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  • #76
    Re: Verizon strike

    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
    One thing that I think is putting the "Wire Side" of the Union in a weaker position is how technology and consumer demand has changed. While there will always be hardware that has to be installed and serviced, it is quickly becoming a much smaller percentage. That, in turn, makes less people needed to run the whole thing, so there will be decreasing numbers in the union and less bargaining power.

    I'm not saying that's good, bad, or whatever. Just looks like where things are heading.


    J.C.
    When I started at the phone co 40 years ago the oldest cables were 3" in diameter lead sheathed over heavy copper 900 pairs. Fifteen years later same diameter cable pvc over thinner copper 3600 pairs. Just a few years later 1/2 diameter fiber optic cable could take the place of countless copper cables only limited by the technology at either end. The cost and complexity of distributing those lines at the termination point is not cheap. I can't imagine where it's all headed? Total wireless dependence is risky. Underground lines are better protected than overhead but it takes a huge workforce to maintain the sytem that's in place. Nature is constantly beating up the system, it's not the kind of thing that gets installed and works fine for x number of years. Someone has to pay for some work force to install, repair and replace the poles, cables, anchor guys, etc. Not just for the phone lines but for cable tv and power.

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: Verizon strike

      Originally posted by lreops View Post
      Ha Ha, I think I've found the hidden clue that will clear all of this up.

      Ya ready

      Within this sentence is the answer;

      Ready

      Read carefully

      Verizon is seeking to freeze pensions, tie pay more closely to performance and to require workers to contribute at least $100 per month to their health-care plans.

      Did you see it

      It's right there, in black and white

      "tie (to) pay more closely to performance and require workers to contribute at lease $100.00 a month ($25.00 a week) to their health-care planes"

      How many watching this thread would do almost anything to be able to have health care of at LEASE $25.00 a week????

      And how many of you believe that you can keep your job if your performance is less than your counter parts???

      This is why these unions guys get so defensive when you start questioning them about this sort of thing.

      I've never worked in or for an union. WHY?? Because I am capable of speaking up for MYSELF. I am capable of negotiating for MYSELF. And if I fail to come to an agreement, I moved on. Never hurt me , not one little bit. In fact, each new opportunity proved to be better then the previous one.

      And best of all.........I have pride that I worked hard and honest to advance my lifestyle to one that I am well pleased with and not have to work along side a $hit head that was an under performer making the same wage as me.

      I think its called "Work Ethics"...which I've yet to meet a die hard union person had, or even knew what the term meant.

      That's my 2ยข.....Take it or leave it!

      Ron


      Ron, that's what your take on this is worth 2 cents. Do you think elves install telephone poles and place cables above and below ground? I worked hard, worked with pride and worked with ethics. You missed a few good personality traits, compassion, respect, manners. You should be ashamed for the way you speak, I'm ashamed for you. Frank

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: Verizon strike

        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
        When I started at the phone co 40 years ago the oldest cables were 3" in diameter lead sheathed over heavy copper 900 pairs. Fifteen years later same diameter cable pvc over thinner copper 3600 pairs. Just a few years later 1/2 diameter fiber optic cable could take the place of countless copper cables only limited by the technology at either end. The cost and complexity of distributing those lines at the termination point is not cheap. I can't imagine where it's all headed? Total wireless dependence is risky. Underground lines are better protected than overhead but it takes a huge workforce to maintain the sytem that's in place. Nature is constantly beating up the system, it's not the kind of thing that gets installed and works fine for x number of years. Someone has to pay for some work force to install, repair and replace the poles, cables, anchor guys, etc. Not just for the phone lines but for cable tv and power.
        Exactly. More information is being moved over less or smaller? hardware. The balancing point is whether the information demand stays up enough that the more efficient transferring hardware has to be maintained/installed in the future by the same or larger workforce. If not, then it seems doomed.


        J.C.

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Verizon strike

          Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
          Do you guys truely understand what you are debating.There are parts of this country that are forever changed.

          I have guys that I have worked with in the trades for 20+ years calling me to dig ditches or ask me to vouch for extended unemployment cause they have no more coming to them.They are never going back out in the const. field,you know who has it locked.Capatalism..Realistic wage..Whatever the EFF you want to call it,millions are displaced and millions more are coming up the ladder to get YOU if your not already booted.

          The economic failure,Border Tsunami and untethered international trade has removed a promise of the american dream for millions of blue collar citizens.If you think you and your kids can stay in front of it you are a fool.A college grad fool.The malignant disease is spreading throughout,it don't stop under you.
          The country's people have to somehow coordinate to remove Politicians/Unions as they are in full.It is obvious they are out of control at the top.

          There are some members that get very close to understanding the political intricacies in full.Then they realize it is unimaginable that there will ever be a change.
          More and more people are going to get hurt.Can't the people see the instability.Or is it day in day out,grab as much as you can while the black storm builds energy right out on the edge of town.

          This S*** is real and I ain't got no answer.
          You are one of the few folks here honest and smart enough to understand how bad and far reaching this all is. You are probably a very hard working and successful man, but smat enough to see beyond your own situation. Tunnel vision is gonna bite us in the butt. I never felt at ease as other Americans were losing jobs, homes, hope!

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Verizon strike

            Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
            Exactly. More information is being moved over less or smaller? hardware. The balancing point is whether the information demand stays up enough that the more efficient transferring hardware has to be maintained/installed in the future by the same or larger workforce. If not, then it seems doomed.


            J.C.
            The technology necessary to make all the outside plant (poles, cables, etc) obsolete is still not here. I'm more concerned about the sustainability of our economy, standard of living, country. All this is really a nonissue, we have an economy on the brink and no hardworking politicians with the ethics to do what needs to be done. whatever the heck that is?

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Verizon strike

              Frank is correct in that the outside plant is still required. However, it's changing. You don't have thousands of pairs on a massive distribution frame at the Central Office in the newer FTTx deployments (ie FIOS for VZ, UVerse for AT&T). You have more numerous remote nodes that are closer to the home. From these nodes, it's all fiber back to the datacenter. These new nodes are smaller and easier to maintain. You still need the "last mile" to the home or apartment. The demand for data though is going through the roof. The good news is that the fiber part of the network has almost limitless capacity. Once the fiber is blown, you're good until some fool with a backhoe puts a hole in it. Fortunately, this is rare. Some of the wireless technology that's coming has the promise of eliminating the last mile, so there'll be no need for all the outside plant eventually.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Verizon strike

                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                The technology necessary to make all the outside plant (poles, cables, etc) obsolete is still not here. I'm more concerned about the sustainability of our economy, standard of living, country. All this is really a nonissue, we have an economy on the brink and no hardworking politicians with the ethics to do what needs to be done. whatever the heck that is?
                I'm pretty much a positive thinking person. The "sky is falling" people usually never accomplish anything by only recognizing problems and not finding ways around those problems. I don't want to be that way.

                With that said, we were talking about the Housing Bubble 7+ years ago while sitting on the floor leaning against studs of rough-ins eating lunch. And how that would be the beginning of the next Great Depression. (We didn't call it The Great Recession. Didn't think to use that sugar-coated-politically-correct term.) That industry was one of the last where a good portion of the product was domestically made and consumed.

                Now this positive person is looking for interest rates higher than the Carter administration in then next 2 to 3 years and unemployment to increase yearly.

                It is a perfect storm of financial doom.

                Low GDP.
                Lower birth rate.
                Lower marriage rate.
                Baby boomers getting to an age where they use the highest percentage of finances of current systems while living longer than the model projected in its creation.
                Less people to pay for this=Higher taxes on the SMALLER number of people.
                Higher unemployment due to no GDP.
                And healthcare costs with no apparent way to be decreased or even just stay with standard inflation.

                I want to see it another way, but can't currently. It's no where close to bad yet. When and if it gets there, that's when you'll see that s!#$ like you see on one of those World News casts where 1,000's of people are in some square ready to drag their politicians through the streets.

                Part of ever repeating history since the beginning of man. Happen again when we're all gone.


                J.C.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Verizon strike

                  Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                  I'm pretty much a positive thinking person. The "sky is falling" people usually never accomplish anything by only recognizing problems and not finding ways around those problems. I don't want to be that way.

                  With that said, we were talking about the Housing Bubble 7+ years ago while sitting on the floor leaning against studs of rough-ins eating lunch. And how that would be the beginning of the next Great Depression. (We didn't call it The Great Recession. Didn't think to use that sugar-coated-politically-correct term.) That industry was one of the last where a good portion of the product was domestically made and consumed.

                  Now this positive person is looking for interest rates higher than the Carter administration in then next 2 to 3 years and unemployment to increase yearly.

                  It is a perfect storm of financial doom.

                  Low GDP.
                  Lower birth rate.
                  Lower marriage rate.
                  Baby boomers getting to an age where they use the highest percentage of finances of current systems while living longer than the model projected in its creation.
                  Less people to pay for this=Higher taxes on the SMALLER number of people.
                  Higher unemployment due to no GDP.
                  And healthcare costs with no apparent way to be decreased or even just stay with standard inflation.

                  I want to see it another way, but can't currently. It's no where close to bad yet. When and if it gets there, that's when you'll see that s!#$ like you see on one of those World News casts where 1,000's of people are in some square ready to drag their politicians through the streets.

                  Part of ever repeating history since the beginning of man. Happen again when we're all gone.


                  J.C.
                  We've joked on this Forum about doom and gloom, but it's getting serious. I keep hoping our legislators will step up, but to my amazement nothing! I was talking to some neighbors today about current events and they fear the unrest in London comming here someday. They say watch what happens when the entitlements get cut, when they younger unemployed stop getting their government checks. I guess it could get pretty bad?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Verizon strike

                    Right now Philadelphia has a problem with Flash Mobs. I passionately hate the Philly Mayor's political philosophy, but the Mayor IS taking a "no-nonsense" approach to the rising problem.

                    The other day a white male was riding his bike on Kelly drive. For those that don't know what that is, it's a 4 mile road that goes right into the city for bikers,runners..etc.

                    Well while riding his bike, 2 males came from nowhere and sucker punched him with brass knuckles. The man's skull was cracked..but he's alive.

                    These flash mobs are beating people...it won't be long till a lawful gun owner draws his weapon in self defense in our city.

                    What's happening here in our city, is very similar to what happened in London.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: Verizon strike

                      An interesting development. Some of the union bozos have been sabotaging VZ plant. Unfortunately, however, this caused a hospital and a police station to lose telephone service. On the positive side, the FBI are now investigating. To quote the Dinosaur BBQ (a NY state thing), "WDFA".

                      FBI probing 'sabatoge' at Verizon facilities following workers' strike

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Verizon strike

                        Originally posted by Roadster280 View Post
                        An interesting development. Some of the union bozos have been sabotaging VZ plant. Unfortunately, however, this caused a hospital and a police station to lose telephone service. On the positive side, the FBI are now investigating. To quote the Dinosaur BBQ (a NY state thing), "WDFA".

                        FBI probing 'sabatoge' at Verizon facilities following workers' strike
                        Cue Frank in 3-2-1...

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Verizon strike

                          Originally posted by Roadster280 View Post
                          An interesting development. Some of the union bozos have been sabotaging VZ plant. Unfortunately, however, this caused a hospital and a police station to lose telephone service. On the positive side, the FBI are now investigating. To quote the Dinosaur BBQ (a NY state thing), "WDFA".

                          FBI probing 'sabatoge' at Verizon facilities following workers' strike
                          This can be some VERY bad JuJu if proven and the perpetrator caught. Think of someone, or multiple people, dying as a result of this. Ever heard of the Felony Murder Rule?


                          J.C.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: Verizon strike

                            J.C. unfortunately this sort of thing happens and while I can explain it that does not excuse the behavior. A interesting fact related to this is that fewer troubles are reported during a strike because there are no workers disturbing the various systems. For example aerial terminals can look like a rat's nest of wires and when these wires are moved during a installation all sorts of problems occur.

                            If you are serious about prosecuting those responsible for putting the public at risk, you have to consider the actions of the company that purposely forced the strike in the first place. Even if there was no sabotage, the public is still at risk of service interruptions. Verizon cannot possibly expect workers to agree to such outrageous demands, there are no excuses. I know folks here do not agree with that thinking but that's how it has been and will be in my opinion. Frank

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: Verizon strike

                              Originally posted by Flux View Post
                              Cue Frank in 3-2-1...
                              To be honest, I don't expect any pro-union response on this. It seems to me that when "inconvenient" issues are presented to union types, they either avoid the subject, or change the subject. For example, the wireline businesses of all the Regional Bell Operating Companies (RBOCs) are hemorrhaging money. The specific part of VZ that the union represents is on a downhill slide. Yes, it generates a $hitload of revenue, but its costs are enormous. Chief amongst that is labor cost. So VZ as a whole makes money. That is not relevant to the wireline side of the business, yet the union will point to the money that VZ as a whole makes.

                              I'm damned sure that if a profitable business, say Exxon, went into a business that didn't make money, it would be cost-reduced, and finally closed if that didn't work. Irrespective of the billions that Exxon makes. An argument might be that VZ built itself on phones, and should respect its history. Fine sentiment, but that don't pay the bills. Take IBM. They INVENTED the personal computer. They made money for 20-25 years, then sold the business to China, because they were losing money on it. Now they make billions consulting on PCs, but don't fight down in the weeds with the Chinese over 10 cents here or there on a component.

                              None of this has anything to do with disrespect to the American worker, it's just simple math. And the math isn't adding up.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: Verizon strike

                                Originally posted by Roadster280 View Post
                                To be honest, I don't expect any pro-union response on this. It seems to me that when "inconvenient" issues are presented to union types, they either avoid the subject, or change the subject. For example, the wireline businesses of all the Regional Bell Operating Companies (RBOCs) are hemorrhaging money. The specific part of VZ that the union represents is on a downhill slide. Yes, it generates a $hitload of revenue, but its costs are enormous. Chief amongst that is labor cost. So VZ as a whole makes money. That is not relevant to the wireline side of the business, yet the union will point to the money that VZ as a whole makes.

                                I'm damned sure that if a profitable business, say Exxon, went into a business that didn't make money, it would be cost-reduced, and finally closed if that didn't work. Irrespective of the billions that Exxon makes. An argument might be that VZ built itself on phones, and should respect its history. Fine sentiment, but that don't pay the bills. Take IBM. They INVENTED the personal computer. They made money for 20-25 years, then sold the business to China, because they were losing money on it. Now they make billions consulting on PCs, but don't fight down in the weeds with the Chinese over 10 cents here or there on a component.

                                None of this has anything to do with disrespect to the American worker, it's just simple math. And the math isn't adding up.
                                I responded to J.C.'s post. Union members who break the law and commit sabotage are criminals. Corporations that purposely force a strike and put the public at risk are also criminals in my opinion. Verizon is one corporation and it is very profitable.

                                I do agree that the math does not add up regarding a lot of things going on in our country. Explain to me how our economy can possibly turn around when we don't make what we consume? That does not addup in my opinion. You can admire communist china for keeping their labor force from organizing and growing strong, but you can't keep losing American consumer dollars and save our economy. You also can't keep borrowing from other countries to fight your wars, or support a illegal subculture. Check the math on all these things, it does not add up and never will.

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