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  • #31
    Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

    [QUOTE=tailgunner;354946]The government paying for health insurance for a working class family is deemed socialism / communism, and "Unamerican".

    The short answer is "No", the government does not help pay for private health insurance.[/QUOTE

    Here in Australia everyone pays 1.5% of their income to a government run Medicare which is a safty net for the poor and rich and you are placed on a waiting list for major operations and everyone earning over $80,000.00 has to have private health insurance which costs around $1800.00 per year for a single person or face a higher tax penality others take out private health insurance to get their operations down straight away without having to wait you only have to wait twelve months after joining to have any pre aliaments to be attended to medical subscriptions from a chemist are also subsidised by medicare so what is wrong with that it helps everyone and if in your mind it is socialism communism and whateverism them that lot of you are mad if you would rather spend your monies in every other country other than your own then do it but don`t complain when there is nothing let for your own citizens.

    Tony

    Tony

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

      Originally posted by AFM View Post
      I don`t seem to understand are you saying that you are paying $1800.00 per month which works out to be $21,600.00 per year for health insurance for two people and is that private health insurance alone does the government pay for anything.

      Tony
      I was paying $1,500 but it was being increased to $1,800 cover the first Obamacare additions. I changed my deductibles and co-pays to bring it down to $1,100. The government only pays for those who have no coverage.

      Mark
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

        Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
        I was paying $1,500 but it was being increased to $1,800 cover the first Obamacare additions. I changed my deductibles and co-pays to bring it down to $1,100. The government only pays for those who have no coverage.

        Mark
        Not in all cases. I know a few that have no coverage and they get no medicaid. They end up filing bankruptcy instead of paying their medical bills.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

          [QUOTE=AFM;354953]
          Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
          The government paying for health insurance for a working class family is deemed socialism / communism, and "Unamerican".

          The short answer is "No", the government does not help pay for private health insurance.[/QUOTE

          Here in Australia everyone pays 1.5% of their income to a government run Medicare which is a safty net for the poor and rich and you are placed on a waiting list for major operations and everyone earning over $80,000.00 has to have private health insurance which costs around $1800.00 per year for a single person or face a higher tax penality others take out private health insurance to get their operations down straight away without having to wait you only have to wait twelve months after joining to have any pre aliaments to be attended to medical subscriptions from a chemist are also subsidised by medicare so what is wrong with that it helps everyone and if in your mind it is socialism communism and whateverism them that lot of you are mad if you would rather spend your monies in every other country other than your own then do it but don`t complain when there is nothing let for your own citizens.

          Tony

          Tony
          It's a big macho thing, the pioneer spirit, in the US. Some want to go it alone, no government programs for any reason. Oh, unless it's for a bloated military. Then it's fine and dandy. Corporate welfare is okay, because they create all the jobs, in China!

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

            Originally posted by James P View Post
            Not in all cases. I know a few that have no coverage and they get no medicaid. They end up filing bankruptcy instead of paying their medical bills.
            So when does the Government pay for those who already have coverage?

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
              So when does the Government pay for those who already have coverage?

              Mark
              For what? Ins coverage

              THe government hasn't paid any of my healthcare costs. Maybe indirectly, vacinations, TB tests, etc.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

                Originally posted by James P View Post
                Not in all cases. I know a few that have no coverage and they get no medicaid. They end up filing bankruptcy instead of paying their medical bills.
                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                So when does the Government pay for those who already have coverage?

                Mark
                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                I was paying $1,500 but it was being increased to $1,800 cover the first Obamacare additions. I changed my deductibles and co-pays to bring it down to $1,100. The government only pays for those who have no coverage.

                Mark
                Originally posted by James P View Post
                For what? Ins coverage

                THe government hasn't paid any of my healthcare costs. Maybe indirectly, vacinations, TB tests, etc.
                ?????-Perhaps I misunderstood your statement.

                Mark

                Wow they posted out of order but you should be able to look at the original order.
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

                  I sometimes think hospitals need a separate building beside the ER only accepting non-insured people. A "cash" ER if you will. (Probably off subject)


                  J.C.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

                    [QUOTE=James P;354960]
                    Originally posted by AFM View Post

                    It's a big macho thing, the pioneer spirit, in the US. Some want to go it alone, no government programs for any reason. Oh, unless it's for a bloated military. Then it's fine and dandy. Corporate welfare is okay, because they create all the jobs, in China!
                    Yes I never did follow that logic. I can understand in some ways people's reluctance with government programs - bureaucracy, inefficiency etc. But in the case of healthcare the alternative is getting financially screwed while the people in the healthcare system make big bucks.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

                      Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                      I was paying $1,500 but it was being increased to $1,800 cover the first Obamacare additions. I changed my deductibles and co-pays to bring it down to $1,100. The government only pays for those who have no coverage.

                      Mark
                      I never heard of the govt paying people's insurance or medical bills. Can you explain how this works?

                      Since I have been consulting for the last few years I also have my own insurance and definitely the cost has jumped since the Obamacare. That's the problem with the Obamacare and the insurance companies - they have just passed on the cost of Obamacare to the consumers with existing health insurance. Companies are not immune to this either - I know people with company insurance where their premiums have seen a big jump.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

                        I'm all for the "individual mandate" being unconsitutional, because it is unconstitutional. The Constitution doesn't grant Gov't the power to mandate that the people have to purchase anything. Auto liability insurance is similarly shady, but offers a considerably stronger argument - namely that driving is a priveledge not a right, and maintaining financial responsibility is a condition that one must meet to enjoy the priveledge.

                        The health insurance industry is a great example of an industry that has grown into a monster, even before Obamacare, via its lobbying strength. Insurance isn't the solution to out-of-reach healthcare costs, it is the cause of those costs. The insurance industry, despite their noise, has no interest in controlling healthcare costs. As costs increase, their total revenue increases. Even if premiums remain at a constant percentage of cost, healthcare cost growth fattens the bank accounts of the insurance industry. Back in the 40s and 50s, insurance wasn't nearly as prevalent nor all-encompassing as it is today. Many people paid all their own health care costs. Medical costs were never cheap, but they weren't out of control like they are today. The increase in costs that have occurred since insurance has taken over healthcare is not a coincidence. First, it is important to understand that the insurance industry isn't really about healthcare, it is a parasite that rides on the back of the healthcare industry. As the prevalence and acceptance of insurance as a given in society has increased, insurance has become a huge burden and large part of the total cost of healthcare. Fact is, for the most part, the insurance industry doesn't provide patient care. In terms of ocntrolling costs, insurance distorts the free market, creating higher overall costs. Companies such as Kaiser are not healthcare companies, they are insurance companies that own the means of providing healthcare, thereby increasing their control but further limiting competition.

                        Insurance is a redistribution of income scheme, just like a Gov't social program. This is especially clear when considering comprehensive insurance programs. On the whole, these systems are essentially socialized healthcare, except that instead of paying tax to a Gov't, we pay premiums to an insurance company. The total cost of healthcare is simply spread out over the entire pool of insured, with a healthy adder for the insurance companies' expenses and profit. Total costs aren't reduced, just spread out. The insurance company, being private, enforces limitations on the service they provide such as denial of coverage, cancellations, and pre-existing condition coverage restrictions to further maximize their profit. Clearly, the insurance industry would strongly prefer for all medical care to be insured. This justifies the largest possible premiums for them. Moreover, expensive healthcare at all levels strengthens their position. If the average person can't afford current inflated health insurance premiums, his (pre-Obamacare) solution is either to do without and accept huge risk, or buy insurance. Neither is a very good option. Obamacare was written by the health insurance industry, hence the individual mandate, which takes away the option of the individual to simply do without and take the risk. This means, in essence, more money for health insurers.

                        Insurance causes the cost of healthcare to increase substantially. First, the motivation is to increase, not decrease, costs since the spiralling cost of healthcare justifies the very existence of insurance. Second, the parasitic costs of supporting the insurance company increase costs. And thirdly, insurance results in limited competition in healthcare, since all insurance billing is generally done to fixed, pre-negotiated rates or, as in the case of Kaiser and that ilk, the insurance company actually owns the healthcare provider. There is currently a war being waged between insurance and the drug companies over pharma costs, and we the healthcare consumers are the big losers.

                        As I see it, all the debate about healthcare reform misses the boat completely because it assumes that the solution is necessarily comprehensive health insurance. That's not the solution, it's the problem. For insurance of any type to actually be insurance rather than simply a tax and redistribution of costs over society, it can't cover the totality of healthcare. Comprehensive insurance is not really insurance, it's merely a scheme for spreading costs and putting a great deal of money in the pocket of insurance companies. What makes sense is for the vast majority of healthcare issues and maintenance to be borne by the consumer. Insurance should be limited to coverage for those health issues that unavoidably create major expense. In other words, insurance should be - by LAW - "Major Medical" only, with no exclusions for pre-exisiting conditions, no cancellations, a uniform service guarantee, and limited control of health care decisions by the insurance company. Insurance companies should be disallowed from owning or controlling healthcare providers period (i.e., no Kaiser or Humana). And there should be a fixed deductible for all such "major medical" insurance policies. This has several advantages. First, it would restore competition as the price-setting force for most health care services such as well-child care, normal checkups, illnesses, broken bones, and other day to day sorts of issues. Second, it would eliminate the parasitic costs of insurance on such classes of healthcare. Both these effects would lower costs substantially. A broken arm in the current system costs about $20k. Ever really looked at what it really takes to treat a broken arm? It isn't much. We have the insurance industry to thank for the $20k cost. The third effect is that isuch as system would encourage cost competition on the part of insurers AND health care providers for covered (major) conditions. And, fourth, it wold eliminate a good bit of fraud and overuse of medical care. We all know people that rush their kids to the doctor every time they get a cold, because after all, it's covered by insurance. Well, the insurance doesn't pay for anything... you and I pay for it, through higher costs and higher premiums.

                        This is the sort of healthcare reform that would sharply reduce insurance company parasitic costs and restore competition to the healthcare industry, making it affordable. At the same time, it would eliminate unfair issues such as pre-existing condition denials of coverage, etc. It puts consumers and the healthcare industry (not the insurance companies) in charge of healthcare (again), and makes individuals much more responsible for their own health care by not allowing all costs to be spread out over society in an essentially socialist manner.

                        It all comes down to the fact that many people really want a Gov't that will take care of them. Generally, certain demographics benefit more from social programs and redistribution of income schemes than others. This demographic represent a large block of votes. It's the same group that pays no income tax, and gets the Earned Income Credit, supports unemployment extensions, welfare, etc... which others pay for. It's the same group that buys homes they can't afford and thus supports Government manipulation of interest rates. And it's the same group that wants us all to believe that everyone "deserves" healthcare. That's a wonderful warm and fuzzy notion, but to me it makes no sense. Diet is important to healthcare, so are we soon going to mandate that everyone has a right to the highest quality foods in the same quantities per person? And, since the sword cuts both ways, are we going to mandate that people all punch a timecard at the gym every day and put in their 30 minutes of cardio? Some occupations clearly create more health risks than others, so are we going to ban those? Where does it all stop? Sorry, the further we let "others" (insurance industry OR Gov't) take control, the less sense this will make. Healthcare reform really needs to go the other way... minimize Gov't, minimize insurance to the smallest level that makes sense, and return control of healthcare to the consumers and to the doctors.
                        Last edited by Andy_M; 08-15-2011, 01:11 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

                          Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                          I never heard of the govt paying people's insurance or medical bills. Can you explain how this works?

                          Since I have been consulting for the last few years I also have my own insurance and definitely the cost has jumped since the Obamacare. That's the problem with the Obamacare and the insurance companies - they have just passed on the cost of Obamacare to the consumers with existing health insurance. Companies are not immune to this either - I know people with company insurance where their premiums have seen a big jump.

                          Sure, it's called Welfare.

                          Mark
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

                            I'll be interested to see if Elena Kagan recuses herself from any cases towards Obama Care since she was consulted to help craft the legal defense of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care act which is commonly known as Obama Care.

                            So far Kagan has recused herself 28 out of 76 times so far while serving on the Supreme Court, but Obamacare will be the biggie.

                            The pieces are starting to come together why Obama appointed her in the first place. Obama Care was in the works long before the debate, and we as a country set Obama up with a super majority to make it extremely easy for him to do so.

                            The only thing I'm worried about while Obama is in office, is losing one of the conservative judges...and not because of natural causes.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

                              Originally posted by Flux View Post
                              I'll be interested to see if Elena Kagan recuses herself from any cases towards Obama Care since she was consulted to help craft the legal defense of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care act which is commonly known as Obama Care.

                              So far Kagan has recused herself 28 out of 76 times so far while serving on the Supreme Court, but Obamacare will be the biggie.

                              The pieces are starting to come together why Obama appointed her in the first place. Obama Care was in the works long before the debate, and we as a country set Obama up with a super majority to make it extremely easy for him to do so.

                              The only thing I'm worried about while Obama is in office, is losing one of the conservative judges...and not because of natural causes.
                              Why? Are you planning something?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: HealthCare Law Unconstitutional

                                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                                I was paying $1,500 but it was being increased to $1,800 cover the first Obamacare additions. I changed my deductibles and co-pays to bring it down to $1,100. The government only pays for those who have no coverage.

                                Mark
                                So if I have it right you are paying $1,100.00 per month not $1,100.00 per year which equals $13,200.00 per year and if I am still right you are paying what Rupud Murdock would pay in Australia and get not one private room but two or three at that cost.
                                Lets get this right as well Australia has around 22millions people and has an affordable Medicare system that everyone contributes 1.5% of their income to and private health cover if one wants it but the US with around 300million people carn`t afford it because it smacks of socialism wasn`t it FDR that set up a pension system in the 1930`s for Americians wasn`t that socialism???

                                Tony

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