewhat socialized, we all pay for those folks any way.

                      On eliminating the middlemen, a great point, though China has socialized healthcare, India's trick is direct billing, no insurance companies.

                      When you get surgery in India, the hospital works out a payment plan, office visits for standard checkups are dirt cheap because all the middle men and overpaid salesmen's salaries aren't there.

                      Surgery in India, by the way, is roughly five to ten times less expensive than in America.

                      This solution was shot down in America when it was decided that the Sherman anti-trust act cannot be applied to healthcare they way it applies to all other sectors, they're allowed to price goods and services however they see fit, or they stop making certain political contributions, if you get my point.

                      Frank. lastly and most important, I get your point on bringing back manufacturing to America.

                      Let's take Apple supplier Foxconn for example, if we want those jobs back you need to figure out how to get Americans to do the same work for 12 hours a day at the rate they pay in Taiwan, $0.31 an hour in USD.

                      Duck, if we knew who was a citizen and who was not we could cut our costs.

                      I highly doubt the level of healthcare or surgery in china or india is close to what we have here.

                      My solution to the $0.31 taiwanese hourly rate of pay is simple, tack on a $20.00 an hour tarrif for any of those parts or products they want to bring into our country.

                      Duck, I'm a firm believer in doing what works and not what sounds good or is painless. What we have now is not working. Not the situation with illegals, not the trade deficit, healthcare, politics, nothing. The fixes necessary probably will not happen and if our country does fall into a depression, Apple and the rest of the folks selling electronics to our consumers will be in a world of hurt. They will discover that $0.31 an hour while it made good economic sense compared to paying an American worker $16.00 an hour for the same work, was really a death sentence for them. You see the American consumer is near death and doesn't know it, when he takes his last buying breath businesses like Apple will discover they no longer have a consumer base. You see Duck, the folks making $0.31 are a real bargain in terms of labor, but they make lousy consumers for all your goods.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                        My question is, why kill tens of thousands of Americans with the excuse of fighting communism only to go into debt with communists, and ruin your economy by providing communists with your jobs and consumer wealth?
                        why indeed... why go to war because another country wants to operate under a different economic and social system...

                        The fact that China has a publicly traded market is proof of this, but China does still have the darker side of Communism, where the government has the right to cart you away to prison or put you to death in extreme situations without the due process Democracy requires.
                        but that has nothing to do with communism that's the rule of law by which one particular state operates by, every state has it's darker side even the US...

                        They will discover that $0.31 an hour while it made good economic sense compared to paying an American worker $16.00 an hour for the same work, was really a death sentence for them. You see the American consumer is near death and doesn't know it, when he takes his last buying breath businesses like Apple will discover they no longer have a consumer base. You see Duck, the folks making $0.31 are a real bargain in terms of labor, but they make lousy consumers for all your goods.
                        this is also the reason americans enjoy an artificial lifestyle living off the labours of the third world for many decades...I'm sure the banana, coffee bean pickers and oil workers of the third world would love to be paid $16 an hour too but americans want everything cheap at someone else's expense...and often those third world workers are being paid by american corporate giants, so what you want is permanent status quo where americans live in a utopia and third world slaves away in poverty supplying you with cheap products and not competing with americans on products americans make...

                        this is the cost of globalization, the third world will improve it's quality of life and the US will decline it's unavoidable...
                        Last edited by wyly; 12-03-2010, 12:21 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                          Duck, if we knew who was a citizen and who was not we could cut our costs..
                          We actually had this debate during the McCain/Obama race.
                          McCain had an interesting monkey wrench to throw at that idea.

                          The costs for erecting fences, hiring workers, and rounding up and transporting them back would bankrupt us.

                          McCain's idea, if someone wants to be an American so badly they're willing to make the sacrifices many do, just let them apply for citizenship, they then become productive tax payers, problem solved.

                          "give us your tired, your poor, your hungry, your huddled masses"



                          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                          I highly doubt the level of healthcare or surgery in china or india is close to what we have here.
                          Two pints here, the standards for India are the same, the quality is the same, the price is a small fraction of ours because they cut out middlemen, they have no insurance because healthcare is affordable, they also don't cater to the constant flow of frivolous lawsuits like the American legal system does

                          China and Canada have the same complaints that you'd expect from a government run system, you wind up waiting too long or the red tape is often ridiculous.

                          Tell any of the millions of Americans who go witjhout healthcare because they can't afford it, they won't care, lower quality is better than nothing.

                          Better yet, tell that to the families of any of the 40 thousand Americans that die every year directly resulting from having no health care at all.


                          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                          My solution to the $0.31 taiwanese hourly rate of pay is simple, tack on a $20.00 an hour tarrif for any of those parts or products they want to bring into our country.

                          Consider this, Foxconn provides a single component for the I-phone, using workers at $0.31 per hour.

                          Turning that into $20 per hour means roughly 60X more cost in producing that single component.

                          Multiply 60X times every component to an I-phone, then factor every product you own that's made off shores (everything, basically).

                          Can you see the problem now?

                          It's just not a simple problem, just like economic growth isn't all supply side theory, there has to be balance and America has been extremely unbalanced for over 30 years, using consumer credit to put off the inevitable and now consumer credit is maxed. (I might refer you to do a web search for the Fed chair through the Great Depression, Marriner Eccles, he had a straightforward theory on the cause and effects of the Great Depression, let's just say he's probably rolling over in his grave right now.)

                          This credit max was first exhibited in '08 when it only took 5% of the sub-prime/liar loans to default to trigger the recession.

                          Now we're in a pinch, as the government is baclked into a corner to provide stimulus to offset the mass consumer deleveraging (paying down debt) that's so desperately needed, all the while some are talking austerity (cutting spending, like unemployment insurance) at the exact wrong time.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                            this is turning into a book...

                            time to start downloading it to my kindle

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Americans Supporting Communism

                              Originally posted by mrs. westcoast View Post
                              this is turning into a book...

                              time to start downloading it to my kindle
                              Hey you!

                              Tell the hubby I say hi, cell phone meets toilet = lost numbers.

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