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  • Trend?

    Is this a trend? Or isolated stories for shock value?

    Curious....

    My degree isn't worth the debt! - Erik Solecki (1) - CNNMoney


    J.C.

  • #2
    Re: Trend?

    These days graduates seem to be generally finding that mathematics, engineering and information technology (IT) are the degrees that produce good paying jobs for graduates. The social degrees, psychology and teaching degrees are not worth the money it costs to get them from a financial point of view.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Trend?

      Also depends on where you live, That IT degree is worth a lot less outside of the major metro areas. I went to school for IT. turns out I didn't want to sit behind a desk all day, and for the area I lived in, the money just wasn't worth it. I paid for college as I went thankfully, so no student loans. Many of the people I went to high school with are currently buried in debt and make well under a middle class income. IMO for most professions college is an outdated social exercise that has little to do with a Real education
      No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Trend?

        It's neither a trend or isolated stories, it's the god damn reality. We live in age where a man is somehow suppose to cough up tens, and in many cases hundreds of thousands of dollars, just for the privilage of improving himself, something made worse by the fact that federal assistance loans do not go away when a person files for bankruptcy. Also, let us just say that even if a graduate doesn't find a job, so instead steps up and starts his own company, just how the hell is such a person suppose to be able to get a loan, even less the capital for a start up when already saddled with a debt larger than most morgages? And yet, we all have been drilled into our skulls since 1st grade how important college is.

        Guess it's time roll these out. This person is much more able to explain things than I am.

        YouTube - ‪Career talks‬‏
        YouTube - ‪Career talks 2‬‏
        YouTube - ‪Career talks 3‬‏ - Lets not forget the cost of healthcare.
        Last edited by tailgunner; 06-26-2011, 12:27 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Trend?

          I think my degree was worth it. The thing that helps most is going to a state school, it also helped that I could live at home. Tuition is now just under $5,000/year at SUNY (State University of New York). Is the $140,000 in debt that some of those people are listing for a bachelors really providing $120,000 more value than the SUNY degree? Education is all about ROI, but not many people thing about it that way. The $20,000 (say even $30,000 for an MS) is not hard to make up over a small number of years.

          And I'll note that even with tuition at $5,000/year one guy who was going to SUNY Albany has $80,000 in debt. He could be out-of-state which is $13,380; but still seems to me like he must have been doing minimal if productive work during that time to offset it.
          Last edited by cpw; 06-27-2011, 06:51 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Trend?

            I used to be and owner/operator truck driver leased to a small trucking company that delivered building materials in the Northwest region. One day one of the yard guys at the place we hauled for looked came up to my boss and asked,"How do you survive in life since you never went to college?" My boss looked at him and said,"I never went to college and I am the owner of a profitable company that runs six extended hood Peterbilts pulling 53' quad axle flatbeds. You have a degree and there you sit on a forklift working for an hourly wage. Exactly what is your degree doing for you?" The guy was speechless.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Trend?

              Originally posted by cpw View Post
              I think my degree was worth it. The thing that helps most is going to a state school, it also helped that I could live at home. Tuition is now just under $5,000/year at SUNY (State University of New York). Is the $140,000 in debt that some of those people are listing for a bachelors really providing $120,000 more value than the SUNY degree? Education is all about ROI, but not many people thing about it that way. The $20,000 (say even $30,000 for an MS) is not hard to make up over a small number of years.

              And I'll note that even with tuition at $5,000/year one guy who was going to SUNY Albany has $80,000 in debt. He could be out-of-state which is $13,380; but still seems to me like he must have been doing minimal if productive work during that time to offset it.
              In your case, I would agree. I get the impression that you are like a person that worked for us through High School and College. He had the mental, physical, and drive to achieve most anything. He can be a fantastic carpenter, but also be someone that is hired to perform in an analytical "think tank" somewhere.

              He became an electrical engineer for Duke Energy group. And trust me, they look to him to solve what's wrong.

              You strike me as the same type.

              However, people like this are a small part of the population. Nothing wrong with that except that we seem to have developed a system to make all believe that they are equally able to do the same things and are wrong if they do not pursue this. Add to that there is an ever declining demand for these learned occupations with an ever increasing amount of people supposedly qualified, declining salaries vs. ever increasing tuition outrunning the percentage increase in salaries and......it seems like a mathematical formula for failure.

              Rising college costs price out middle class - Jun. 13, 2011

              P.S. I have no idea how some accrue $100,000 of college debt in 4 to 6 years. It's like they make no effort to decrease/control it or make decisions to make it lower right from the start. A person putting themselves in such a position speaks more about their intelligence and character than their degree ever will in my opinion.


              J.C.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Trend?

                J.C. -

                I have 2 retired College Professors that are customers, and they don't know each other at all. Both of them told me how they think College is a big scam, and they feel sorry for the majority of kids who are buried in debt over it. Now obviously they both said Engineers,Doctors, Lawyers etc..are excluded from the norm.

                But..

                My wife who had absolutely No college degree at the time, walked in to one of the top 10 Pharmaceuticals in the world, and landed a job. She got that job over those who had a college degrees, and I told her that companies DO HIRE people without college degrees. Since she's been hired, her company has already paid for her associates, and she's almost done with her Bachelors. Believe it or not, the "Character" of a person still matters to some companies.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Trend?

                  Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                  In your case, I would agree. I get the impression that you are like a person that worked for us through High School and College. He had the mental, physical, and drive to achieve most anything. He can be a fantastic carpenter, but also be someone that is hired to perform in an analytical "think tank" somewhere.

                  He became an electrical engineer for Duke Energy group. And trust me, they look to him to solve what's wrong.

                  You strike me as the same type.

                  However, people like this are a small part of the population. Nothing wrong with that except that we seem to have developed a system to make all believe that they are equally able to do the same things and are wrong if they do not pursue this. Add to that there is an ever declining demand for these learned occupations with an ever increasing amount of people supposedly qualified, declining salaries vs. ever increasing tuition outrunning the percentage increase in salaries and......it seems like a mathematical formula for failure.

                  Rising college costs price out middle class - Jun. 13, 2011

                  P.S. I have no idea how some accrue $100,000 of college debt in 4 to 6 years. It's like they make no effort to decrease/control it or make decisions to make it lower right from the start. A person putting themselves in such a position speaks more about their intelligence and character than their degree ever will in my opinion.


                  J.C.
                  Another interesting one from the one you linked:
                  Is a college degree really worth $1 million? - Sep. 10, 2010

                  They link to 6 jobs you can do without a college degree, but except for 2 of them (court reporter and elevator mechanic) all of them were senior level jobs that you really need to put in your dues to get.

                  I don't think we have a decreasing demand for these kind of occupations, but its all about getting into one most efficiently. I agree with you, people who are racking up $100,000+ in debt are not managing their burn rate well.

                  Quoting from the article:
                  About two thirds of students graduating with four-year degrees recently did so with loans hanging over their heads, and their average bill comes in at a whopping $23,186, according to FinAid.org.
                  $23,000 doesn't seem like a lot of money to me to get started. It is about the same amount of debt you could take on by buying a new car. This is a startup cost that you can make back (just think about how much you've got invested in tools and education, its the same idea to me).

                  I think college worked out well for me, and I think in general it can be a good idea if you're motivated. That doesn't mean its for everybody, or that everyone can do it.

                  With our without college, your work ethic and attitude is going to be a bigger determinant than anything else.

                  And there are useless degrees too. My sister is getting a Ph.D. in Victorian literature. All she can do is teach Victorian literature. I don't see a payback for that. She isn't borrowing money, but 5 prime years of earning carries a significant opportunity cost.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Trend?

                    Where I went to college (UCLA), the admissions website estimates the total cost of attending to range from $22.2k to $27.6k per year for state residents, and $45 to $50k per year for out of state residents. Looking at their breakdown, I don't think many could do it for this little. But let's accept them and look at the numbers.

                    If parents cough up $15k per year - and many can't go this high - and the kid works an avg of 20 hours per week at $10/hour for another $9500 (after taxes) that makes in-state costs barely affordable. But the non-residents, will still be $25k short. There's your $100k in debt after 4 years. Many take 5 years to get out. Throw in a year of graduate school, and you're up to $150k.

                    Many schools are substantially more $$ than Univ of CA.

                    I believe that the reason tuition is so high is the Gov't, which guarantees loans to more or less anyone that can get accepted into a college. The colleges play the game well.

                    As an example, the UCLA website shows lists state resident tuition, student service fees and health insurance at $12,843 per year. Apples-to-apples costs I paid (class of 1979) were $702 per year. Adjusting for inflation, the cost today should be around $3000, not the $13000 they are charging.

                    I think $13000 per student per year is crazy... and UC has always been one of the best bang-for-the-buck university systems in the country.

                    If Gov't stopped the indiscriminate loan guarantees, everyone wouldn't be able to go to college. I don't think everyone necessarily should go to college. How many political science majors do we need working at Banana Republic?? But I also believe that this would mean that colleges would have to compete for students, and costs would come down. As Gov't has gotten deeper and deeper into the business of financing college, costs have gone ballistic. I don't think it's a coincidence. The parents are happy; little Johnnie goes to college. The lender is happy; the Uncle Sugar guarantees the loan, and the interest rate isn't all that low. Only the kid is screwed, stuck with a debt he probably didn't even understand when he started and a crappy job now that he has his sheepskin.

                    They even offer loans for Jr. College, which strikes me as particularly odd.

                    Every time the Gov't mucks with the free market, things get worse. Despite how they market it, college has been turned into a lucrative business for the financial industry. Shouldn't surprise anyone, though.... the financial industry owns the Gov't.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Trend?

                      Been waiting for it to happen. I bet it begins happening more and more dependent on early outcomes.

                      So You Want to Go to Law School?


                      J.C.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Trend?

                        Interesting take. Maybe should have more on the panel that are "Pro" university to get a clearer viewpoint.

                        First segment. Others on YouTube of the complete show if interested.



                        Or, complete show here.

                        Hulu - Stossel: Thu, Jun 30, 2011 - Watch the full episode now.


                        J.C.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Trend?

                          My daughter was accepted at U Penn recently and opted for a different college. She graduated Cornell Phi Beta Kappa and is a really bright kid. I have my doubts about her taking on the kind of loans necessary to graduate law school, but she is determined. Young folks taking on these huge debts and not finding work is upsetting, but there are folks who are doing their best to find work by enrolling in all sorts of vocational schools that result in no jobs as well. Times are tough, jobs are scarce. What's the answer?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Trend?

                            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                            My daughter was accepted at U Penn recently and opted for a different college. She graduated Cornell Phi Beta Kappa and is a really bright kid. I have my doubts about her taking on the kind of loans necessary to graduate law school, but she is determined. Young folks taking on these huge debts and not finding work is upsetting, but there are folks who are doing their best to find work by enrolling in all sorts of vocational schools that result in no jobs as well. Times are tough, jobs are scarce. What's the answer
                            Your daughter may be of the fortunate percentage to have the mental faculties along with the drive & dedication to make the most of her college education.

                            But one argument touched on in the program is that she probably would be just as successful without ever attending a university. It's just that we've been taught to believe that the university produces these successful people when in reality it might be that these people, that would be just as successful sans the college system, are attending because they have been conditioned to do so. I'm starting to lean this way as well.

                            Answers? Don't have any. Sorry. I do know from seeing the costs and knowing some that work at universities , both private and public, that they have in general become businesses first.

                            An institution for higher learning producing a great product comes very much second-if at all.


                            J.C.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Trend?

                              We have a rule in our house: College is only an option if it can be done without incurring any debt. This means that we have been saving since the kids have been babies, encourage good grades in hopes of a scholarship of some sort, stress the importance of working in their junior and senior high school years, and leaving other options (e.g., military) on the table.

                              Too many have accrued a mountain of debt (bad move #1) with the hopes of paying for it later with an income that is not even remotely assured (bad move #2). Kind of sounds like our government, doesn't it?

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