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  • #16
    Re: Why No Invasion?

    Originally posted by Flux View Post
    Comparing Pearl Harbor to today's war of Iraq is comparing apples to oranges. We didn't have 3/4 of the technology back then, as we do today.

    You took the story out of context, as they were implying boots on the ground in America would of been devastating to the Japs, and they are correct.

    If another country invaded us, and put boots on the ground, they would be in serious trouble, as more people than you think are heavily armed.

    Try coming to a gun show in Pennsylvania, as seeing all the freaks that go...it will make the hair on the back of your neck stand-up. I don't know where these people come from, but these people are hard-core.
    Arkansas has had it's share of hardcore.

    Tim McVeigh, Gordon Kahl, and group called the Covenant, Sword and Arm of the Lord. I once saw Randy Weaver at a gun show. We have more than our fair share of Militia types here.

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    • #17
      Re: Why No Invasion?

      Originally posted by BadgerDave View Post
      Unless all those weapons and their owners could be pulled together in some form of organized trained militia they would never be able to stop combat ready troops. Slow them down a bit, probably, but defeat them, never. I also don't believe an American 2 million man army and war ships were fighting any Germans on Dec. 7, 1941.
      You are actually quite wrong. And this kind of thinking is why you are wrong. A small force of highly organized individuals will make a large force look like idiots. Case in point, Afghanistan.

      Heck look at the havoc a good sniper can cause. One man, can make hundreds fear for their lives. Research Carlos Hathcock.

      Espescially in someones own backyard, research Vietnam.

      And what more training does a hunter, in his own hunting grounds need? How big is a Seal team? Ranger team and all the other special forces? And how effective are they?

      Smaller is better.

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      • #18
        Re: Why No Invasion?

        I wish my son Jaysen could reply to some of this but he is still in Afghanistan. He is a history buff and his Masters was in Military Arts and Science. What the Japanese did when they attacked Pearl Harbor was to wake up a divided US which was not sure if they wanted to get involved. Prior to the attack the military had 120,000 members. After the attack a united US went full force into the war. By the end of the WWII the military including reservists totaled 16,000,000. Attacking a single territory in the middle of the Pacific Ocean was simple compared to what it would have taken to attack the US Mainland.

        Mark
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Why No Invasion?

          Originally posted by James P View Post
          Arkansas has had it's share of hardcore.

          Tim McVeigh, Gordon Kahl, and group called the Covenant, Sword and Arm of the Lord. I once saw Randy Weaver at a gun show. We have more than our fair share of Militia types here.
          Barrett 50 cal. go flying out the door at our shows....a little pricey for my wallet.

          I know we have Militia here, but no where near the guest star power as your state.

          If I'm correct, Pennsylvania is ranked #1 in granting hunting licenses, with Texas #2.

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          • #20
            Re: Why No Invasion?

            When civilians are up against well trained army then I am sorry they wouldn`t have a pray no matter what arms they have and as others have said the US only had advisers in Europe right up to 7th of the December 1941.
            The subject should be how did the Japs pull this off without the US knowing they were coming or was it the only way for the US to get into WW11 and allowed the bombing to take place.
            But for whatever reason I am eternally gratful the US navy was there at Midway and the battle of the Coral Sea for without your navy laying done their lives Australia and the US world have been stuffed

            Tony
            Last edited by AFM; 10-09-2011, 01:56 AM.

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            • #21
              Re: Why No Invasion?

              Originally posted by James P View Post
              Did the US have troops in Europe when Japan invaded?

              I thought we declared war with Japan before Germany.

              I seriously doubt a group of deer hunters would deter an invading army. Look at Iraq, they were heavily armed when we invaded. It didn't deter Bush/Cheney.

              I think someone is having a Red Dawn moment.
              Look at the colonies in the 1700s. there was no standing army but we took on the British and in the end we won.
              Their troop movements and supply lines were harassed by locals who were no more than 'deer hunters' if you
              want to call them that. Weapons and tactics have of course changed and the analogy to Red Dawn is a good one.
              It doesn't seem likely that US soil would be invaded but it could happen. An armed citizenry may not be a deterrent
              to an invasion but it will give them pains once they get here you can bet on that.
              ---------------
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              • #22
                Re: Why No Invasion?

                Best kind of war is one where they simply buy us out, destroying our economy, corrupting our politicians, industrialists, bankers, and moreover forcing us into ad conscious-less society thanks thinks in terms of greed. Great country's generally do not fall from external enemies, they fall from within.
                Hey, wait hasn't that war been going on for years now? And most are unwilling to acknowledge it.
                ---------------
                Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                ---------------
                “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                ---------
                "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                ---------
                sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

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                • #23
                  Re: Why No Invasion?

                  Originally posted by wookie View Post
                  I believe we would have given the Japs a good fight back in ww2 on our turf. Thank God for our military we didn't have to find out.
                  With todays weapons no way. As CWS pointed out our enemies foreign and domestic can and are taking us down internaly. Haven't given up hope, I believe the same power that helped form this GREAT country can save it if the people wise up.

                  wookie
                  That's a huge IF unfortunately.
                  ---------------
                  Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                  ---------------
                  “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                  ---------
                  "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                  ---------
                  sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Why No Invasion?

                    the logistics of supplying that army would have been a great under taking,, look what it took for us to go the other directions, and we had bases up to there door step in the end, in Europe we had Britain to work from,

                    look how long it took to get ready for either one of the gulf wars, I think we shipped things for a year before we were ready,

                    Japan even if they would have invaded Hawaii it would have made a poor staging area from which to work, and even at that ships are a bomb-able target, and we would have the ability to use air power even with out a navy of much when they were with in 100 miles or so of the main land, and even if they would have got ashore, even they got US at 50 to 1 there was still a lot more of use than them,

                    look at how many men it takes to control an insurgency, we should know by now as that is what we have fought for the last number of wars, it takes a lot of boots to control a few, and if the few know the area that makes it that much harder,
                    one other factor civilians may not be a trained army, but there is a lot of veterans that I think could help organize a working resistance,
                    Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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                    attributed to Samuel Johnson
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                    • #25
                      Re: Why No Invasion?

                      Originally posted by BHD View Post
                      the logistics of supplying that army would have been a great under taking,, look what it took for us to go the other directions, and we had bases up to there door step in the end, in Europe we had Britain to work from,

                      look how long it took to get ready for either one of the gulf wars, I think we shipped things for a year before we were ready,

                      Japan even if they would have invaded Hawaii it would have made a poor staging area from which to work, and even at that ships are a bomb-able target, and we would have the ability to use air power even with out a navy of much when they were with in 100 miles or so of the main land, and even if they would have got ashore, even they got US at 50 to 1 there was still a lot more of use than them,

                      look at how many men it takes to control an insurgency, we should know by now as that is what we have fought for the last number of wars, it takes a lot of boots to control a few, and if the few know the area that makes it that much harder,
                      one other factor civilians may not be a trained army, but there is a lot of veterans that I think could help organize a working resistance,
                      The only thing I would point out regarding insurgents would be our current rules of engagement in Iraq & Afghanistan. If our troops were actually allowed to do their jobs, the insurgents would be easily defeated.

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Why No Invasion?

                        Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                        The only thing I would point out regarding insurgents would be our current rules of engagement in Iraq & Afghanistan. If our troops were actually allowed to do their jobs, the insurgents would be easily defeated.

                        Mark
                        Mark, if politicians got out of the way, we could of went through Iraq & Afghanistan on a Sunday afternoon, and been home by dinner time.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Why No Invasion?

                          I don't think so! Look at the Russians and their invasion of Afganistan. Their tactics were quite cruel and they certainly did not have the so-called political restrictions that we have. They made little to no headway and in fact their tactics and cruelty spawned far more insurgents, and perhaps the basics of insurgency that the U.S. now faces.

                          Counter-insurgency requires very careful operations, and the "hearts and minds" of the populace is critical to success in most all areas. Unless an enemy's objective is to destroy the entire population, insurgency will occur; and in the case of Afganistan and Iraq, we have a tribal history of independance and religious binding. You go in and receive fire from a building, you destroy the building... and if you get the enemy in that target then good. But you then face the ire of the farmer who owns that building. He generally doesn't "see" the "enemy" as you do. What he see's is that you are the invader and you are the one who destroyed his property. He becomes much more understanding of his brethren and much more opposed to you. Education and diplomacy is extremely important to gain the trust of the populace. Without their support, a counterinsurgency force can be mired down for a very, very long time.

                          Our invasion tactics of Iraq was somewhat questionable almost from the start. "Shock and Awe" while impressive to see on TV, wasn't necessarily a "killer" of spirit to the Iraqi's. Bombardment generally rallies a people to unite in spirit. That was the case in the bombing of London, the bombing of Tokyo, and the bombing of Berlin. It, to a very large extent is proven to be counter-productive in all but the most devastating attacks... Nuclear!

                          Secondly, and perhaps most important, was that the logistics of the Iraq invasion was quite dangerous. Stretching our supply lines out several hundred miles was a bold, and to some degree foolish move. Our forward force ran very low on fuel and water at times and had to halt to wait for supply to reach them. Our rush left behind tons of unguarded munitions that were then "evaporated" into the populace and would later come back to us as IED's. We did have the advantage in that our previous engagement in the "Gulf War" had so frightened the Iraqi army, that they were unable to rally and strike at the middle of our extended supply lines. (That was assured by our ability to take out major command and control systems, which left tacticial decisions to Iraqi field commands.) Had an Iraqi field command had the confidence to make such a decision, the U.S invasion force would have had a much more difficult time. Thankfully, our vulnerabilities in this show were not explored with any significant force.

                          Such challenges would, of course, face any invasion force on the American continent, only a hundred fold. But I'm not sure that an enemy would exercise their military with the same humanity that concerns our forces. That would especially be true if the invader was a completely different race, with completely different customs and values. Again, the key would be the ability for our population to overcome its differences and its "me and mine" mentality.

                          But of course, the question of the topic is not "today" or the "future"; but was directed at 1940's America and why didn't the Japanese invade? 1940's America, was not nearly as populated, well-traveled, or as well armed... at least individually. Typically, a few families might have hunting rifles, shotguns, and maybe a 38' revolver for home protection. Yes there were other weapons, but only a small fraction of what is now in the population.

                          However, 1940's America was a much more united and moral country than it is now. Certainly not "lily white" by any means, but still a country of largely common purpose. Hindrance to an "enemy", especially Japan was a matter of logistical support. Japan, even on the eve of December 7, 1941 knew that it's only chance was to negotiate with the United States, who at the time was the most powerful "free-world" country on the planet. Because of "war-reparations" the U.S. held most of the gold on the planet, had the largest industrial base, and was still technologically out of the limit of any kind of damaging strike force. In 1941, North America was still a "fortress" well out of strike range of any serious force. At best, espionage and sabotage was about the only means of striking continental America.

                          But, essential to Japan, was that it's war preparation and supply was extremely time limited. With little to no natural resources, it had a limited supply of munitions, ships, and aircraft that it could not readily or quickly replace. Therefore it's venture would time out in a rather short period of time. To venture further into the western hemispere would have been even more suicidal than the journey on which it embarked on December 7th.

                          CWS

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                          • #28
                            Re: Why No Invasion?

                            Protesters tried to swarm the National Air & Space Museum with signs and banners. When a security guard stopped them he was over powered and held. A second guard showed up and pepper sprayed the group. After watching the protesters laying on the ground screaming "medic", all I could think of was thank goodness the protesters are not charged with our protection.

                            Mark started a thread with that.

                            Notice the 1 man took down a whole group with a can of pepper spray?

                            Now how about that big army argument.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Why No Invasion?

                              Originally posted by stolen View Post
                              Protesters tried to swarm the National Air & Space Museum with signs and banners. When a security guard stopped them he was over powered and held. A second guard showed up and pepper sprayed the group. After watching the protesters laying on the ground screaming "medic", all I could think of was thank goodness the protesters are not charged with our protection.

                              Mark started a thread with that.

                              Notice the 1 man took down a whole group with a can of pepper spray?

                              Now how about that big army argument.
                              You really need to quit smoking that stuff so early in the morning.
                              Teach your kids about taxes..........eat 30 percent of their ice cream.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Why No Invasion?

                                In today's World any military attack against the US mainland would likely be from a missile fired from a great distance away. If I had my druthers, that is how we would have fought in both Iraq and Afghanistan. There would be more collateral damage but the cost in time, money and lives would be greatly reduced. When we had nuclear weapons and no one else did we should have kept it that way. Now we allow everyone to build nuclear weapons. Hopefully we would have never used them again but it sure gave us unmeasured military superiority.

                                If there was a land invasion of the United States I believe we still could put up a pretty good fight. In addition to 25% of adults in the US owning personal weapons, we still have over 2,000,000 military Stateside and approximately 800,000 LEO in the US.

                                Mark
                                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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