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  • #31
    Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

    Originally posted by Flux View Post
    I would give you a common sense, factual rebuttal, but I'm thinking heavy meds would be better off for you.
    "I should give you a rebuttal, based on facts as well as common sense, but I believe powerful medication may be better suited for you."

    A much more intelligent form of response that is much more fitting among the high level discussion concerning ideas, ideals, and philosophy. But don't worry, repairing things that include even the occasional grammar error is something I enjoy performing.

    Oh, to answer your question regarding quoting an Italian dictator: We are seeing it now. There is an increasing number of business leaders joining the public sector to include the highest levels of government. What should be the obvious result of this? Well, such people will have the natural tendency of running the government more like a business. This all sounds well and good now doesn't it? Well guess what, a government is not a business, it is a public service! The government has a hard time doling out the funds to the populace as it is, imagine how hard it will be when it is profit driven! Also, what would a failed, disgraced business leader to do to stay employed? Why, get elected of course! My greatest fear is the potential election of unemployed Ivy League graduates entering regulating offices, following the behavioral context that the money being spent is in fact their own, when it clearly isn't, thus resulting in needless budget cuts to the point of not being able to perform the functions they were duely elected to perform.

    So in your eyes, one form of facism is okay, but not another? So which is it? Which one do you want?

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

      Well, I think we might be getting a little carried away with some of this. Plumbing codes are not socialism. Neither are traffic lights, building codes, EPA regulations, consumer protection laws, etc. A body of laws constitutes a governed society, as opposed to anarchy. Laws are not socialism, even if they apply to regulate production.

      The strict definition of socialism is an economic system of societal ownership of the means of production (industry) and centralized control thereof to serve the best interest of society. A looser modern definition (which did not replace the strict one but is merely a different implementation of socialism) is that socialism is state control of capital under the framework of a market economy.

      BTW, communism is not extreme socialism, it is the same old socialism with a twist. In socialism, you're still able to be paid according to your contribution. In communism, everyone is the same - all a member of the proletariate, or working class. The Government doles out the wealth according to need, the idea is that everyone gets the about the same standard of living, when (the party decides ) you need a doctor you get it, when (the party decides) your kid needs to get trained to be a doctor then that happens, etc. The fundamental problem with communism is, there is little incentive to bust *ss because if you do you won't do any better than if you just try to get by coasting, and you don't have any say in more or less anything. Communism relies on peer pressure (and soldiers with guns) to get people to put out. Stupid system. Sorry, Iknow these people are in all the books, but the inventors of the idea were clueless about the way people operate. Which is why for all the ballyhoo, no one really uses the communist system. It only works in theory, and even then only if you ignore human nature.

      For the record, we do not have and never have had democracy in the United States. What we have is a democratic republic - not rule by the people, but governance by elected representation.

      But even so, it should be clear that the United States was not founded to be socialist in nature. Society and the Government of the United States does not own and control the means of production. Well... more on that later. There have been exceptions, but not many as a percentage of the total assemblage of means of production in the US. We did own GM for a while, right? This was, I believe, technically illegal. There are also publicly owned utilities that somehow skirt the notion, but in general while they may be in your shorts (I'm not referring to the TSA) and driving you crazy, the Government is not in control of your operation, you are. You run it, you take the profits or losses, and you spend or reinvest as you see fit. That is not socialism, the rules and regulatiuons are not socialism, They are rules and regulations.

      Obviously, plumbing codes and traffic lights, while imposing requirements that are in the interest of society, are not anything remotely like societal or central ownership and control of the means of production. One can whine about our laws (I like to do this, and did even more when I owned a smokestack business) as socialist, but they aren't. Laws cannot be socialist, only an economic system can be socialist.

      This doesn't mean that the United States has not been creeping towards something that has elements of socialism. Our country uses fiat currency (i.e., not convertible or backed at any level by hard assets of the Government). This means that the valuation for that currency is under the control of the Government... or in the case of the US, its delegate, the central bank. To control value, there are a few knobs to turn. Two powerful ones to that are very openly manipulated are the interest rate and the money supply. And of course the tax code is extraordinarily complex and is changed very often a the whim of the Government. So there you have it, control of capital in the framework of a market economy -- the modern, loose definition of socialism. However, it is not strictly socialism since the knobs are not controlled by the people or by a Government strictly motivated to behave in the best interest of the people. Some would argue that because the control resides with an elite group of megalomaniacs, it is more like fascism than socialism. Of course, even a fascist regime is generally designed to achieve the advancement of the society (albeit via painful means). That isn't happening in this country... we have the elite group at the top draining the wealth and selling off the industrial base for their own gain.

      So the truth is, we have neither socialism nor fascism.

      What we have is just old-fashioned organized crime.
      Last edited by Andy_M; 12-08-2010, 11:15 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

        Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
        Well, I think we might be getting a little carried away with some of this. Plumbing codes are not socialism.
        I almost fell off my chair when he posted that.

        I actually didn't have the heart to correct his glaring mistake he made with that, because he honestly believes it.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

          Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
          So in your eyes, one form of facism is okay, but not another? So which is it? Which one do you want?
          I'm not for any form of "fascism". (here I corrected YOUR grammar)

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

            As I see it, Duck is smart, well read, and makes many good points. I don't always agree or interpret things the same, but I do respect.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

              Originally posted by Flux View Post
              I'm not for any form of "fascism". (here I corrected YOUR grammar)
              Actually, you corrected his spelling.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

                Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                Actually, you corrected his spelling.
                I know that, wanted to see how sharp he is.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

                  Originally posted by Flux View Post
                  I would give you a common sense, factual rebuttal, but I'm thinking heavy meds would be better off for you.

                  On that note, the colonies had absolutely no right whatsoever to defy the personal rights and property of King George III, nor defy the British East India Tea Company for seeking the just rewards for their success.

                  We need to give the Queen a call, let her know we owe her a country for unjustly taking from her ancestor what wasn't ours to take in the first place under the guise of "liberty, freedom".

                  But first, let's salute the Flag of the united states of Rupert Murdoch and the Koch brothers, while we offer our lives to fight in defense of the profits of Boeing, Raytheon and Haliburton and turn over our properties to Goldman Sachs and Citibank to reward each for their their "successes".

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

                    Originally posted by Abbott View Post
                    Yes they are saying prices rising all over the country. Oil is up to $90.00 per barrel.
                    Oil has been at 90.00/ barrel, for a long while, the biggest issue it that. They ( the goverment) are spending so much on this war that they are only digging deeper into pockets that have been empty for more than a century. As a nation we are more than a trillion dollars in debt. Over the past nine years that we have been at war they have been spending about a billion plus and trust me we (the Soldiers) dont see much even with the old pay raises, which was never more than 50.00/month. It all goes to civilian contractors most of which make 6 figures a year for about six months work and its tax-free. And to be honest with you this isnt a war we are fighting its a police action. For the most part if you ask any deployed Soldier what is there over-all main objective...uhh...umm Kill the enemy, secure and clear a certain route, rebuild this or that. And really all this war is doing is hurting the people, the country we are fighting for because so if you look at all the wars through out our history the rich get richer off the war while, the common worker, blue collars get laid off, white collars take pay cuts and try to mantain their accustom lifestyles, which cause them to go deeper in debt. Also paying with you bank card for everything. I cant tell you how many times a day I see people swipe their cards for a soda, fast food, a pack of smokes. Yes it is more convenit but it takes more cash out of the economey and you say a dollar use to be worth more. Well think about that a dollar use to be back by a certain weight of gold, then it got changed to silver....but now it is backed by nothing but " In God We Trust". Also with they swiping of plastic it makes you think less before you buy anything. Think about this for a second, If all you had in you wallet was a 100.00 dollar bill would you brake that for a soda and a candy bar, for a burger? Well next time you go to swipe you card think that this is a dollar bill worth (amount in your account) would you brake a bill that large for what you are about to purchase? And as far as hurting the economy, in the us patent office there have been patents bought up by the companies that would lose money if they ever got produce. Carborators that get 90/100/120 miles per gallon, batteries that never run out of juice large enough to power houses, towns, cities. Instead of giving the top 10% of america tax cuts and letting everyone else pay more, saying its so they can create more jobs. Tax them more, give the little guys and gals a brake. Yes I as a Soldier get paid by you paying taxes, but then again I pay myself as unless Im deployed I get taxed also. So really when I get paid its taxed twice, isnt it? And people this war isnt going to end anytime soon, this isnt even what should be called a war. I mean you cant tell who the bad guys are they look like everyone else, until they are firing at you and they are never in large groups out looking for us the sit back and wait for us to patrol by. And it seems to me that nobody can say what will end the war, or who we have to capture to win it. And every year we are there prices and taxes will raise a little by little and unless you pay close attention you wont notice it. But as gas rises it will push the price of everything else to pay for the fuel to drive the truck from factory to warehouse, warehouse to distobution hub, hub to store, you to drive there and buy it, then take it home.
                    FOR EVERY JOB THERE IS A TOOL, FOR EVERY TOOL THERE IS A POWERTOOL...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

                      Originally posted by Soldier94A View Post
                      Oil has been at 90.00/ barrel, for a long while, the biggest issue it that. They ( the goverment) are spending so much on this war that they are only digging deeper into pockets that have been empty for more than a century. As a nation we are more than a trillion dollars in debt. Over the past nine years that we have been at war they have been spending about a billion plus and trust me we (the Soldiers) dont see much even with the old pay raises, which was never more than 50.00/month. It all goes to civilian contractors most of which make 6 figures a year for about six months work and its tax-free. And to be honest with you this isnt a war we are fighting its a police action. For the most part if you ask any deployed Soldier what is there over-all main objective...uhh...umm Kill the enemy, secure and clear a certain route, rebuild this or that. And really all this war is doing is hurting the people, the country we are fighting for because so if you look at all the wars through out our history the rich get richer off the war while, the common worker, blue collars get laid off, white collars take pay cuts and try to mantain their accustom lifestyles, which cause them to go deeper in debt. Also paying with you bank card for everything. I cant tell you how many times a day I see people swipe their cards for a soda, fast food, a pack of smokes. Yes it is more convenit but it takes more cash out of the economey and you say a dollar use to be worth more. Well think about that a dollar use to be back by a certain weight of gold, then it got changed to silver....but now it is backed by nothing but " In God We Trust". Also with they swiping of plastic it makes you think less before you buy anything. Think about this for a second, If all you had in you wallet was a 100.00 dollar bill would you brake that for a soda and a candy bar, for a burger? Well next time you go to swipe you card think that this is a dollar bill worth (amount in your account) would you brake a bill that large for what you are about to purchase? And as far as hurting the economy, in the us patent office there have been patents bought up by the companies that would lose money if they ever got produce. Carborators that get 90/100/120 miles per gallon, batteries that never run out of juice large enough to power houses, towns, cities. Instead of giving the top 10% of america tax cuts and letting everyone else pay more, saying its so they can create more jobs. Tax them more, give the little guys and gals a brake. Yes I as a Soldier get paid by you paying taxes, but then again I pay myself as unless Im deployed I get taxed also. So really when I get paid its taxed twice, isnt it? And people this war isnt going to end anytime soon, this isnt even what should be called a war. I mean you cant tell who the bad guys are they look like everyone else, until they are firing at you and they are never in large groups out looking for us the sit back and wait for us to patrol by. And it seems to me that nobody can say what will end the war, or who we have to capture to win it. And every year we are there prices and taxes will raise a little by little and unless you pay close attention you wont notice it. But as gas rises it will push the price of everything else to pay for the fuel to drive the truck from factory to warehouse, warehouse to distobution hub, hub to store, you to drive there and buy it, then take it home.
                      When I was in Desert Storm, it wasn't nearly as bad as what you men and women are going through today. Money wise, I'm sure you're making more then what we did, but still not even close to being enough.

                      I disagree on your tax issue with the Military. Cut the social programs that are killing this country and pork barrel spending, and take some of that money and put it into the Military to pay you guys more. The Military should be taken care of first before any social program imo.

                      But I absolutely agree that our soldiers should be making more money than any civilian contractor or politician.

                      I have to admit that I loved the tax exempt paychecks I received while being over there.

                      I'm with you on the "police state" issue.

                      The one thing that people don't understand UNLESS you served, they have no idea what's going on in a war zone, unless they are actually there. I get beside myself when someone idiot media member would find 1 stupid "kook" to stick a camera in front of his face, to get a sound bite, and label him as the voice of what's going on over there.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

                        Originally posted by Flux View Post
                        Did you just use a Liberal/ Republican comparison that you just ripped a few posts ago?

                        Spreading the wealth isn't the answer. Stop sounding like a jilted lover.
                        Don't know what you are talking about regarding ripped posts.

                        "Spreading the wealth", would suggest there is an excess to be shared. That's like saying the family with no form of income, $100,000.00 in debt, about to lose their home would be rolling in dough if a wealthy family member offered to buy them food. Our economy is dead, we need charity so it's time to dig deep and pay for the past. You don't want to beg? I suggest you stop spending money on things you can't afford. I won't repeat what they are, I'm sure remember my last post.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

                          Guys,

                          The word "Socialism" has been thrown around with extreme sensationalism to scare people into buying a set of ideals that are closer to Fascism than Democracy.

                          Fascism is a government ruled by a minority, corporate Fascism would be what Musolnni once called "Corporatism", a form of Fascism where corporations and government decide what's best for the whole, the Nazi's were also a Fascist state.

                          I think there's probably only one person engaging in this chat that has any understanding of what I'm talking about, Andy, but even he debates my premise on socialism because I think he misses the point.

                          "Socialism" isn't a solid set of political ideals, it's a term that refers to a variable found in any form of government that caters to the majority as opposed to Fascism, Dictatorship, Monarchy, Oligarchy, or Plutonomy, which abides by a minority or single entity rule.

                          Communism is extreme socialism where the government caters to what it deems best for all the people, extreme mediocrity.

                          In political science, Communism is as far to the left as it gets, where Fascism is as far to the right.

                          A much less dramatic form of socialist governing would be Democracy, where we have a Constitution that limits the depth to which government can exude control, but allows it nonetheless for the welfare of the whole.

                          Where, for example, plumbing, building or electric code could be viewed by a homeowner as a form of excessive control by the government that forces them to adhere to a standard regardless of cost or whether they want.

                          It could be viewed as an infringement on their personal freedom in a sense, but one that prevents home explosions or Cholera outbreaks.

                          A stop sign is a small form of socialism, a rule set to protect the welfare of the whole that may infringe upon your time and freedom in a small way.

                          As a Libertarian, this concept gets ridiculously convoluted, there are reasons for laws and regulations, there are also reasons for taxes, anyone can look at any of our laws or taxes from their own perspective at a given time and come to the conclusion that it's "socialism".

                          This is why I mentioned Teddy Roosevelt, by todays Republican standards, the man was a union loving, wealth redistributing Liberal.

                          In a few years, when enough Americans are starving and homeless, our widely accepted "versions" of politics will change, just the same as it did around the time of the Great Depression, but it takes the pain to become completely obvious before these changes happen and we start accepting reality and voting accordingly.

                          Last edited by DuckButter; 12-09-2010, 12:34 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

                            $3.00 here but I hope it goes to $12/gallon, keep all these idiot casual drivers off the road and leave the driving to the work force.


                            I loved it when it spiked for the first time... it was so cool because I could get to work quicker, less F-tards on the road.


                            Who's with me? $5/gallon, $8, How bout the low price of $10.49?
                            Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

                              Originally posted by DUNBAR PLUMBING View Post
                              Who's with me? $5/gallon, $8, How bout the low price of $10.49?
                              $5.00 a gallon, and we all will be raising prices and starving for work at the same time.

                              But it's $3.03 here for regular.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

                                Originally posted by Flux View Post
                                Did you just use a Liberal/ Republican comparison that you just ripped a few posts ago?

                                Spreading the wealth isn't the answer. Stop sounding like a jilted lover.
                                Let me try to put this in perspective.

                                If the prince of Saudi Arabia buys every piece of real estate in America, then decides he wants to charge astronomical rates to anyone entering his property and outrageous tolls for driving on his roads, would we be "spreading the wealth" if we intervened for him "rewarding his success"?

                                Would this be an attack on his personal or financial liberty?

                                If you feel the U.S. government would have the right to intervene, elaborate on why.

                                If you don't agree and feel the government is wrong to intervene, get ready to embrace Sharia law, Communism, or whatever belief it is that the highest bidder has.

                                Even if you want to state he cannot exercise control over your beliefs per the first amendment, he can charge you more rent or toll than those who are willing to comply, unless, of course, you feel the government ought step in and tell him he can't....

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