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Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

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  • #76
    Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

    Duck are we stuck in an infinite loop here?

    Yes, for the umpteenth time... socialism is an ECONOMIC SYSTEM, not a form of government.

    Any type of democracy or representative government can elect to implement and operate a socialist system. Fascism is intrinsically socialist. Socialism is an economic system implemented by the government of the government.

    The converse, i.e., that any democracy, representative government or totalitarian government is necessarily socialist or must have elements of socialism because they implement laws and regulate industry, is not true. Even if the government imposes laws and regulation on privately owned and controlled business, it simply does not meet the definition of a socialist economic system.

    I have already, at least twice, written exactly what the major difference is between socialism and communism - most recently in my last post. Why do it again? You can find this same info in a thousand places.

    Socialist economic systems exist under democratic, representative, fascist or communist governments. I am not and never have argued anything different.

    I fully understand that you are promoting an argument aimed at those that accuse Obama of being socialist. To wit, you appear to be saying that Obama's alleged socialist actions are nothing more than the government function, which is inherently socialistic to some extent.

    My points have been that you are misusing the term "socialism", so I thoroughly disagree with your reasoning. I also believe that excessive taxation on investment (personal income tax) and on business (corporate income tax) creeps closer to socialism, for this reason: If a government increasingly requires business and private industry to pay high taxes, then that government increasingly controls the capital. In the extreme, when tax rates grow to very high levels, the Government is essentially attaching the profits of private industry. At that point, they are effectively the owner. We are certainly not there yet, but that is the logic that supports the characterization of tax increases as socialistic. I do in fact understsand your points, but IMO Obama policies can fairly be characterized as leaning towards socialistic.... which does not mean that we are socialists in the U.S.!

    Having said that, and it may sound inconsistent, I do very definitely favor actions that would very sharply curb the insane profits of particularly the financial and oil industries. These criminals should not be lumped in with the bulk of American companes, who don't enjoy the sweet deals.

    But more importantly, I suggest it doesn't matter, not one bit. Label Obama a socialist, a communist, a fascist ... it makes no difference.

    Our country is being destroyed by ECONOMIC POLICY, and at this point it is Obama economic policy. While I am the LAST person to defend Bush and the mess he left, the fact is that Obama is at the helm now and is making things dramatically worse.

    I'm worn out. That's it for me on this thread.
    Last edited by Andy_M; 12-13-2010, 02:16 AM.


    • #77
      Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

      Take a break Andy, and allow me to talk a while. When folks argue a point or talk about government, economics and other things having to do with our society they do so in black and white. I think there must be room for all the grays. I see many abuses done so in the name of freedom, rights and the law. Fairness, decent behavior, doing the right thing and having a conscience are things lost over the years and wiped from our vocabulary by our legal system.

      The giants of the oil industry are not criminals, but they are certainly crossing some kind of moral line when consumers are hurt by their need for profits. Common sense, fairness and decency tell me folks should not be cold in their homes or stranded with no way to commute because our system only sees the legal rights of the corporation. This scenario is played out over and over again throughout our lives, free speech used to protect the cruel and rude. Political gamesmanship perverting the noble idea of a democratic society to the point that no one really knows how we got here or where we are headed.

      I won't argue ideas or definitions, but I will argue that our government over the course of many years and changing political parties has over spent, allowed the loss of millions of jobs, and is responsible for the death and disability of many brave Americans.

      My common sense tells me that the overspending must stop and the debt must be paid down, the money for that comes from taxes and we know who pays taxes! Jobs won't return by choice, they must be legislated and the profits of those who benefit from the American consumer will be reduced.

      Waging wars, spreading good will and all the other global things America does should be rethought until America is once again a healthy place.
      Maybe we should adopt a flat tax with NO LOOPHOLES? Sorry guys but the poor will never pay. Maybe we should change our legal system to include fairness, decency and doing the right thing, not just what attorneys can accomplish in a court room or agree to behind closed doors.

      The good folks are taking a beating and the bad folks, those who commit violent crimes and white collar crimes are winning. Rising gasoline prices are just a part of this whole bigger problem. We have folks right here who think gas prices should go much higher. Such a thing would serve their selfish needs and hurt good folks who have needs just as important. Decency, the word has been lost.


      • #78
        Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

        Andy, I'll agree on the exasperating nature of the topic.

        I met the same level of exasperation when debating healthcare reform, Finreg's or tax code with people who seemed to have to word "socialism" fearfully imprinted on their fbrains, while not actually understanding the meaning of the word.

        One of the most common references made by laymen as the definition for Socialism is pointing to the fact that it appears in U.S.S.R., I've heard similar arguments that America isn't a Democracy because the word "republican government" appears in the Constitution, therefore the U.S. is a Republic and Democrats are unconstitutional, so is Democracy. (I hope that gives you the same smirk it gave me at the time)

        To delineate, I'll leave it with the question I asked before, what is the difference between Socialism and Communism?

        To Frank, regarding white collar crime vs violent criminals, while a bank robber might shoot and kill one, two or several people, a bank that robs can kill many, many more.
        Last edited by DuckButter; 12-13-2010, 03:00 PM.


        • #79
          Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post

          The fact is that the real power in the world in not in nuclear weapons or standing armies. The real power is economic power. In the United States, our monetary policy is dictated by the Federal Reserve, a private bank that was created by Congress but doesn't answer to any branch of the Federal Government. They have the ability to unilaterally set monetary policy, print currency, and make loans to anyone they choose, including foreign companies, banks and even foreign governments. This makes them essentially a sovereign political entity, that does not need the approval or even knowledge of the People's Government. Here is a snippet from a note I received the other day from my Congressperson: "While I share many of your concerns, the Federal Reserve is independent of Congress and the Administration..."

          Does this seem like a problem to anyone else? Fed policies have created the dot com bubble, the housing bubble, the banking crisis, have cost the taxpayers trillions, have funnelled hge amounts of the People's wealth to Wall Street and the financial industry, and have contributed mightily to the global economic crisis. And they are "independent of Congress and the Administration"? Huh?!?

          What we have isn't socialism. What we have is a takeover of the United States, and possibly the free world. The politicians are going along with it, including Obama and including Bush before him. Party politics are insignificant compared to what is really happening.

          Please write your congressperson.
          Here we completely agree, the subject reverts to the Jefferson-Hamilton debate.

          Turns out Jefferson was right about the fact that banks would inevitably exert ownership of Democracy if allowed to do so, all the while hiding in secrecy because technically the Fed isn't a branch of government, leaving them with ultimate power and no accountability....go figure, banking bonuses were at an all time high in 2009 while middle class American families were being evicted en mass.

          We need to change that, transparency, the Fed needs to inform the public what's it doing with out money.


          • #80
            Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

            Duck, I included both because whether there is one victim or several million my point is that justice is not being served. The rule of law is not to bring the guilty to justice but rather to either get them off or get them reduced sentences. Our courts and jails are overfilled, there are too many people who have no working moral compass and too many excuses. I include politicians and white collar criminals in that description.

            Instead of debating definitions of what to call our government, why not strip away the layers and expose the problems for what they are? I tell my daughters that words are not the true measure of a person, but rather their actions and behavior. Politicians have promised us lower taxes and "healthcare", but what we have that is tangible is war, and a host of economic and social problems.

            I see little difference between democrats and republicans when they are in a position of power. Both parties cater to their base and push their agenda which in both cases has left we the people and our country with serious problems.

            Duck, labels and definitions may give us some starting point or insight but actions for me speak volumes. Our country is in debt and needs to stop overspending and increase income to pay down the debt, yet tax cuts will probably be extended while spending continues. Much as I would like to see money spent to provide greater education, healthcare and other programs associated to a progressive socitey, if the money is not there it would be irresponsible to continue. Big oil and other corporations may be doing right by their investors, but in my opinion their behavior is irresponsilbe if it burdens the populace. We need certain things to be affordable and while I think it's great that some folks can afford $12 a gallon gasoline, most cannot!

            I'm wandering, the problems with our government, society and economy seem so vast that it's difficult to stay on track. Maybe it's better, safer, easier to argue definitions. The real world problems facing us are too depressing to dwell on and don't appear to be getting resolved.


            • #81
              Re: Are Gasoline Prices Rising By You?

              Gas is up 2 cents here hehe