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  • #31
    Re: How Would We Do If ?

    CWS,

    I'm glad to read that you weren't suggesting that the US was somehow wrong or at fault for our response in 1962. It seemed from your comments that you were characterizing the US behavior as an overreaction to an insignificant number of non-nucear weapons, and therefore intimating that the Chinese were far less volatile an reactionary.

    Regarding your comments on the Bay of Pigs, recall that right after the Cuban revolution of '59, Cuba quickly established a very close and unsettling relationship with the Kremlin. So while not technically a violation of the Monroe Doctrine, the effect was virtually the same, as Castro was seen as an arm of the Soviets, scant miles from the US mainland. Were we unjustified in attempting the Bay of Pigs? Perhaps, perhaps not. Had it succeeded, there would have been no Cuban missile crisis. In my view, our biggest mistake was that the operation was botched.

    As for the weapons placed in Europe, IMO this had no bearing on the Soviets decision to place weapons in Cuba. For one thing, the US missiles were essentially obsolete by 1962 and not much of threat to the Soviets. In contrast, the Soviet missiles in Cuba were state of the art weapons. In fact, the US missiles in Europe provided the Soviets, who were more or less caught with hand in the cookie jar when their clandestine Cuban activities were discovered, with a way to retreat and save face. It was a virtual non-concession for the US to remove those weapons, as they were irrelevant and both sides knew it. They were probably going to be decommissioned soon, anyway.

    My point is not that the US is always squeaky clean or that we have not made foreign policy mistakes. Of course we have. I suggest merely that one should understand that Countries, all of them, constantly cite "reasons" for their actions. It's a mistake to take the explanations at face value.

    As I see it, the issue here is that China has been following an aggressive economic path that threatens our future. Sadly, we are helping it along with out own inane monetary policy and a population with a severe addiction to acquisition of inexpensive stuff we don't need. On the other side of the coin, the US has been dramatically abusing its position as the issuer of the world's reserve currency by inflating the money supply totally irresponsibly. This action devalues the US debt held by all other countries, and hurts China particularly since they hold a significant amount of US debt. We are essentially exporting inflation and economic instability around the globe. This is the real problem with the United States policies and the Federal Reserve... the dollar has a longer reach than any weapon.

    I think you continue to misread the comments on China. No one is claiming that China is an evil empire. Well, they actually are, I guess, when you consider their approach to social repsonsibility, human rights, etc. But that isn't the issue at all.

    The issue is that the US is asleep. Maybe comatose. We don't need to hate China or hate the stuff they are selling (although a lot of it is pure junk). What we need to do is respect them as an industrious and capable adversary, and get our own house in order with respect to getting US industry back on the right track.

    This is a case where looking at things from China's perspective isn't going to create one single domestic job, reduce our budget problems by one dollar, or provide anything for our children. Increasing domestic production, valuing (that means, "buying") US made goods over imports, increasing investment in the US, removing stifling and unreasonable government regulation, and getting those jobs back here will accomplish those things.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: How Would We Do If ?

      AndyM,

      Your points are well taken, and I do not disagree with you, except perhaps on a couple points. My view has always been that we need to "open our eyes". Hating China and China's production doesn't get the job done. Neither does blaming China for the mess that we are in. I have stated on many occasions, that much of our problem lies with the industries that move there as well as our unbridled thirst for more and more goods at the cheapest possible prices.

      And, I also agree that there are some Chinese products that simply aren't worth the time it takes to open the package. Some stuff is so pathetic, it is hard to imagine that energy was wasted to transport it here.

      But, there are also some products that are clearly very good. A good example being a television that I bought several years ago. Ours had "broken" for the last time (we only had one). Although only three years old at the time, it had been serviced several times. At the time, the only local TV product was this thing from China. I didn't want to buy it, but other than making a fifty-mile round trip, I had no other choice. I expected it to last no more than a month or two in all honesty, if it even lasted that long. But much to my surprise the picture was better than my Zenith, and it's the only TV that I've ever owned that ran cool (this was before any of the flatscreen TV's). It's now at least 15 years old and we've never had a problem with it.

      Tools are the same way, most everything is made in China these days and most everything works decently and offers nice features. Perhaps it's all designed here in the U.S., I don't really know (but I'm also not assuming that only us Yanks know how to design things either). With the exception of my "made in the U.S.A" Ryobi router with it's warped motor housing, all of the tools that I have purchased in the last decade have worked exceptionally well, even though it unfortunately wears a Ridgid "Made in China" label.

      So while China does produce junk, it also produces some pretty decent products too; and, I think that we need to recognize those capabilities; and in so doing, steps need to be taken to compete with them and NOT underestimate them. We have far too many U.S. industries investing in China because they don't see them as anything more than a cheap market for labor and production. In so doing, I think we gravely underestimate what we are doing to our own countrymen.

      Bashing China, is very much like the bashing we used to do to Japan. Meanwhile our industrialists were selling them iron and steel and coal and the latest techology of the time. (A good example of that was the "Link Trainer" which was developed and manufactured right here in Binghamton.... we had far more orders from "Nippon" than we did our own Army and Navy Air Corp. And while Japan of the 30's was the maker of those jokingly awful tin toys, they developed a torpedo that not only didn't explode on impact with the water (ours did), but could also be used in the rather shallow waters of Pearl Harbor.

      I think my feelings are that it is easy to blame China, but much of the fault lies within our own borders, with our own industries, and even with us as consumers.... though I don't see that many of us have a choice.

      Since the turn of the Twentieth Century, when we stepped out as an industrial giant and took our place among the world's leaders, we have made some pretty phenominal decisions in support of world freedom. Our steps into Cuba (Spanish American War) brought us to the world's attention. But the years that followed, did little to show us as anything more than another imperialistic power in that region, and right up through the Battista regime, I believe our behaviour is not without shame.

      While WWI and WWII are truely shining points in America's sacrifice to liberation and freedom, there's been a number of ventures that seem to be driven my business interests and for that reason, I feel that too much of our government decision making is either in direct support of business or in retaliation of some catastrophie that business has created.

      Cuba is, I think one of those.

      Perhaps I am remembering it wrong, (maybe I should refresh my memory) but our friendliness with Battista only turned sour when his ruthlessness began to make business in Cuba difficult. Only when business, followed by the press, started making noise did we start to seek out and then support the rebels and Fidel Castro their leader. Before that, Cuba was the playground of the rich. And, as I remember, we were as happy as clams, up to the day that Castro suddenly, and surprisingly, turned out to be a "communist" and opened his arms to the Soviet Union! With that shock, we immediately redefined our position and started to look for a way to get even.

      But that said, our "Bay of Pigs" was a botch-job. At least that's how I view it, both then and now. I was in high school and actually heard the "Fish is Red" shortwave broadcast from Swan Island. Of course it wasn't until I delivered the papers the next evening that I found out what the mysterious broadcast meant. But in the following hours/days, our last minute withdrawal of support for the "freedom fighters" seemed deplorable to me. (Much has been written since then, but history has a way to be mysteriously redefined, especially in favor of the authors.) Naively perhaps, that event and others began to make me wonder about our political resolve. Such changes in American support have happened too many times.

      Kennedy's handling of the "Missile Crisis" was indeed a bold and terrific move, but much of what lead up to that moment, still makes me wonder; and as you alluded to in your comment, our withdrawel of missiles from other areas concerning the Soviets, was sort of token. Although I believe our missiles in Turkey, were pretty much state of the art at the time of installation in 1961. Whatever the causes and reason's, Kennedy launched us into a massive arms race and the escalation of military activity in Vietnam.

      I guess my concern regarding China is that too many seem to blame them for our ills, while our own industries garner favor within our government and at the same time reap profit by sending manufacturing and manufacturing support to China. Such ventures are obviously at the sacrifice of American jobs and perhaps America's future.

      I am concerned that at some point, China will have gained all that it needs from American industry and tire of what it might then perceive as intrusive, because it can stand on it's own. At that point, our business profits will fall dramatically. Also in the equation, is that as China's economy grows, so does the standard of living of it's people. Much of the sharp rise in gas prices that we see is because China is sucking up an ever-increasing amount... as well as other world resources.

      While the United States has been the biggest pig at the trough, China's appetite may well overwhelm us in a rather short time.

      Then, when U.S. business is no longer profiting off of China's growth, but competing for it's scraps, and we are all having to pay exorbitant prices while China get's the bargains for it's monopolizing thirst... How will we be looking at China then?

      In the midst of all of this (and I've stated this many times), our industries are only too happy to have you and me and everyone else, believe that China is the fault; China is the one that forced our products to be made there, and all of our lost jobs are totally because China stole them.

      At that time, will our businesses, with the full support of our population, then demonize China, place sanctions to limit China's business, block China's products, and try to militarily secure the vital resources that both we and a totally modernized China need? Let us pray not.

      As far as who would win and how? Well I think you answered that best in your well-written post, earlier on page 1 of this thread. At the moment and into the foreseeable future, we have the edge. But as we all know, that edge is taking up a lot of our national budget and, as a recent Pentagon report cited, we're beginning to see some challenges in filling positions with people who have the education and technical savvy to meet the requirements.

      It was said, long ago, that China is a "sleeping tiger". I think the cat's already out of the bag and I think that we have to learn to play with the nice kitty. If it ever turns on us, the whole world is going to regret it, including China and us.

      CWS

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: How Would We Do If ?

        China is not the monster.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: How Would We Do If ?

          CWS, I don't want to see us at war with china, everyone would lose but it is a possibility. I will pose this question to the Forum once again, if we continue to depend on china and others for our consumer goods and do not return to nation that manufactures what it needs, then by what mechanism will millions of unemployed Americans find jobs?

          We hold no allegiance to corporations that have hedged their bets on cheap chinese labor with the exception of those invested in stocks, and stock investments will not employ the millions out of work.

          Just my opinion, but I think the best way to keep from being prey to china's tiger is to grow strong and independent. A strong America might be less of a target or victim than one that is begging for money and goods.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: How Would We Do If ?

            Franki,

            On that point (and many others, BTW) you and I agree. It concerns me that things are not turning around faster, although I see on the news today that we've launched an investigation into all of the different rules that govern and channel business. Too many rules and certainly too many that overlap, make conducting business very difficult and it appears that the government is going to do some searching.... Good Luck Huck!

            What I'd like to see, and I think it's possible, is to have every business that has moved its products "off-shore" to make a "patriotic" move and move at least one product back here to the United States.

            Yes, it might be a sacrifice financially, but I see no reason why it couldn't do that, why it couldn't try. Even just one product, for the sake of the country and the workers who built the company. For example, Ridgid could simply re-introduce a new 3650 (the 3670?) and build it here in the U.S. There's at least one pretty good foundry in Ohio, at least the last time I looked. They could make the table top.

            If the a table saw is too big a gamble, then how about the drill press or the drill line or something else. Just make the effort and let's see what can be made of it. Hey, Chang Type Industries of Taiwan is going to do that with it's newly acquired "Delta"... so why not an American company doing something similar or why not a coalition of American Companies making a decision and setting the pace for the rest?

            Returning one tool line may not be much, but it's a great start and if every company made that effort, we might have some renewed hope. Also, I wonder how much defence spending is off-shored? None of it should be.

            Too many problems, too many questions, and not nearly enough answers,

            CWS

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: How Would We Do If ?

              Business will never make "patriotic" moves nor should they.

              Corporations are chartered to maximize the shareholder's equity. It's the basis of capitalism. Either you believe it's a good thing, or you will forever be disappointed with the United States. The health of the economy depends on the business climate being conducive to maximizing returns in the US. We don't need tokens any more than we need stimulus packages. Neither work. We need to change the entire climate, and soon. Most of the problem is NOT foreign labor costs. Most of the problem is Government, which is far too big and overregulates business.

              Right now, the advantages to manufacturing offshore are largely freedom from government red tape, delays, and compliance costs. It is not all about the low labor cost. In fact, that's the smallest part. Companies in the US are over-regulated and bogged down with excessive government requirements (healthcare is one, Sarbannes-Oxley is another, the list can go for miles). Many necessary regulations have gone well past the point of diminishing returns and serve only to push manufacturing jobs offshore. Our government is serious about cap and trade... even though it won't accomplish a thing other than cost more jobs. This kind of insanity has to stop.

              We have a tax structure that rewards short term thinking and doesn't incentivize the right things. We pass out a trillion dollars as an Obama stimulus and then we're told we have a jobless recovery. What a bunch of bull. That money was wasted, when it could have significantly incentivized new factories and incentivized modernization of existing ones. The dopes in DC told us we would get "shovel ready infrastructure" projects. In the first place, we got very few... the money was used to support the bankrupt states. In the second place, that's like remodeling your house just before it gets foreclosed - Stupid! Yes, we need infrastructure improvements, but not now, for cryin' out loud. What we need NOW is re-industrialization, which will provide more good jobs, therefore higher tax revenue for the government.

              I won't get into the idiotic behavior of the political parties, but suffice it to say that BOTH (yup, the Repubs as well as the Dems) have had a major hand in the problem.

              My point is simple. The United States needs to pull its head out of its derriere and understand that if we want business to come back, we have to make it attractive for them to come back. We have to change the tax code to incentivize long term thinking instead of the quarter-by-quarter approach followed by US businesses. And, we The People need to support US businesses. If we can't get back into the picture as a producer country instead of a consumer country, we simply will fade and die. Other countries are making it attractive for business. We are doing the opposite, and that is why our manufacturing base has left. It's really not a huge and complicated question. It's just simple common sense.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: How Would We Do If ?

                [QUOTE=Frankiarmz;328155]CWS, I don't want to see us at war with china, everyone would lose but it is a possibility. I will pose this question to the Forum once again, if we continue to depend on china and others for our consumer goods and do not return to nation that manufactures what it needs, then by what mechanism will millions of unemployed Americans find


                We will never go back to self dependency. All nations are moving toward a global economy and eventually global government. The world is getting smaller by the minute. The politics and nationalism of the past just don't work anymore. Economies are all tied together. corporations are multi-National in nature.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: How Would We Do If ?

                  [QUOTE=NHMaster3015;328191]
                  Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                  CWS, I don't want to see us at war with china, everyone would lose but it is a possibility. I will pose this question to the Forum once again, if we continue to depend on china and others for our consumer goods and do not return to nation that manufactures what it needs, then by what mechanism will millions of unemployed Americans find


                  We will never go back to self dependency. All nations are moving toward a global economy and eventually global government. The world is getting smaller by the minute. The politics and nationalism of the past just don't work anymore. Economies are all tied together. corporations are multi-National in nature.
                  I believe capitalism has run it's course and proven that in this case it ultimately is part of an economic collapse. Exactly who will run this global government you envision, sure won't be the weak.

                  My question has gone unanswered, if we do not return to manufacturing and become more self sufficient we are sunk in my opinion. Our markets are open to foreigners and theirs are closed to us, corporations benefit from our stock investments and the cheap labor and absence of the EPA and OSHA.
                  You can rationalize all this as part of a good thing, but here we are a country deep in debt, fighting wars on borrowed money and with millions of jobs lost with no answer in sight. If you think capitalism works, please explain how we benefit from buying consumer goods made in a communist country which enriches their way of life, while we have millions of Americans unemployed with no hope of jobs? Please don't say they are all just lazy.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: How Would We Do If ?

                    Things will be run by the same guys that have been running it for the past 500 years or so. Bankers and investors. Politicians are merely pawns put in place by those that hold the real power.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: How Would We Do If ?

                      My question is still unanswered. To say that capitalism works is like saying it is a success to grow hair on a bald man who is dying from several terminal illnesses. Corporations and stockholders benefit from the cheap labor and absence of the EPA and OSHA, but millions of jobs were lost in the trade.

                      If millions of Americans cannot find work, and we keep enriching communist china and the rest of the countries that supply our needs, exactly how will our economy survive? I don't see it.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: How Would We Do If ?

                        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                        My question is still unanswered. To say that capitalism works is like saying it is a success to grow hair on a bald man who is dying from several terminal illnesses. Corporations and stockholders benefit from the cheap labor and absence of the EPA and OSHA, but millions of jobs were lost in the trade.

                        If millions of Americans cannot find work, and we keep enriching communist china and the rest of the countries that supply our needs, exactly how will our economy survive? I don't see it.
                        I am 100% convinced - no doubt whatsoever - that capitalism is the best possible solution. The alternative is socialism, and that simply doesn't work.

                        Case in point: the huge success of China is due to their incorporation of capitalism into their system. Many years of isolationism, followed by a communist/socialist government kept that country in the dark ages. A philosophical change to embrace capitalism and pursue economic growth has made them a world economic juggernaut in only 30 years. The Chinese government is the maestro of their orchestra, and they do everything they can possibly do to grow industry.

                        An even better example of the success of capitalism is the United States itself. Our incredible economic growth occured during a time when capitalism operated relatively free from government intervention. Up until 1970, the United States dominated industrial production. We exported more than we imported, and were the leader in most every industry, including critical ones such as machine tools, transportation, electronics manufacturing and aerospace.

                        Not coincidentally, this same year, 1970, is when the (insane) notion of the "service economy" started to take hold. The United States was taken off the gold standard in 1971, allowing the government to print money freely. And, very significantly, the amount and level of government regulation started to balloon in the 70s and grew exponentially. In every year since 1970, the trade balance has been negative and growing, while one by one we have lost our preemminence in key sectors. That's how we got where we are today.. Capitalism isn't the problem... it's the solution. Unfortunately we have forgotten how to do it right. As I see it, the US hasn't moved to true socialism, but Government intervention and over regulation presents many of the disadvantages of socialism.

                        China's success is because they have become better at capitalism than we are. What a sad statement. Their people aren't better educated or harder working. China is simply better-managed than the United States.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: How Would We Do If ?

                          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                          I am 100% convinced - no doubt whatsoever - that capitalism is the best possible solution. The alternative is socialism, and that simply doesn't work.

                          Case in point: the huge success of China is due to their incorporation of capitalism into their system. Many years of isolationism, followed by a communist/socialist government kept that country in the dark ages. A philosophical change to embrace capitalism and pursue economic growth has made them a world economic juggernaut in only 30 years. The Chinese government is the maestro of their orchestra, and they do everything they can possibly do to grow industry.

                          An even better example of the success of capitalism is the United States itself. Our incredible economic growth occured during a time when capitalism operated relatively free from government intervention. Up until 1970, the United States dominated industrial production. We exported more than we imported, and were the leader in most every industry, including critical ones such as machine tools, transportation, electronics manufacturing and aerospace.

                          Not coincidentally, this same year, 1970, is when the (insane) notion of the "service economy" started to take hold. The United States was taken off the gold standard in 1971, allowing the government to print money freely. And, very significantly, the amount and level of government regulation started to balloon in the 70s and grew exponentially. In every year since 1970, the trade balance has been negative and growing, while one by one we have lost our preemminence in key sectors. That's how we got where we are today.. Capitalism isn't the problem... it's the solution. Unfortunately we have forgotten how to do it right. As I see it, the US hasn't moved to true socialism, but Government intervention and over regulation presents many of the disadvantages of socialism.

                          China's success is because they have become better at capitalism than we are. What a sad statement. Their people aren't better educated or harder working. China is simply better-managed than the United States.
                          Andy, if by better managed you mean they crush any attempt at human or labor rights I agree. They also are not supporting millions of illegals, or fighting wars they can't fund. I don't see how anyone can say our form of capitalism works given our situation? Now if there were some governmental controls in place to limit and tarrif imports, and keep business that profit from the American consumer in American, maybe it would work.

                          Once again I ask, where the millions of jobs lost will come from in order to turn things around? Our economy is broken and needs fixing.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: How Would We Do If ?

                            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                            Andy, if by better managed you mean they crush any attempt at human or labor rights I agree. They also are not supporting millions of illegals, or fighting wars they can't fund. I don't see how anyone can say our form of capitalism works given our situation? Now if there were some governmental controls in place to limit and tarrif imports, and keep business that profit from the American consumer in American, maybe it would work.

                            Once again I ask, where the millions of jobs lost will come from in order to turn things around? Our economy is broken and needs fixing.
                            I mean better managed from a business standpoint. This includes the money we elect to spend on wasteful wars... and really, all the other boondoggle political vote-getting schemes, ruinous foreign policy decisions, etc.

                            Homeland Security just abandoned a program that they wasted a billion dollars on to secure the border. They said that they decided it was "impractical". Why didn't anyone in Government decide it was impractical BEFORE they spend the billion doolars? No one in that agency was fired for wasting a billion of your money. Yet 15 million people who didn't waste a BILLION are unemployed. That's a recent example of mismangement and waste in our Government, and why we can't let the government get deeper into the private sector.

                            The Chinese approach to social, environmental and human rights issues is deplorable. What is equally deplorable IMO is that US consumers, business and the US Government are turning a blind eye towards it. DO we want to blame coprporate America? You can... but since when are corporations chartered to look after our social conscience? I look at the gazillion consumers that buy products made under those conditions as the problem... corporate America is just giving the people what they want. We should take responsibility for what we buy. If we don't buy it, then the corporations won't stay in China long... or China will have to start acting more responsibly. But really, how many really check to see where a product is made before they support them, or even care? There are a few of us... but not nearly enough.

                            But neglecting social, environmental and human rights issues, and I didn't mean to imply that these issues aren't significant, the fact is that China is executing capitalism better than we are. That is why our jobs are going offshore.

                            You ask where the jobs are going to come from. Well, we have to lure them back from China There is no reason on earth to concede that we can't get the jobs back. They lured them away from the US, why in heavens name can't we do the same? We have every advantage in terms of education, productivity, a more trained workforce, stronger engineering, and for the time being, the financial wherewithal to do it. Not to mention that the largest consumer market in the world is right here. It makes no sense to concede that the jobs can't come back. The simple solution is, we must create a business climate that makes it more profitable for corporations to manufacture in the US. Corporations are whores. If it is a better deal to manufacture in the US, they will be back, plain and simple. That's how China got our industry in the first place. It wasn't because they are smarter, or because it's easy to manage a manufacturer on the other side of the world.

                            As long as we insist on nonsense like Sarabanes-Oxley, cap and trade, health care tied to employment, and stifling/over-reactionary government restrictions, we are going to continue to lose jobs. It is not a coincidence that we've been doing this nonsense for 40 years and the Country's been going downhill for 40 years.

                            The sad fact is that Government regulation has never worked. We should NEVER be asking for more Government regulation. We need smaller government, less government, and less government meddling. That is WHY the system id broken. Capitalism is a well proven system. That is why we became a great country. China is letting it's industry run with a minimum of intervention and restriction, other than they provide subsidies and other advantages... not restrictions! Increasing government control of the private sector will drive more coffin nails into the United States.

                            If we don't get those jobs back, it won't be because it can't happen. It will be because We The People and/or our Government (including state governments, who add tons of their own crazy regulations - I live in CA and see this every day) refuse to get real and start competing for those jobs. Government needs to stop rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, cut red tape, restructure the tax code, and heavily inventivize long term investment in domestic production. We need an effective energy policy to stop the huge outflow of money to the oil exporting nations. And We The People need to buy American.

                            Corporate America needs to simply do what they do... follow the money. It's not a bad thing, it's a very good thing. If business can make money here, then they employ here -- and production jobs generaly pay higher than service sector jobs. Htey grow OUR economy, and the US gets the tax revenue instead of China, which is essential if we are to get out og the Federal budget crisis. In fact it's the ONLY way out of this mess. Why throw 200 years of American ideals and capitalist success out the window? If we do, we will end up like all the other non-capitalist nations... on the sidelines, watching the big boys play and wondering where our next meal is going to come from.

                            Doesn't it make more sense to look at what worked for us in the past and embrace that formula? Doesn't it make sense to look at where we got off-track and fix that? The United States more or less invented effective capitalism and taught the world how to do it. They learned, we apparently forgot. It's really not a mystery.
                            Last edited by Andy_M; 01-21-2011, 04:10 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: How Would We Do If ?

                              Andy, I don't think we can lure our jobs back from china. We can't deny they have a cheap labor force, and don't have to contend with the EPA or OSHA. The earth, air and water in china can be polluted with no lawsuits from the people to make them stop. Workers in china can get hurt and be at risk with no one, no Union, no OSHA, no NLRB to step in and protect them.

                              Seems that it took a long time for things in our country to reach a head, but we are growing closer with states on the verge of bankruptcy and so many folks out of work. In my opinion if our legislators don't move quickly to hamper imports and get our manufacturing back to what it was forty years ago we stand no chance of pulling out of this mess.

                              Corporations are not going to reduce their profit margins willingly, and right now china has the cheapest whores and no police to contend with so where would you place your bets? Sorry to rant on, I'll stop because I see no possible way our legislators will step up. We will keep buying the laptops, digital cameras, cell phones, ipods, ipads, flat screens and every other short lived piece of electronics they offer, as we go further into debt to enrich others.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: How Would We Do If ?

                                Well, if you are right, then things will get worse and we had better all start making plans to go somewhere else. With a $13T debt, plus an unfunded liability that pushes that number to nearly $60T, almost 5 times the GDP, we clearly MUST re-establish a healthy economy to survive. The shell game can't go on indefinitely. The Federal Government is insolvent today, having to print money to fund current obligations. With 15M unemployed, and no willingness to fight to get those jobs back, the game is over.

                                Well, it may be. But not because of Chinese labor costs. The labor advantage China has is overstated. It's a 10-20 percent reduction in production costs of goods AT MOST, and their lower productivity plus the cost of doing business in China offsets that and then some. Labor costs are not the reason manufacturing is going offshore. This has been discussed, and not worth repeating. The labor cost argument is all a fantasy concocted to place blame for the job loss on the backs of the American worker, and to prepare us all for a serious decline in his standard of living.

                                There will be a decline, but not because of cheap labor from China. The real reason is the mega transfer of wealth from you and I to the financial industry. When was the last time you got an 8 figure bonus? The mechanism for this wealth transfer is monetary policy. Our central bank system (the fifth pillar of communism, btw, is a central bank system according to Marx) operates strictly by expansion of credit and expansion of the money supply. Here with the greatest economic crisis since the 1930s, caused almost entirely by overextension of credit (housing bubble, subprime crisis, and massive consumer credit card debt), what is your Government doing? Maintaining loose credit, expanding the money supply, giving stimulus packages and encouraging people to spend!

                                Huh? It's like we're all in an episode of the Twighlight Zone. We're passing out free heroine to junkies. Eventually they die. It's one way to solve the problem, I guess.

                                I agree that is unlikely that the Government will come around. I don't see that tariffs are necessarily a bad thing, but I am sure they are not the answer, either. They may be a part of a reasonable solution. We achieved greatness as a nation not based on tariffs, but based on hard work and smarts. Governmental rules and artificial restrictions cannot replace hard work and smarts. Deep inside, we all know that. At least I hope we do.

                                I am unwilling to give up, because as I see it there is no choice. I just today got yet another response from my congressperson, citing several key points in my last communication that she thought were good points and agreed with. She has become anti-Fed in just the last year. Is this due to me? No of course not. But maybe my little voice is helping in some small way to push her along. I hope so. It could get ugly in this country. We are not immune.

                                What does this mean? Maybe nothing. But then again, there is no other avenue other than to start storing your precious metals overseas and make sure your passport is in order.

                                I hate to see you resign yourself to our doom. There are a only a few that seem to care.
                                Last edited by Andy_M; 01-21-2011, 05:09 PM.

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