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  • #16
    Re: How Would We Do If ?

    Originally posted by AFM View Post
    Don`t be so nasty Frank China is our new friend who buys our iron ore and sells us all that cheap rubbish why would they go to war against the U S they already have you by the balls where you are paying for their military build up and their standard of living.
    I was reading that the U S is in debt to the tune of 14 Trillion dollars what ever that mean and hocked up to 98% of your GDP no wonder your cutting your military and everything else no I suggest your grand children learn chinese.

    Tony
    Tony, I know you are being sarcastic but the truth still hurts. Over the last forty or so years I have witnessed industry and business leave my country. Jobs disappeared and so did pride in making quality goods built to last. Don't bring bad American cars into the mix, if designers and engineers did the right thing it would be a matter of quality control to make sure workers did a good job of assembly.

    Our legislators are just too darn slow to connect the dots or too crooked, I don't know which? Did they really think all the business and job loss would not lead to this, if so why not take action years ago? I don't hear much about free trade and open markets lately, do you think folks finally realized those words were meaningless?

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: How Would We Do If ?

      Franki,

      I only read the first several replies to this post, so hopefully I haven't missed anything really significant as I don't want to insult anyone... so please, pardon me.

      But Franki, I think you need to get a hobby! Start taking a few long walks with the wife and daughters, play some board games or whatever, or read some best sellers or maybe the classics. But please, stop listening to Fox News and above all, please stop staying awake at night and thinking up all these perceived problems both domestically and internationally. Man, you need to be happy!!!

      First off, let's put ourselves in China's shoes for a minute (I know... that's "Communist China" to you). China is a country with a culture that is thousand's of years old. It was practicing and defining the art of warfare when most Europeans were still living in caves. It's tactics and weaponry were hundreds of years in advance of anything that Europe had, and certainly several hundred years before Europe even knew of China or the America's. That history has defined a culture that thinks differently than most Westerners.

      Now let's leap forward a thousand years, when European's were slaughtering each other and practicing genocide in the America's. Where was China? Well China was busy with China of course. It was advancing it's culture, it's arts, it's science, and it was religiously and culturally focused only on China!

      In the last half of the 19th Century, it was Europe that was colonizing the world and China was as usual, just busy with China! It made no moves to invade any of it's neighbors or conquer any of the world outside of China.

      In the first half of the 20th Century, there was turmoil within China, but mostly because of European, Japanese, and United States' intervention. Yes, there was strife and political turmoil within, but much of it provoked from the outside.

      In WWI, China played little to nothing in that carnage, other than to protect it's own borders. In WWII, it was China that was invaded by the Japanese and it was the United States that sent it help.

      But when the Communist pushed the feudal Nationalist off the mainland, the Unitied States closed it's political eyes to China and despite many outreaches from China, we did nothing for their benefit until the Nixon administration.

      During the Korean conflict, we ignored China almost entirely. In our counter-attack against the North Korean invasion of the South, we not only pushed N.Korea out of S. Korea, but we pushed them back all the way to the Yalu River which was N. Korea's northern border with China.

      In the United States, there was much concern that MacArthur was out of control and in direct defiance to both Congress and the President. As our armies pushed north to the Yalu, China was gravely concerned and there were diplomatic inquireries and much concern expressed over our intentions. There was also great fear that because of our aliance with the Nationalist on Formosa (now Taiwan), that our push north had no intentions of stopping at the Yalu.

      With that concern, and the political silence from Washington, China launched an overwhelming counterattack that not only stopped our advance, but pushed us totally out of N. Korea.

      Since that time we have militarily and politically faced off against China and it wasn't until Nixon's visit that we even recognized them politically. As a thousand year old culture, one might clearly understand it if they were and perhaps still are a bit insulted.

      While yes, China has unfairly invaded Mongolia, there is some question of it's ancient history and whether Mongolia was part of ancient China. But, China has not struck at Japan or Taiwan, even though it has the means and certainly a history that it might want to revenge. (If you know your history, you would know the terrible price that China paid during the Japanese occupation.)

      Since WWII, the United States military (Pentagon and the War College branch, as well as the CIA) have conducted constant simulations of warfare against China. Such scenarios have been with all branches, including land, sea, air, and nuclear warfare. We counstantly probe China's defences with our surveilance aircraft, coastal sea patrols (surface and sub-surface) and satelite.

      We have major military facilities in Korea, Japan, and other Pacific locations. We have conducted military operations in Korea and Vietnam as wall as covert operations on the Malay peninsula, Thailand, and Cambodia. And we supply both Taiwan and Japan with exteme weaponry and training and recently signed a nuclear agreement with India.... all of these at China's door.

      Now, take a look back to how much commotion was caused when we, the United States, found a dozen shortrange, non-nuclear missles in Cuba! We were on the very verge of war with Russia, and only minutes away from a launch scenario! By comparison, it would appear that China has demonstrated remarkable constrait.

      Now, take a look at this last decade... when the previous administration targeted, fabricated, and then invaded Iraq. Taking into account, our massive military developement of anti-missile systems, stealth aircraft, massive nuclear submarines with overwhelming nuclear delivery capabilities, and untold long-range strike capabilities.... one can only begin to wonder why we haven't heard from China, before now?

      Also consider that China is now without Russia to act as a counterpoise to our military might, and China is without the world court or opinion, which the Bush administration openly ignored and defied in it's invasion of Iraq. Take into consideration the political and military influence that we have forced on Pakistan and many of China's neighbors.

      The bottom line is that much of the world is scared to death of the United States and it's unbrideled military might.

      If that were not enough, China might also be paying some attention to all the "Chinese bashing" that is taking place on forums like this and elsewhere. All of us who are unabashed in our "hatred" of China, and any and everything that is Chinese. Can one presume that the well-voice population, who loves the likes of Fox News and other voices of the country are any different than the political and military machine that holds it's finger to the trigger?

      So, if the "shoe was on the other foot" as they say, what in the hell do you think we'd do? China has not shown any provocation outside it's own boarders. We may not like what is going on over there, and I can tell you that there's a lot of Chinese that don't like it either... but it's their affair, just like our greedy banks, porn parlors, and religious zealots are our affair. Lots of us don't like that either, but you don't see Chinese submarines, aircraft carriers, or jet fighters running up and down our borders, do you?

      The other thing that we seem to forget is that this isn't the 1940's or even the 50's, or 60's. If we ever go to war directly with China, it's not going to be a matter or months or years. There will be no building of a "war machine", changing over our factories, or bumping up military production or even the time to enlist and train our young men and women.

      China will far out man us in a conventional war, but a war directly with China will not be conventional in any way. We, the United States will have to result to quick and all out warfare on the most extreme level that we can muster. We will in no way be able to sustain a high level of offense against a country that is so large, so far, and with so many soldiers under arms. In other words, both we and they will have to result to the ultimate weapons and with that, nobody wins.

      Personally, I think that all too many of us live in fear of tomorrow. If it isn't the Mexicans, it's the Bankers, the Industrialists, the Minorities, the Democrats, and/or the Chinese! Hey, how about fearing the Germans? Afterall, we've gone to war with them a few times, why the hell aren't you fearing them? Or maybe we ought to start fearing the fear mongers themselves.

      Besides, just think about China for a minute or two... why in God's name would they ever want to go to war with us. If they wanted to, all they'd have to do is stop shipping product and we'd be naked and starving within a matter of months. Or, they could just simply foreclose!

      CWS

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: How Would We Do If ?

        ah yes.....don't forget zeee germans
        sigpic

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: How Would We Do If ?

          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
          Tony, I know you are being sarcastic but the truth still hurts. Over the last forty or so years I have witnessed industry and business leave my country. Jobs disappeared and so did pride in making quality goods built to last. Don't bring bad American cars into the mix, if designers and engineers did the right thing it would be a matter of quality control to make sure workers did a good job of assembly.

          Our legislators are just too darn slow to connect the dots or too crooked, I don't know which? Did they really think all the business and job loss would not lead to this, if so why not take action years ago? I don't hear much about free trade and open markets lately, do you think folks finally realized those words were meaningless?
          Frank the words you are looking for are CAPITALISM & GREED & WALL STREET that has lead the world into this mess and we have no one to blame but ourselves and looking for scap goats as fox news and other right wingers do helps no one CWsmith sums up china so elegantly if anyone is to start a war it will be the U S and no one will win and I will be standing on that soap box shouting to whoever will listern in Australia that we will not follow you into a chinese war as we have in so many before and your on your own this time if you were so silly to do so.

          Tony

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: How Would We Do If ?

            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
            Do we know how powerful china's defense is, and how would we do if such an encounter were to take place?
            A better question would be "What is Obama going to do about it?". After seeing Hugo Chavez embarrass Obama in front of the world..the answer would be "Nothing".

            China has out manned us and gunned us for a very long time now.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: How Would We Do If ?

              Originally posted by Flux View Post
              A better question would be "What is Obama going to do about it?". After seeing Hugo Chavez embarrass Obama in front of the world..the answer would be "Nothing".

              China has out manned us and gunned us for a very long time now.
              Must have missed this.

              I thought it was Bush he was mocking at the UN.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: How Would We Do If ?

                Wow, I pose a simple "what if" and I'm told to get a hobby and take long walks. Sorry, but watching Fox News is part of my boring routine. Clearing my property of snow has become a very involved and exhausting past time and long walks in this mess is out of the question.

                There seems to be two schools of thought being posted, one believes china has nothing to gain from a war with us and can simply stop supplying our consumer needs to crush us. The other posts answer the what if with a confident " china would beat us".

                Heck, if it's true as I believe that we are dependent on china for our daily survival, that is something that deserves our attention and resolve to change.
                If indeed china has a more powerful defense, maybe we should concentrate our efforts towards strenghtening our economy?

                Yes, a hobby would be nice, so would some warm weather and sun shine. My greater concerns for the moment are the health issues of some family members, and the future of my daughters both in college and the work place.
                Sorry if I brought up a scary subject and the hated Fox News.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: How Would We Do If ?

                  Well Franki,

                  I hope you didn't feel that I was trying to insult you, as that was not my purpose whatsoever. I just feel you need to objectively look at a few things, both historically and objectively.

                  You've heard the saying, "you are what you eat"... well, that applies to the mind too. If you habitually partake of the menu that Fox News and the many fear mongerer's dish out, then you will become that.

                  Likewise, if you partake of only the sedate, peace at any price pundits, you will lie down and simply let life roll over humanity.

                  ("Balance, Daniel-san, balance!" as Mr. Miyagi offered.)

                  Still, I enjoy a lot of your posts, as they are thought provoking. I just wish they wouldn't get my defenses pumping.

                  *******

                  Regarding the "What is Obama doing about that" post. History seems to be on your very short list of important things to do today. It was Mr. Bush's administration, not Obama's.

                  But to answer you question, try listening to the a few other News stations, China's chief is here and we're extending our political hand in recognition and concern. China is bending a wee bit, offering more effort to buy U.S. goods and provide for more U.S. jobs.

                  We are not "rattling sabres" and offering threats from our stupid arrogance. (I know, you probably miss "Dubya"!) You may not understand the importance of that.

                  CWS

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: How Would We Do If ?

                    Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                    Well Franki,

                    I hope you didn't feel that I was trying to insult you, as that was not my purpose whatsoever. I just feel you need to objectively look at a few things, both historically and objectively.

                    You've heard the saying, "you are what you eat"... well, that applies to the mind too. If you habitually partake of the menu that Fox News and the many fear mongerer's dish out, then you will become that.

                    Likewise, if you partake of only the sedate, peace at any price pundits, you will lie down and simply let life roll over humanity.

                    ("Balance, Daniel-san, balance!" as Mr. Miyagi offered.)

                    Still, I enjoy a lot of your posts, as they are thought provoking. I just wish they wouldn't get my defenses pumping.

                    *******

                    Regarding the "What is Obama doing about that" post. History seems to be on your very short list of important things to do today. It was Mr. Bush's administration, not Obama's.

                    But to answer you question, try listening to the a few other News stations, China's chief is here and we're extending our political hand in recognition and concern. China is bending a wee bit, offering more effort to buy U.S. goods and provide for more U.S. jobs.

                    We are not "rattling sabres" and offering threats from our stupid arrogance. (I know, you probably miss "Dubya"!) You may not understand the importance of that.

                    CWS
                    I'm not offended by your observations or opinions, that doesn't mean I agree. I do tell my daughters "good thoughts in, good thoughts out", if they are feeling down. I can repeat that I'm not a conservative till I'm blue in the face but folks who are set in their way of thinking can't fathom a point of view that is neither conservative nor liberal in it's entirety. I can't miss dubya if I voted for obama, and while I don't believe I was unpatriotic to disagree with former President Bush, I feel the same way about disagreeing with President Obama.

                    Why can't a person watch Fox News without being accused of buying into their slant on politics, or current events? I do watch more than Fox, I am open minded and form my own opinions. I know some of my posts will get the blood pumping, the subjects do the same for me. CWS, is it acceptable to get upset or defensive once in a while in order to explore issues that may be relevent ? I mean we can't all agree on things, and refusing to discuss them does not make them go away.

                    I constantly work at keeping my life in balance, how I relate to my wife and daughters, interact with neighbors and even my Forum friends. Life is a balancing act if you want to live long and play well with others, unfortunately at times things get shaky.

                    I enjoy your many posts as well and I will try to refrain from all this heavy stuff. There is just so darn much in the News that is deserving of discussion, and being a retired guy has severely limited my social interaction. Peace

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: How Would We Do If ?

                      Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                      Well Franki,
                      If you habitually partake of the menu that Fox News and the many fear mongerer's dish out, then you will become that.
                      The argument of "fear mongering" and hate speech is quite old and stale from the left, when they are the biggest abusers of it. Just look at the vitriol that came from the left over the Arizona shooting. It was quite embarrassing and disgusting to be honest with you.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: How Would We Do If ?

                        Originally posted by James P View Post
                        Must have missed this.

                        I thought it was Bush he was mocking at the UN.
                        Guess you missed the book Chavez gave Obama as well huh?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: How Would We Do If ?

                          Originally posted by Flux View Post
                          Guess you missed the book Chavez gave Obama as well huh?

                          This book?http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpu...-gifts-ob.html

                          BFD

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: How Would We Do If ?

                            Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                            Franki,

                            But Franki, I think you need to get a hobby! Start taking a few long walks with the wife and daughters, play some board games or whatever, or read some best sellers or maybe the classics. But please, stop listening to Fox News and above all, please stop staying awake at night and thinking up all these perceived problems both domestically and internationally. Man, you need to be happy!!!
                            With all respect, IMO this is inappropriate advice.

                            I don't advocate that anyone should have anxiety issues over geopolitical situations. I don't think Frank is in that category, and I don't confuse his concern with "unhappiness". And personally I think Fox News is terrible, even though I am conservative.

                            But it is irresponsible for Citizens to ignore what is worrying them, what they see as problems in the world and in our Country. Would Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin or any of the others achieved the results that they did had they heeded those that certainly were giving them the same advice you are promoting?

                            I think that complacency, apathy and lack of awareness are the largest problems we in the United States face. We got ourselves into this mess precisely because people turned off their brains and turned on their TVs, choosing to believe what they were told. We as a nation want to hear that our stocks and homes will only go up, that we can have GOvernment programs and enjoy a high standard of living... even though we don't manufacture anything anymore. In 1970 we were the leader of the industrial world, with an actual positive balance of trade(http://www.data360.org/dataset.aspx?Data_Set_Id=68). Since then, we have become a nation of consumers, with a hugely increasing trade deficit. The United States dollar was made the world's reserve currency largely because at the time, we were the largest LENDER to the world. Today, a scant 40 years later, we are the largest DEBTOR in the history of the world.

                            Does it make any sense whatsoever for grownups to believe that you can habitually send your wealth overseas consistently for 40 years without the tank getting pretty low or running dry at some point? Of course not, a child would understand that. It was complacency and apathy.... Americans trusting to leave these matters up to "others" while we developed your hobbies and enjoyed life. Well, anyone that gets swindled is in fact an accomplice in the deed, and that is where we as a nation are.

                            Today, we hear that those that are burying us economically are our "trading partners" rather than our competitors. We hear that "globalization is good" and that we should embrace it. But then we demand that the Government "do something" about massive unemployment and not only the loss of jobs, but the fact that good paying production jobs are lost, leaving us with low paying service sector jobs. Huh? Does this make any sense?

                            We have a Government that spends $3.7T but only takes in $2.1T. This meant that they're spending $1.76 for every dollar they actually have. The 76 cents is either borrowed from other countries, or printed. The projections show that between debt service and growth of entitlements, these numbers are going to literally explode over the next 30 years. I don't know about you, but IMO we have to be a nation of "eejits" to have let things get this far out of whack. Should we continue with our heads in the sand until the whole place comes crashing down around us?

                            I think if everyone in the United States was as concerned as Frank is, we might actually have a chance of surviving.


                            I will never defend the US current involvement in the middle east. But understand that this has nothing to do with the Chinese and oil, nor do they worry that will attack them. They aren't stupid. They are much more concerned about Ben Bernanke than they are about Iraq, because one Ben is costing them (as well as you and I ) money. The real problem they have with US wars in the middle east is that we can't afford them, so we print more currency and this makes the debt they hold worth less.

                            The Chinese had and continue to have nuclear weapons pointed at the Unites States. Neither you nor anyone else should ever suggest that the US approach to nuclear deterrence has been anything short of brilliant, and is responsible for maintaining stability for 60 years.

                            And, btw,the Cuban missile crisis was about Soviet NUCLEAR missiles in Cuba.... that had the ability to strike US land based installations with much shorter flight times and thus upset the nuclear stability. It's amazing to me that anyone would suggest that the Cuban missile crisis was about non-nukes, or adopt the tone that we were somehow in the wrong!

                            On the other hand, your arguments are apparently intended to explain how US policies have harmed the Chinese, but totally ignore the fact that the US is responsible in large part for their economic success. For most of history, CHina was a closed isolationist culture. The opeining of trade between the east and west has strongly benefitted China at the expense of the US. In response, the manipulate their currency to maintain an economic advantage, that they target and subsidize industries, that they do not hold their markets open for US exports, and that they offer government incentives and streamlining to entice US businesses to leave our shores and invest in their economy. Are any of these things ok with you? Do you understand that war, even the kind involving soldiers and weapons, is economic in nature? Do you understand tha the Soviets were not defeated, they were put out of business? The Chinese understand this. Their weapons development IS a concern, because the strategic balance of power DICTATES that the US will be compelled to expend money to keep up. This is the threat! We can't afford it. We need to cut the almost $700B annual defense budget as part of our economic plan, but if we have to compete with Chinese weapons, they are esentialy forcing us not to. This is what pushed the Soviets over the edge and it is what may well push the US over the edge.

                            I have written many times that as soon as the Chinese don't need us anymore, they will cease to be so friendly. Their current actions, including their suggestion that the US lose its reserve currency status, show us that that day is fast approaching.

                            But you seem to think that all this gets too much attention? I think it doesn't get nearly enough. You should go to other countries. When in Europe, strangers on trains, planes and in the next tables at restaurants, when they hear you speak and recognize you as American, want to talk about all of this. And it's usually to ask (politely) "What the hell are you people thinking?" But we in the USA know more about the last episode of American Idol or what Lindsay Lohan does than we do about what is happening in our Government. Europeans are actually disappointed that the US has dropped the ball so dramatically.

                            This is not "China bashing" or "China hating". This is simply recognizing that the game is on. You may not see it, but 15 million out of work US citizens do. I think that vigorous discourse is the only means we have to possibly pick the ball back up. We don't have a lot of time left. We need to understand, just like someone that has a credit card overspending problem, that we need to stop the spending, especially things we don't need, and work on getting out of debt. For the US, this means stop the addiction to imports and get back to the idea of industrial production as the path to wealth rather than currency manipulation.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: How Would We Do If ?

                              [QUOTE=Andy_M;327732]With all respect, IMO this is inappropriate advice.

                              I don't advocate that anyone should have anxiety issues over geopolitical situations. I don't think Frank is in that category, and I don't confuse his concern with "unhappiness". And personally I think Fox News is terrible, even though I am conservative.

                              But it is irresponsible for Citizens to ignore what is worrying them, what they see as problems in the world and in our Country. Would Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin or any of the others achieved the results that they did had they heeded those that certainly were giving them the same advice you are promoting?

                              I think that complacency, apathy and lack of awareness are the largest problems we in the United States face. We got ourselves into this mess precisely because people turned off their brains and turned on their TVs, choosing to believe what they were told. We as a nation want to hear that our stocks and homes will only go up, that we can have GOvernment programs and enjoy a high standard of living... even though we don't manufacture anything anymore. In 1970 we were the leader of the industrial world, with an actual positive balance of trade(http://www.data360.org/dataset.aspx?Data_Set_Id=68). Since then, we have become a nation of consumers, with a hugely increasing trade deficit. The United States dollar was made the world's reserve currency largely because at the time, we were the largest LENDER to the world. Today, a scant 40 years later, we are the largest DEBTOR in the history of the world.

                              Does it make any sense whatsoever for grownups to believe that you can habitually send your wealth overseas consistently for 40 years without the tank getting pretty low or running dry at some point? Of course not, a child would understand that. It was complacency and apathy.... Americans trusting to leave these matters up to "others" while we developed your hobbies and enjoyed life. Well, anyone that gets swindled is in fact an accomplice in the deed, and that is where we as a nation are.

                              Today, we hear that those that are burying us economically are our "trading partners" rather than our competitors. We hear that "globalization is good" and that we should embrace it. But then we demand that the Government "do something" about massive unemployment and not only the loss of jobs, but the fact that good paying production jobs are lost, leaving us with low paying service sector jobs. Huh? Does this make any sense?

                              We have a Government that spends $3.7T but only takes in $2.1T. This meant that they're spending $1.76 for every dollar they actually have. The 76 cents is either borrowed from other countries, or printed. The projections show that between debt service and growth of entitlements, these numbers are going to literally explode over the next 30 years. I don't know about you, but IMO we have to be a nation of "eejits" to have let things get this far out of whack. Should we continue with our heads in the sand until the whole place comes crashing down around us?

                              I think if everyone in the United States was as concerned as Frank is, we might actually have a chance of surviving.


                              QUOTE]

                              Andy, thanks for your post which better expresses my concerns. I don't mean to bash china and when I repeatedly say "communist china" it is to remind folks that their's is not a democracy. I did not take offense to CWS suggesting I get a hobby and so forth, some folks can interpret my concerns for tunnel vision. I openly admit that I am bummed out by the weather and some other personal issues.Not everyone can wear a smiley face all the time and that should not dismiss my opinions and concerns regarding important issues.

                              I was very pleased to hear some of the comments President Obama made during the meeting with china's hu. He talked about many things that needed to be said, although long overdue in my opinion.

                              Andy, perhaps it is because I am retired and have more time to watch the News(not just Fox) that I am not as distracted with the busy life of working folks. I shop at Walmart and Home Depot, and while I don't hate china for manufacturing most of our consumer goods, I am upset at our country's general complacency and acceptance with it. I sure hope that our legislators will come together and do something to return our country to greatness.
                              I should rest up, we have another snow storm tomorrow into Thursday.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: How Would We Do If ?

                                Andy,

                                You are correct, they were definitely Nuclear missiles and I stand corrected. However, I never said we were wrong in our stance, I used the crisis as an example of how such things may be the cause for reaction... and that China perhaps has it's cause given the close proximity of our weapons systems.

                                We shouldn't forget either that the "brink" that the Cuba missile crisis represents was also a "reaction" by the Soviets to our placement of Nuclear missiles in the UK in 1958 and further deployment in Italy and Turkey in 1961. Furthermore, we had a sigificant missile lead over the Soviet's somewhat fledgling effort. In addition we had a number of Polaris submarines which the Soviets had no defense against or even the ability to track.

                                With regard to Cuba itself, we had already invaded, though unsuccessfully. And we had recently signed an authorization to take military action against Cuba, should justification present itself.

                                None of this of course has anything to do with present-day China, our financial situation or the fear of China that was the subject of this thread. It does present a case though for understanding. While we take considerable steps to defend, we must also understand that those on the other side do not always know that our efforts are as righteous as we may intend them to be. While it would be a wonderful thing if the United States was as pure as we all think it is, other's may not agree.

                                CWS
                                Last edited by CWSmith; 01-19-2011, 11:23 PM.

                                Comment

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