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May 2011

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  • #16
    Re: May 2011

    Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
    Well, gee, let us think here for a second.

    For starters, contractors typically pay peanuts to their apprentices, and yet are always suprised they get monkeys! This drives those kids with an honest work ethic away, afterall, $8.00 an hour sure as hell isn't going to pay the food bill, even less the gasoline to get to work, and don't even believe for half a second to support going to a community college. We have to work, harder, longer, and more stressful than previous generations ever had to endure, inspite of the fact we have the most educated workforce in the history of this entire country! With this high level of education, is it really that wrong to pursue careers that are more mentally enlightening, and greater earning potential than turning a screwdriver? And yet, this attitude is "poo-pooed" upon as "being entitled". Excuse us, but we would like to enjoy the same benefits that previous generations reveled in such as affordable housing, food, education, and utilities, that you people all of a sudden labeled as "entitlements". In fact, due to upcoming deployment, my employer is going to be forced to hire an apprentice to take my place while I'm gone. However, he too was worried about being forced to hire someone that "really didn't want to work", and wondered how much he should pay. I suggested starting wage should be $15 an hour. I swear he almost snapped his own neck from turning his head so fast towards me, since on private jobs, I only get around $16 an hour, licensed. However, I know I spoke the truth because he was thinking in terms of dollars, while I reasoned in spending power.

    But, as always, do not EVER take my word for it, do the math yourselves. Today, at the present Federal minimum wage, a man has to work a full hour to afford one gallon of gasoline and one loaf of bread. Especially factoring the burden of carrying YOUR health insurance costs and taxes. Back in the 70's, a man only had to work TEN MINUTES at the Federal minimum wage THEN to afford the same things. We have to work harder on a level unseen since the "Gilded Age" so tell us again just how lazy we are.
    Who's fault is it that they are working for $8.00 an hour? Is it the bosses fault or is it the person who accepted the job?
    Instead of looking at what others have, you should stay more focused on yourself and your own priorities. Nobody owes you a living, and you're not entitled to anything but life,liberty and freedom.

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    • #17
      Re: May 2011

      The employer's fault. Afterall, the proverb "You get what you pay for" holds adamently true, even today. We hear all the time the whining and complaining about these so-called labor shortages, when in truth it is simply too many employers trying to get everything for nothing. Afterall, why should one business offer a reasonable wage when their competitors offer rock bottom pay? Also, Ever notice how much employers (Typically the larger ones) scream like stuck pigs when their own laws of supply and demand work in favor of the employees?

      Funny, to answer your last statement that was exactly was what was handed to previous generations as if they were entitled to it. And yes, we should see what others have, because it brings to light just how bad we have it.
      ******

      Bleh I'm going to bed, Look folks, resist the urge to to stop at a DnD to get a coffee for the drive home like I did, makes it immpossible to go to sleep, hence why I'm still up at the God-aweful hour.
      Last edited by tailgunner; 07-11-2011, 11:43 PM.

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      • #18
        Re: May 2011

        I understand that. And one would be led to believe that somewhere in the middle, something decent would be forged. In your case, hear me out, is in my opinion the ideal. A high wage, high expectation, especially at the start. The military does this quite well. They roll out a list of benefits, and roll out what is expected. Fail to live up to those expectations and you're out. However, as long as it is one's best financial interest to stick around we really should not have such problems.
        I know, life really isn't that perfect, but god damn, to be forced to bear such an inhumane burden, then to be told we are lazy?

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: May 2011

          Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
          The employer's fault. Afterall, the proverb "You get what you pay for" holds adamently true, even today. We hear all the time the whining and complaining about these so-called labor shortages, when in truth it is simply too many employers trying to get everything for nothing. Afterall, why should one business offer a reasonable wage when their competitors offer rock bottom pay? Also, Ever notice how much employers (Typically the larger ones) scream like stuck pigs when their own laws of supply and demand work in favor of the employees?

          Funny, to answer your last statement that was exactly was what was handed to previous generations as if they were entitled to it. And yes, we should see what others have, because it brings to light just how bad we have it.
          You're entitled to your convictions, but I simply don't agree with your views on this. Too many people on this forum and in this country came from nothing, and became very successful business owners through a lot of hard work and perseverance. My father had employees at one time and paid them $13.00 an hour (Plumbing Apprentice) in the 80's, and gave them all the over time they wanted, encouraged them to do side work, and gave them bonuses. He basically treated them like sons and it bit him in this a$$ with one of those employees, because that employee thought he was entitled to more money cause he was doing more work than the boss. So to get even for his entitlement, he started to steal material and all of a sudden the van got broken into 3 times and all of the tools stolen. He started doing his own side work during working hours because he knew he would make more money doing that, than being a good employee and leaving on the correct terms.

          See this employee forgot he was given an opportunity..a gift to make a better life for himself. He was taught a trade that could never be taken away from him in life. He also forgot that his boss (my father) paid for all his schooling, work van do to side work, and all of his tools that he was allowed to keep and this employee only looked at the bottom line $13.00 an hour plus overtime.

          The Union mentality of sweat shops and things of that nature is nothing more than fear mongering and total horse crap! No private business owner in the trades is going to pay an apprentice top dollar for just walking in off the street not knowing anything. You forget that an employee needs to prove himself and he is considered an investment to the company. I hope one day you achieve being a business owner and come back here and tell us how you were wrong, and it's not that easy just handing someone $25.00 an hr just because they should be entitled to it without proving his/her worth.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: May 2011

            Look, I'm not advocating "handing over $25 an hour".. What I AM advocating is offering a wage with the same spending power that you people were offered when you people first started.
            And yes, I too would like to run my own business someday. However, keep in mind, I had to buy my own tools, pay for my own schooling, and crank out the time. Speaking of time, I would go ahead and take the Master's classes, if it wasn't for the fact I usualy get home after such classes ended. But nevermind, I'm starting to whine here. However, such things no longer "cut it" anymore. Starting a business today is nothing like it was back then. The word "Insurance" as we all know speaks volumes of the financial burden we all carry. I have ssen morgage payments that are smaller.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: May 2011

              "The Union mentality of sweat shops and things of that nature is nothing more than fear mongering and total horse crap". Sorry Flux but you are sadly mistaken! I have seen sweat shops, they are real and you would not say such things if you knew better. The Union mentalitly helped bring about safer working conditions, less physical and mental abuse by bosses, sundays off and much needed benefits which helped raise our standard of living. Unions are American, are a representation of liberty and freedom, look at brutal communist societies and you won't find Unions. Unions can't survive in a society that over spends, goes into debt, makes nothing it consumes and expects to compete with slave labor by taking back from it's shrinking workforce. Not everyone can be a business owner and charge what the market will bear, folks like myself gave their all to private companies and bargained legally to get wages and benefits. We did not move businesses and jobs to mexico and abroad for greater profits, we did not benefit from the corporate lobbyists who bought washington. We pay for our services, we pay our taxes and we support our communities. Weaken us and America wil suffer. How much do you think you could charge a third world worker for your services? Not very much in my opinion. we either raise our standard of living with good paying jobs through which taxes and services can be paid or we continue to shrink our base.
              Tailgunner, my company could not pay me enough for the work I did and I'm sure the same applies to you! Never back down or step back, hold your ground and move forward against those who look to take from you and your dreams.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: May 2011

                Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
                Look, I'm not advocating "handing over $25 an hour".. What I AM advocating is offering a wage with the same spending power that you people were offered when you people first started.
                And yes, I too would like to run my own business someday. However, keep in mind, I had to buy my own tools, pay for my own schooling, and crank out the time. Speaking of time, I would go ahead and take the Master's classes, if it wasn't for the fact I usualy get home after such classes ended. But nevermind, I'm starting to whine here. However, such things no longer "cut it" anymore. Starting a business today is nothing like it was back then. The word "Insurance" as we all know speaks volumes of the financial burden we all carry. I have ssen morgage payments that are smaller.
                You're right...things are much harder for our generation and the kids coming up behind us. Within a year or so I'm about to be a first time home buyer, and I get pissed off at the price of homes in my area.

                I can't touch anything nice for less than $300,000. My new wife and I make decent money combined, but I get discouraged because I'm excited about finally being able to own my own home and I "want" but so do a lot of other people, and I don't live beyond my means. Things are just way too expensive in this country and the salaries are not matching the cost of living today. While these prices continue to climb, I'll never understand the thought process behind that. Every time costs go up wether it's taxes or whatever..we have to adjust our prices to compensate for that. These Politicians just don't get it...you raise prices...business owners just pass that cost onto the consumer...people that are struggling already.

                We lower taxes, quit the outlandish spending, and quit living beyond our means in this country, maybe people can have a much better chance of obtaining things a little better.

                I envy my parents generation, because things were just so much more affordable back then.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: May 2011

                  Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                  "The Union mentality of sweat shops and things of that nature is nothing more than fear mongering and total horse crap". Sorry Flux but you are sadly mistaken! I have seen sweat shops, they are real and you would not say such things if you knew better. The Union mentalitly helped bring about safer working conditions, less physical and mental abuse by bosses, sundays off and much needed benefits which helped raise our standard of living. Unions are American, are a representation of liberty and freedom, look at brutal communist societies and you won't find Unions. Unions can't survive in a society that over spends, goes into debt, makes nothing it consumes and expects to compete with slave labor by taking back from it's shrinking workforce. Not everyone can be a business owner and charge what the market will bear, folks like myself gave their all to private companies and bargained legally to get wages and benefits. We did not move businesses and jobs to mexico and abroad for greater profits, we did not benefit from the corporate lobbyists who bought washington. We pay for our services, we pay our taxes and we support our communities. Weaken us and America wil suffer. How much do you think you could charge a third world worker for your services? Not very much in my opinion. we either raise our standard of living with good paying jobs through which taxes and services can be paid or we continue to shrink our base.
                  Tailgunner, my company could not pay me enough for the work I did and I'm sure the same applies to you! Never back down or step back, hold your ground and move forward against those who look to take from you and your dreams.
                  I'm not mistaken about anything Frank....we have laws in place in this country against sweat shops. Those people are breaking the law...are they not? Those sweat shops normally have illegal immigrants or other minorities that don't know any better, and when they are found, they are dealt with swiftly and properly.

                  Unions are not American Frank...they are a criminal organization that uses intimidation,corruption,lies and force to push their agenda's. Not only is that not the American way...it's not the christian way of doing things is it? You're a christian man Frank...you said so yourself.


                  Unions were a good thing many moons ago before half of this board was even born. The laws we have in place today, make Unions obsolete imo.

                  A lot of our money problems in this country today is because of Unions. You're seeing it play out all over the country because of the greed and financial stress they put on the taxpayer and states. How many states are bankrupt Frank because of Public Unions? I live near one of them, and see it play out every day on the news. $629 million in debt for the city of brotherly love..and the taxpayers in this city have been getting raked over the coals for decades in this city. No wonder why Philly achieved the distinction of being the #2 most Taxed city in America.

                  *I mean no disrespect for those that currently work or use to work in any Unions. I'm placing blame towards the people at the top in the Unions...not the workers. My wife also works in a Union for a Pharmaceutical, so I get to see some things that happen at her work.*
                  Last edited by Flux; 07-12-2011, 12:59 AM. Reason: add things

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: May 2011

                    "*I mean no disrespect for those that currently work or use to work in any Unions." Sadly, you are not alone in your hate and ignorance. To say such things and then put that little disclaimer is like calling a black man the "N" word and then trying to weasel out afterwards! The states are in trouble because American based businesses that were paying taxes and employing Americans up and left. They moved to countries that did not have Unions, worker's rights, the EPA or OSHA. The folks who are trying to break Unions don't have the foresight to understand that without a return of those businesses and jobs it will be necessary to keep downsizing in order to keep up with the loss of tax revenue. I don't know what kind of lousy Union your wife is a part of but my Union was made up of folks who stuck together and did not allow "things" to happen. Unions could disappear altogether and nothing would improve because no business will return to the USA when they can pay slave wages and not deal with the EPA and OSHA. We have had fifty years of government run by democrats and republicans that took turns doing nothing to stop the loss of businesses, jobs and at the same time allowed illegals to enter at will and you are blaming Union? Amazing, the things that pass for rational thinking. There are all sorts of different ways to define patriots and christians, I'm one of those patriots that thinks it's unAmerican to insult Unions and I'm one of those Christians that doesn't turn the other cheek. We will have to agree to disagree.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: May 2011

                      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                      "*I mean no disrespect for those that currently work or use to work in any Unions." Sadly, you are not alone in your hate and ignorance. To say such things and then put that little disclaimer is like calling a black man the "N" word and then trying to weasel out afterwards! The states are in trouble because American based businesses that were paying taxes and employing Americans up and left. They moved to countries that did not have Unions, worker's rights, the EPA or OSHA. The folks who are trying to break Unions don't have the foresight to understand that without a return of those businesses and jobs it will be necessary to keep downsizing in order to keep up with the loss of tax revenue. I don't know what kind of lousy Union your wife is a part of but my Union was made up of folks who stuck together and did not allow "things" to happen. Unions could disappear altogether and nothing would improve because no business will return to the USA when they can pay slave wages and not deal with the EPA and OSHA. We have had fifty years of government run by democrats and republicans that took turns doing nothing to stop the loss of businesses, jobs and at the same time allowed illegals to enter at will and you are blaming Union? Amazing, the things that pass for rational thinking. There are all sorts of different ways to define patriots and christians, I'm one of those patriots that thinks it's unAmerican to insult Unions and I'm one of those Christians that doesn't turn the other cheek. We will have to agree to disagree.
                      Oh come on Frank...save the heroic speeches about Unions for someone else that's gullible enough to believe it. . When the truth is spoken, you play the "hate and ignorance" card right out of the playbook from those goons. The Unions today are no different than the italian Mob in this country...and that's a fact.

                      That little disclaimer is because negotiations are taken place right now in my wife's Union. Those knuckleheads are thinking about going on strike if they don't get a higher pay raise than the 3% they are already getting during the worst economy this country has ever seen. Instead of being thankful for a job, they will throw all common sense out the door to get another percentage out of the company when salary employees are getting 1 1/2 %. If they don't get their way, they will strike, but will also be endanger of this Pharmaceutical disbanding this Union forever, and going with salary employees instead. So they want 4% Frank...while the rest of the company isn't getting that, and will "threaten" if they don't...yea that's the American way alright.

                      The Unions only have themselves to blame for their jobs leaving this country. While the Unions blame people like Wall Street they forget that their pensions are tied to the stock market, but want the best of both worlds. The Unions is solely to blame for the reason Philadelphia is $629 million in the hole...and the city hasn't seen a Republican mayor since 1952!

                      I can't wait for the day Unions are a thing of the past.
                      Last edited by Flux; 07-12-2011, 06:43 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Re: May 2011

                        "The Unions today are no different than the italian Mob in this country...and that's a fact." Another ignorant opinion you consider fact. Go ahead and post some more hatred and ignore the real reason businesses and jobs are gone.

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                        • #27
                          Re: May 2011

                          Originally posted by TheMaster





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                          • #28
                            Re: May 2011

                            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                            Another ignorant opinion you consider fact. Go ahead and post some more hatred and ignore the real reason businesses and jobs are gone.
                            Opinion eh? I guess your TV didn't work while the protests went on in Wisconsin. The 7.5 million estimate to repair and clean-up the mess from those hooligans destruction of the capitol. I guess that's an opinion as well huh?

                            If you want to have a discussion with facts only when it comes to Unions Frank...I'm game. I don't think it's possible for you to have that discussion though, because the truth clearly bothers you. I guess the Philadelphia school district ( Teachers Union) being $629 million in the hole is an ignorant opinion as well huh? How dare I speak like that...that's hate speech!!! I mean you act like I'm making this up and expressing an opinion. Come on Frank...let's go through the years and go over all of the fraud, and corruption the Unions committed. I'll tell you what...I'm willing to bet if we listed all the good things the Unions did compared to the bad things, the bad side of that list would dwarf the good side...what do you say?

                            Glenn Beck said it best when he said.."The Truth has no agenda". Why are you so afraid of the truth Frank?

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                            • #29
                              Re: May 2011

                              How'd it get to this?

                              I just thought it was nice that someone was making an effort towards getting good recognition towards some occupations that have had less positive attention directed towards them over the past several years.


                              J.C.

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                              • #30
                                Re: May 2011

                                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                                How'd it get to this?

                                I just thought it was nice that someone was making an effort towards getting good recognition towards some occupations that have had less positive attention directed towards them over the past several years.


                                J.C.
                                How does any other thread on this forum spin out of control? Opposing viewpoints will always clash, and it's the nature of the beast. I mean christ..we are having our 200th drum versus sectional war in one of the other threads.

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