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  • #16
    Re: Throwing Stones

    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
    Andy, you are apologizing for and justifying bad behavior. Bad behavior is bad behavior. It makes no difference what the circumstances leading up to it are, it's still bad behavior. Refrain from being judgemental, really? think long and hard about that. We judge everyone and everything. It's one of those little human things that has managed to keep us alive since we first climbed down from the branches. Every citizen has a responsibility to himself, his family and society. Without the balance of the three everything falls apart fast.
    NHM, I agree with your post and from my observations, just about everything is falling apart. Our society has some great people, unfortunately there are enough to tip the scales in the wrong direction. I do think there are many unworkable situations that arise in marriage, and divorce is not an option. Infidelity just leads to a whole set of other problems, which leads me to think there must be some alternatives. Personally I'm frustrated, depressed, confused, lonely and very much in love. Life can be very challenging and rarely fair!

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    • #17
      Re: Throwing Stones

      I believe that if people would be a little more careful with their behavior and the decisions that they make that many of these divorce situatiations could be headed off at the pass so to speak. The marriage vows used to be binding and sacred and there was motivation to make the marriage work because society and the church frowned on divorce and there was a stigma attached. The stigma's gone and so is the commitment. Nowadays couples try being married and if it doesn't work out it's easy enough to end it. Unfortunately many of these same couples also "try" at child rearing with disasterous results. Marriage is the hardest work you will ever do. It does not come naturally to anyone. Compromise, understanding, committment and patience are so much more important in marriage than love is. Love comes without thought.
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      • #18
        Re: Throwing Stones

        Well, I guess there is a growing number of states that feel the subject of adultery should simply be a misdemeanor, Colorodo is the latest example:
        UPDATED: Crime of adultery may be repealed in Colorado

        As for me, I simply prevent the issue from occurring the first place through renouncing the practice of marriage. The number of times I get patted on the back for this scares even me, especially from men already married. It's a shame too, I wouldn't mind getting married, considering it's a pillar that has held up many a society over the ages. However, in these times, there are too many of, and too great of risks, to include financial ruin, over the course of years, even decades to even consider. No thank you.
        Last edited by tailgunner; 07-01-2011, 06:41 PM.

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        • #19
          Re: Throwing Stones

          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
          I believe that if people would be a little more careful with their behavior and the decisions that they make that many of these divorce situatiations could be headed off at the pass so to speak. The marriage vows used to be binding and sacred and there was motivation to make the marriage work because society and the church frowned on divorce and there was a stigma attached. The stigma's gone and so is the commitment. Nowadays couples try being married and if it doesn't work out it's easy enough to end it. Unfortunately many of these same couples also "try" at child rearing with disasterous results. Marriage is the hardest work you will ever do. It does not come naturally to anyone. Compromise, understanding, committment and patience are so much more important in marriage than love is. Love comes without thought.
          Unfortunately people are not more careful and make bad decisions. While there may be some folks who are quick to throw in the towel without giving it a good try, there are also those who stay too long in a loveless, sometimes mentally or physically abusive marriages. Marriage is hard work for those who will make that effort. Regarding child rearing, I could not agree more, it requires an unrelenting effort and clear mind free from alcohol and drugs. We do not have that in our society and since we cannot force sterilization or birth control, abortion is a sad alternative. Our society is in ruins because people who should not get married or have children do so. We can't impose many requirements or standards in these areas, and we are lucky if folks make much of an effort at all. Just look around, bars, clubs, every sort of Internet site to promote sex and infidelity, our society is shot! We as individuals can choose to be responsible in our jobs, our marriages and as parents, but we are in the minority. I have had very attractive married women who knew I was married come on to me, I always declined but I'm willing to bet most guys would not.

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          • #20
            Re: Throwing Stones

            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
            Andy, you are apologizing for and justifying bad behavior. Bad behavior is bad behavior. It makes no difference what the circumstances leading up to it are, it's still bad behavior. Refrain from being judgemental, really? think long and hard about that. We judge everyone and everything. It's one of those little human things that has managed to keep us alive since we first climbed down from the branches. Every citizen has a responsibility to himself, his family and society. Without the balance of the three everything falls apart fast.
            I don't believe I am apologizing for anything. I'm just pointing out that your sense of morality may be different than someone else's, that cultures have differing value systems, and that values and societal norms change with time. Seems like those points are fairly self-evident.

            Of course the circumstances leading up to one's behavior make a difference! If you shoot someone who breaks into your home and points a weapon at you, isn't that different than shooting someone on the street because they flipped you off? An extreme example, but it points out that circumstances are generally very relevant.

            I understand that it is hard to justify infidelity. I can't come up with a justification for it, and am not really trying to. But I can understand mitigating circumstances that IMO make such a transgression a far lesser sin. For all you or I know, he caught his wife doing the pool boy, but didn't want to divorce for the sake of the kids. Does that justify Mr. Hansen's affair? No. But it also casts his behavior in substantially different light. My point is, you don't really know and neither do I, so what exactly qualifies either of us to judge this guy? That's all I'm saying.

            Few things are black and white. When considering things in total, I don't think many of us would fare too well if we were all subject to black and white judgements. That's my opinion, you are free to hold a different one.

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            • #21
              Re: Throwing Stones

              Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
              I don't believe I am apologizing for anything. I'm just pointing out that your sense of morality may be different than someone else's, that cultures have differing value systems, and that values and societal norms change with time. Seems like those points are fairly self-evident.

              Of course the circumstances leading up to one's behavior make a difference! If you shoot someone who breaks into your home and points a weapon at you, isn't that different than shooting someone on the street because they flipped you off? An extreme example, but it points out that circumstances are generally very relevant.

              I understand that it is hard to justify infidelity. I can't come up with a justification for it, and am not really trying to. But I can understand mitigating circumstances that IMO make such a transgression a far lesser sin. For all you or I know, he caught his wife doing the pool boy, but didn't want to divorce for the sake of the kids. Does that justify Mr. Hansen's affair? No. But it also casts his behavior in substantially different light. My point is, you don't really know and neither do I, so what exactly qualifies either of us to judge this guy? That's all I'm saying.

              Few things are black and white. When considering things in total, I don't think many of us would fare too well if we were all subject to black and white judgements. That's my opinion, you are free to hold a different one.
              Yeah I get what your saying......if the woman Chris Hansen was screwing down in Florida pulled a gun on him and then spread her legs then he had no choice but to bang her even tho he is married....,then its justified. Yes I agree.
              Shooting a person can be justified in many ways........screwin some whore down in Fl cant be. If he caught her with the pool boy then he should have worked it out and accepted it or divorced so he can screw other women without reducing himself to her level and becoming the story instead of reporting the story.

              He has a character flaw and there is no justification for it. His wife should chop his balls off and sue the other woman for damages.

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              • #22
                Re: Throwing Stones

                I think we have been conditioned over the past 30 years or so to see things that are black and white in shades of grey. sure there are exceptions to everything but political correctness and the inability to make moral decisions will be the downfall of civilization as more and more people see the world through selfish eyes.
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                • #23
                  Re: Throwing Stones SORRY CHRIS,ONLY 1 WAY OUT !!

                  Chris,the only way to redeem yourself is if you ,your mistresses, and wive go one the jerry springer show
                  I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

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                  • #24
                    Re: Throwing Stones SORRY CHRIS,ONLY 1 WAY OUT !!

                    QUOTE=TheMaster;350165]Yeah I get what your saying......if the woman Chris Hansen was screwing down in Florida pulled a gun on him and then spread her legs then he had no choice but to bang her even tho he is married....,then its justified. Yes I agree.
                    Shooting a person can be justified in many ways........screwin some whore down in Fl cant be. If he caught her with the pool boy then he should have worked it out and accepted it or divorced so he can screw other women without reducing himself to her level and becoming the story instead of reporting the story.

                    He has a character flaw and there is no justification for it. His wife should chop his balls off and sue the other woman for damages.[/QUOTE]

                    Master, I used to think like you and I still get mad when married folks cheat because it goes against what they vowed and what I practice.
                    There are many situations in which folks stay married, cannot divorce and either suffer the loneliness and frustration or cheat. There are plenty of married couples who have lost their passion, suffer from health problems, have a sick child who needs constant care, or who do not have the financial means to divorce without hurting others. Yes, they entered into marriage and took vows but life got in the way in such an unexpected and unfixable way that they either waste away or do what they can in the situation. That does not excuse their behavior but it does expain it and how complicated things can get. Marriage is in trouble because aside from what I mentioned there are too many spouses who cheat for no other reason than opportunity and lack of conscience. Our society has plenty bandaids for broken marriages but very few ideas to prevent them. Most folks enter into marriage and vows based on emotions, can we reasonably expect them to use rational thinking afterwards? I myself do! I try to understand what is happening, why my wife and I feel and behave as we do and I prevent myself from acting on instinct. I love my wife but there are health issues that complicate our relationship, it takes an almost constant awareness, discipline and willpower to keep from crossing the line and becoming another stereotype and statistic.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Throwing Stones SORRY CHRIS,ONLY 1 WAY OUT !!

                      Franki,Its real simple if people want to screw other woman and their married.....get a divorce or get permission from their wife to screw other woman.

                      Sick children etc etc has nothing to do with wanting some strange. Its an excuse and not a valid one. Its a character defect.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Throwing Stones SORRY CHRIS,ONLY 1 WAY OUT !!

                        Well in the end it all boils down to a generation of people that are only concerned with "me" What I want. What I need. What I deserve. There is very little in the way of self sacrafice these days and even less self control. You can directly pin just about every single problem in the world, from the economy to gangs, drugs, sex abuse, terrorism etc, on self centered, ego-centric people that care only for what they can get. Advertisers have convinced an entire generation that they deserve to have things even though they can not afford them. We are in a housing crunch because banks lent money to people that they KNEW would default on the loan but because they got their share from the sale that was all that mattered. Gas is 370 a gallon because a whole bunch of greedy investors are allowed to drive the market.
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                        • #27
                          Re: Throwing Stones SORRY CHRIS,ONLY 1 WAY OUT !!

                          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                          Well in the end it all boils down to a generation of people that are only concerned with "me" What I want. What I need. What I deserve. There is very little in the way of self sacrafice these days and even less self control. You can directly pin just about every single problem in the world, from the economy to gangs, drugs, sex abuse, terrorism etc, on self centered, ego-centric people that care only for what they can get. Advertisers have convinced an entire generation that they deserve to have things even though they can not afford them. We are in a housing crunch because banks lent money to people that they KNEW would default on the loan but because they got their share from the sale that was all that mattered. Gas is 370 a gallon because a whole bunch of greedy investors are allowed to drive the market.
                          NHM, I agree with your post for the most part and it is evidenced in everything you mentioned. I do think there is some fine balance to be found in which moms and dads set aside some time for themselves as individuals and as a couple. I have observed folks who give of themselves for their elderly and needy parents, extended family and of course their own children. All spare time is devoted to things involving their children, sports or other child related activities. The result is children who expect complete attention and parents who ignore their own need to stay active and remain passionate adults. There are very few folks who can find that balance and as a result folks get out of shape, out of touch with their spouse and have all sorts of problems. Responsible folks need to work and take time to raise their children, but they also have to set an example of how to take care of one's self and one's marriage. My wife for example has spent a lot of time caring for her parents who had very serious health problems at what I consider to be an early age after raising a large family and ignoring their own needs.

                          I can't think about this Thread and not bring up modern medicine and all the complications to our economy and personal lives it has impacted. People can afford to live longer but often with very limited capacity, and at great expense. Where do we find the balance in providing health care and preserving life? None of these things are as simple as I would like, and I think we often find the horse chasing the cart.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Throwing Stones SORRY CHRIS,ONLY 1 WAY OUT !!

                            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                            I think we have been conditioned over the past 30 years or so to see things that are black and white in shades of grey. sure there are exceptions to everything but political correctness and the inability to make moral decisions will be the downfall of civilization as more and more people see the world through selfish eyes.

                            Interesting comment, as it makes my point. PC is the application of black and white rules based on simple definitions, mostly with respect to the choice of certain verbiage. Those concerned with PC stop processing the message when a politically incorrect phrase is mentioned. The judgement is based on a shallow black or white rule of thumb rather than careful consideration of the message and/or its context.

                            The opposite of PC is listening to the message, not just the specific phraseology, and understanding the meaning. This would necessarily involve the "grey areas".

                            Is this a good thing or not so good? You seem to at once be condemning PC but also condemning looking at the grey areas. Sorry, as I see it, thoughtful consideration is never a bad thing. It would be nice (and easy) if everything were truly black or white. Humanity would have no need for philosophers, clergy... or juries. But reality is that things are almost never black or white. Especially issues of morality,ethics, right v. wrong.

                            Actually, I think a problem with society iis that we think to little. We also like to sit in judgement of Chris Hansen and Lindsay Lohan and Charlie Sheen. Maybe it makes us feel superior. Or maybe it makes us feel like there are people in the worls that are more screwed up than we are. Maybe we like to do this because it gives us a justification for some truly scary beliefs, like it's ok to shoot your wife and her lover if you catch them in the act? I don't know. But I do know that I see no benefit to any of it, and the propensity to judge - which we are *all* guilty of from time to time - is a very unattractive trait.

                            Jesus, probably the only person ever actually not have any skeletons in his closet, taught, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Is his admonition to avoid judging others therefore responsible for the moral decay of modern society? I happen to believe that failure to follow this wisdom has more to do with the problem.

                            As I see it, my concern is my own behavior and that of my family. When I have to choose an elected official, I worry about if I think he/she is decent and has integrity. When I have to do business with someone, I consider the same things. Beyond those sorts of things, it is not my place to judge anyone, and I could give a rats fuzzy backside about their opinion of me. Jesus, IMO, made a good point.

                            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                            Well in the end it all boils down to a generation of people that are only concerned with "me" What I want. What I need. What I deserve. There is very little in the way of self sacrafice these days and even less self control. You can directly pin just about every single problem in the world, from the economy to gangs, drugs, sex abuse, terrorism etc, on self centered, ego-centric people that care only for what they can get. Advertisers have convinced an entire generation that they deserve to have things even though they can not afford them. We are in a housing crunch because banks lent money to people that they KNEW would default on the loan but because they got their share from the sale that was all that mattered. Gas is 370 a gallon because a whole bunch of greedy investors are allowed to drive the market.
                            Ego, greed, selfishness are not exclusive to this time or generation. They are human nature. Often the results are not pretty, but also often these traits have driven some of the greatest accomplishments and most significant people in history. There has never been a shortage of ego, greed or selfishness in the world. Ever.

                            You can lament human nature but you can't change it. If it was really the cause of the problem, humanity wouldn't have lasted near this long.

                            As I see it, the problem is as aspect of human nature that you didn't mention: apathy. Thinking is hard work. Reading is hard work. Listening is hard work. Apathy is at the root of PC... it's too easy to hear sound bytes and make judgements, and too hard to process the message. Critically evaluating what we're told or otherwise presented with is *very* hard work. Many people, as long as they have relative comfort, would rather watch "Entertainment Tonight" than learn about the global economy or what it going on in Government. Can't blame them, those subjects are pretty dry. But that's the source of the problems. It's not the greedy that want to take your money. They've always been there. It's the apathetic that LET them.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Throwing Stones SORRY CHRIS,ONLY 1 WAY OUT !!

                              A lot of good comments and points there Andy. I think that you are right is observing that many people seem to do their best to avoid deep thought whenever possible
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                              • #30
                                Re: Throwing Stones SORRY CHRIS,ONLY 1 WAY OUT !!

                                I appreciate your open mindedness.

                                For what it's worth, I also understand what you're getting at regarding being conditioned to look at the grey areas. I think often the grey areas aren't really grey areas.... they are fabricated attemtps at diversion, misdirection, and spin that are aimed at "baffling them with b*ll$hit". Any yes, if that's your meaning then I really can't possibly have any disagreement there. The Casey Anthony trial is a great example of that. The defense has introduced all sorts of nonsense... father had an affair, tried to commit suicide, dysfunctional family.... yadda yadda yadda. I don't follow it obsessively but I do read about the daily events in the paper. As I've said, I am willing to consider the details. But in this case, none of the details seem to have much to do with the crime. Looks to me like a strategy of distraction. Still, the jury needed to hear it all to be able to decide one way or the other.
                                Last edited by Andy_M; 07-02-2011, 02:29 PM.

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