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  • #16
    Re: Buy American made

    Originally posted by BadgerDave View Post
    If that statement is correct it begs the questions, "If Japanese auto companies can build factories and product in the US, and make a profit doing it, why can't US auto companies?" Should it matter that Toyota is foreign owned? Isn't creating jobs while boosting the economy and citizens standard of living the desired end result?
    I believe the answer you are looking for is the United Auto Workers union or lack thereof.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Buy American made

      Originally posted by 4thGenPlumber View Post
      The reason things aren't made here anymore is because of unions. It has nothing to do with greedy people going overseas for cheap labor. A lot of you have employes. How long would you be in business if you had to pay you guys a high wage pay 100% of there health benefits and continue paying after they retire and give them a pension. My guess is you would be out of business.
      I disagree with your opinion that things aren't made here anymore because of Unions. Big business like all the manufacturing that left our country is not like small business. Their bottom line is more than profit, it is profit at any cost and keeping stockholders happy.
      All those big businesses would have left even if they had to pay minimum wages and no benefits because where they are now they pay slave wages and don't have to deal with the EPA and OSHA. You can disagree with me all you want but that's my honest belief. Frank

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Buy American made

        Originally posted by 4thGenPlumber View Post
        The reason Toyota can have factories in the us and make a profit is simple there employes are not union. On average ford pays $60 hr for pay and benefits for an employe. Toyota pays $40 hr
        So then it's the unions demand for big wages thats really driving all those jobs out of the country. I'll bet those Toyota employees making $40 an hour aren't going to the Food Bank every week either.
        Last edited by BadgerDave; 10-13-2011, 02:35 PM. Reason: I can't spell
        Teach your kids about taxes..........eat 30 percent of their ice cream.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Buy American made

          Originally posted by BadgerDave View Post
          So then it's the unions demand for big wages thats really driving all those jobs out of the country. I'll bet those Toyota employees making $40 an hour aren't going to the Food Band every week either.
          From "factcheck.org"
          As for whether Toyota workers earn more than employees of U.S. domestic automakers: In 2006, at Toyota’s Georgetown, Ky., plant, workers averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members at Ford, General Motors and Daimler Chrysler, according to the Detroit Free Press. The difference was due to profit-sharing bonuses; Detroit’s workers aren’t getting many of those these days because, well, there’s really nothing to share. The transplants don’t give out much data, however, so it’s hard to tell if this pattern is continuing or even if it applied to all Toyota plants in 2006.

          When getting the facts straight or right, it seems there is still a lot of gray area. But those who don't know better or are looking for an excuse to down Unions will always use the facts that support thier case. I'd like to know the truth, but that seems to escape us as well. I'm still sure all the businesses that left the USA did so to enjoy slave labor at slave wages and no EPA or OSHA oversight. Don't worry, it will all be over soon.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Buy American made

            I think some of the problems with so called "statistics" on labor and product made here in the U.S. vs China (or other countries) is to some extent being "fudged" by the U.S. countries. And of course there's a lot of misunderstanding as exactly what is or isn't "American", as exampled by the "Ford" vs "Toyota".

            I worked for a century old "heavy machinery" manufacturer.... good ol' made in the U.S. of A company. Well, not exactly... a lot of thier stuff was made "overseas", both in Europe, South America, and in the last couple of decades in China and India.

            I had to run down some information on an old unit for a guy here on this forum last year. It took quite a few phone calls and I was rather dismayed to find that virtually no manufacturing was being done here in the U.S. anymore. All I could find in the old offices and manufacturing centers was "assembly and retrofit" people and customer support.

            Likewise the company that I retired from (we got spun off from the parent), has seen this facility decline from almost 4,000 employees in th 70's to less than 600 presently. Major products got moved to China under the previous administration, which provided considerable encentives to do so. The products are still labeled as "Made in the U.S.A." but the fact is that they are made in China for the most part, from our old engineering drawings. For "when it matters", many units are often returned here for final "fitting", test and re-ship. These are often in such a state that they have to be torn down and fixed before final test. Made in the U.S.A. doesn't necessarily mean what it once did and frankly, I'm not really sure how much that "labelling" is regulated.

            CWS
            Last edited by CWSmith; 10-13-2011, 02:08 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Buy American made

              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
              According to the latest United Nations Statistics data (United Nations Statistics Division - National Accounts) the United States is the largest manufacturing nation, with an output of approximately $1.83 Trillion. This is followed by China at $1.79T, with these two nations far outstripping any other nations (Japan $1.05T, Germany $767B and Italy $381B). The rate of growth in manufacturing in China far outstrips that of the US, with its manufacturing industry growing more than an order of magnitude in the last two decades, during which the US has not even doubled its output.
              While the numbers are true, they don't tell the story.

              First, US manufacturing is dominated by very expensive items such as aircraft and military systems. Very little in the way of consumer goods are manufactured in the United States.

              Second, China's policy is to hold its currency artificially low compared to the dollar. This results in Chinese goods being valued extremely low when measured in dollars. When you adjust for the currency difference, it becomes clear that China passed the US in manufacturing several years ago.

              A much more meaningful indicator is the comparative exports of the two countries. Our US trade deficit with China is between $250-290B. Again, that is much worse than it looks because of the monetary policy issue - by some estimates the impact is more like $1T per year.

              The reason you can buy your iphone or flatscreen TV for so cheap is not because of cheap labor. Although that certainly doesn't hurt, the fact is that in modern, automated mass production there is very little labor content in these products. Even mechanical items such as tools are designed for minimal labor content (eg, lots of snap-together plastic parts, overmolded grips, swaged parts that are not disassemblable, etc). The main reasons imports are cheap are (1) currency, (2) government subsidies, (3) low overhead to operate production facilities in China compared to the US.

              China is essentially dumping goods into the US market. A very large reason that the Chinese government holds wages low is NOT because it makes their goods cheap. They are already cheap, labor content for much of the stuff is not an issue. The reason for low wages is because the Chinese Government DOESN'T WANT THEIR 1.3B POPULATION TO CONSUME THEIR PRODUCTS. THey want to export them ALL.... creating a glut which keeps prices low. Why do they do this? Same reason they hold currency low and subsidize industry. To drive competitive businesses to either move their manufacturing to China or go under.

              If a US firm tried to do this, it would be brought up on anti-trust charges for illegal unfair and predatory business practices.

              The strategy is just the same as it would be for the hypothetical US company that was dumping. Once the competition has been eliminated, prices can then rise.

              And they will. We in the US will be left with high priced stuff and no competitive manufacturing capacity.

              I wonder what the UN statistics will say then?

              Buy American. It's a bargain.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Buy American made

                Just googled the number of people over the age of eighteen in america. 217 million.
                If everyone spent fifty dollars more a week buying american good than they do now, how much is that? Buy american. Please.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Buy American made

                  I can't afford to buy American...I also don't want the hassle of looking for "Made in USA" when I know it's often (if not mostly) a farce. So now we can start the "You can't afford NOT to" crap. If American made goods were competitive I would cheerfully purchase them but they are not.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Buy American made

                    Originally posted by Abbott View Post
                    I can't afford to buy American...I also don't want the hassle of looking for "Made in USA" when I know it's often (if not mostly) a farce. So now we can start the "You can't afford NOT to" crap. If American made goods were competitive I would cheerfully purchase them but they are not.
                    To the American People...This last post.

                    I'll bet you could fit "worker" in there word for word.
                    A guy who talks like that is most likely to be the number one Alien Employer as well.

                    "American Goods..American Workers..What's the difference?"
                    "Gimme my things...I want My Things"

                    Our culture sucks.


                    P.S.
                    Abbott,I only use your post as a vehicle.No lack of respect intended.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Buy American made

                      No problem DH and I don't employee illegal Mexican labor. But I still can't afford to buy American made even if it could be found. And hell I prefer Makita power tools (for my trades) over any other brand so why would I want to purchase sub-standard American made stuff when I can own the best Jap or Taiwan made stuff which is often better quality. I purchase what fits my budget then factor in availability and quality. I don't care where it is made. I earn my money and I will spend it where I please. If that doesn't suit some folks then they should be down there with that march on Wall Street crowd bitching about what other people do with their money.
                      Last edited by Abbott; 10-16-2011, 01:37 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Buy American made

                        It's getting harder and harder to buy "American". I'm not sure of exactly what that is anymore.

                        I have a Dodge Grand Caravan... I understand it is made in Canada. I used to drive a Toyota Tercel wagon, which I understood was "assembled in California". I drive on "Cooper" tires... as my mechanic tells me they're the last American manufacturer. But I think all "batteries" are now coming from Asia.

                        I have two Ryobi routers which were made in the U.S. and one Ridgid which was made in China.

                        I have a couple of G.E. appliances... made in China!

                        I have two Craftsman compressors... the big noisey one was made here in the U.S. and the little compact, comparitively quiet one was made in China. I was planning on buying a new "Ingersoll-Rand" compressor when I move my shop to the garage... They're made in India!

                        Most of the American brand clothing that I've bought in the past several years were made almost anywhere except the U.S. and I do NOT and will not buy any clothing at Walmart or Target).

                        All the "Stanley" stuff seems to be made in China and almost anything from Harbor Freight or even Home Depot and Lowes is NOT from the U.S.

                        My saw blades are made in Italy and my chisels are from the Czech Republic. I could pay a bit more and buy those from Canada though. Does anyone in the U.S. make chisels? Or radios? Or televisions? Or even underwear? Frankly, if you told me you'd give me $1000, if I could go through the next two weeks buying my everyday needs, but only buy "American", I would be hard-pressed to do so. I'm not even sure that the food we eat comes from here, much less other goods.

                        As a retired guy, I'm getting a little sick of taking the shaft on everything and now being told that it's good for "America" if we'd all just "buy American". I lived through Nixon's wage/price freezes that didn't prevent any store from hiking their prices, but did allow my employer to freeze everybody's wages. I loved it when Reagan allowed companies to raid their employee's pension funds by re-writing promised pension plans (mine went from 60% of my highest five-years' earnings to a meager percentage of my income "average" with the company... what would have been a pension of amost $2,000 a month is now only $320, after 30-years of service (and that doesn't cover my retirement health insurance).

                        I've watched as the government idiots made money real cheap for industry's benefit, but my savings now earns me nothing. And at the same time, my company-controlled 401K lost a fortune. Yeah, I can see where industry has had a real tough time of it, they've minimized my savings, robbed my pension, and mismanaged my 401K. Then if that wasn't bad enough, they then took away my job and the jobs of my friends and sent them to India and China.

                        Now I'm suppose to be a REAL American and own up to the fact that it was all my fault for shopping at Walmart and Harbor Frieght and driving a Canadian-made car and wearing underwear that was made in Malaysia. I don't recall ever being given a choice in that... were you?

                        What I do recall is my company made ever-increasing profits, paid ever-diminishing taxes and that the local tax burden got passed to home-owners like me. I do recall ever-dimished "raises" to the middle-class, while the management and other upper-classes enriched themselves with bonuses, increased benefits and salaries and received diminished taxes, more right-offs, and much more control over those of us who worked in their industries.

                        I don't remember Ford or Chrysler ever asking me if I wanted to pay more to get an American-made switch in one of their cars.... no, they just decided to go to China, because it made THEM more profit. The price of the car still went up, but I was never asked about it... were you?

                        I also don't recall that Black and Decker Stanley, or Ridgid, or Ryob, or any other manufacturer ask me which I'd rather have either. They're all competively price and like-wise featured and should I buy one over the other, it was rarely because of price.... nobody ever asked me if they should close their American factory and move it to China or anywhere else. THEY did for increased profits to thier management and to thier stockholders. I doubt that their workers got anymore than the workers at my employer's factories, either.

                        Bottom line is that the simple choice of buying American is a joke anymore. How exactly does one do that? I don't see an "American" aisle or section or even a sign pointing the way to such products. Guns maybe... yeah, my Henry is made in America!, but I'm not really sure about the bullets.

                        CWS

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Buy American made

                          Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                          It's getting harder and harder to buy "American". I'm not sure of exactly what that is anymore.

                          Bottom line is that the simple choice of buying American is a joke anymore. How exactly does one do that?
                          I haven't read your entire post yet CWS but the first sentence caught me and I agree with it. I don't know what is made in the USA and what isn't anymore and I am not going to spend the time it takes to find out. I purchase based on price, availability and quality. If I pay more for an item it's because I want that particular item over what other manufacturers are supplying. I don't pay more based on country of origin. If it says "Made in USA" on it and it is my choice based on my purchasing criteria then I am happy about that. If it does not say "Made in the USA" and it's the one I want then I am OK with that as well.

                          Now to read your entire post..
                          Last edited by Abbott; 10-16-2011, 02:12 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Buy American made

                            Standing ovation goes out to CWSMITH!


                            Edit to add: I sure wish I could afford to own a Henry rifle, they sure are nice. If I ever get a 38/357 lever action shooter It will likely be a used Marlin, it will fit my "recreational" budget a bit better.
                            Last edited by Abbott; 10-16-2011, 02:21 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Buy American made

                              Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                              It's getting harder and harder to buy "American". I'm not sure of exactly what that is anymore.

                              I have a Dodge Grand Caravan... I understand it is made in Canada. I used to drive a Toyota Tercel wagon, which I understood was "assembled in California". I drive on "Cooper" tires... as my mechanic tells me they're the last American manufacturer. But I think all "batteries" are now coming from Asia.

                              I have two Ryobi routers which were made in the U.S. and one Ridgid which was made in China.

                              I have a couple of G.E. appliances... made in China!

                              I have two Craftsman compressors... the big noisey one was made here in the U.S. and the little compact, comparitively quiet one was made in China. I was planning on buying a new "Ingersoll-Rand" compressor when I move my shop to the garage... They're made in India!

                              Most of the American brand clothing that I've bought in the past several years were made almost anywhere except the U.S. and I do NOT and will not buy any clothing at Walmart or Target).

                              All the "Stanley" stuff seems to be made in China and almost anything from Harbor Freight or even Home Depot and Lowes is NOT from the U.S.

                              My saw blades are made in Italy and my chisels are from the Czech Republic. I could pay a bit more and buy those from Canada though. Does anyone in the U.S. make chisels? Or radios? Or televisions? Or even underwear? Frankly, if you told me you'd give me $1000, if I could go through the next two weeks buying my everyday needs, but only buy "American", I would be hard-pressed to do so. I'm not even sure that the food we eat comes from here, much less other goods.

                              As a retired guy, I'm getting a little sick of taking the shaft on everything and now being told that it's good for "America" if we'd all just "buy American". I lived through Nixon's wage/price freezes that didn't prevent any store from hiking their prices, but did allow my employer to freeze everybody's wages. I loved it when Reagan allowed companies to raid their employee's pension funds by re-writing promised pension plans (mine went from 60% of my highest five-years' earnings to a meager percentage of my income "average" with the company... what would have been a pension of amost $2,000 a month is now only $320, after 30-years of service (and that doesn't cover my retirement health insurance).

                              I've watched as the government idiots made money real cheap for industry's benefit, but my savings now earns me nothing. And at the same time, my company-controlled 401K lost a fortune. Yeah, I can see where industry has had a real tough time of it, they've minimized my savings, robbed my pension, and mismanaged my 401K. Then if that wasn't bad enough, they then took away my job and the jobs of my friends and sent them to India and China.

                              Now I'm suppose to be a REAL American and own up to the fact that it was all my fault for shopping at Walmart and Harbor Frieght and driving a Canadian-made car and wearing underwear that was made in Malaysia. I don't recall ever being given a choice in that... were you?

                              What I do recall is my company made ever-increasing profits, paid ever-diminishing taxes and that the local tax burden got passed to home-owners like me. I do recall ever-dimished "raises" to the middle-class, while the management and other upper-classes enriched themselves with bonuses, increased benefits and salaries and received diminished taxes, more right-offs, and much more control over those of us who worked in their industries.

                              I don't remember Ford or Chrysler ever asking me if I wanted to pay more to get an American-made switch in one of their cars.... no, they just decided to go to China, because it made THEM more profit. The price of the car still went up, but I was never asked about it... were you?

                              I also don't recall that Black and Decker Stanley, or Ridgid, or Ryob, or any other manufacturer ask me which I'd rather have either. They're all competively price and like-wise featured and should I buy one over the other, it was rarely because of price.... nobody ever asked me if they should close their American factory and move it to China or anywhere else. THEY did for increased profits to thier management and to thier stockholders. I doubt that their workers got anymore than the workers at my employer's factories, either.

                              Bottom line is that the simple choice of buying American is a joke anymore. How exactly does one do that? I don't see an "American" aisle or section or even a sign pointing the way to such products. Guns maybe... yeah, my Henry is made in America!, but I'm not really sure about the bullets.

                              CWS
                              Well, you could always try reading the box. I do, and find that at least 9 out of 10 products are pretty clearly marked. I currently have Winchester and Federal ammo... it all says "Made in USA" right on the boxes. I equally well know that Tulammo and some others aren't US made... I don't buy them.... they generally get crappy reviews, anyway.

                              Obviously if there is no US product available, then you have no choice.

                              It's America.... do whatever you want. But all these arguments about why you can't buy USA are a cop out. The bottom line is you don't care or don't believe it's important.

                              Some of us do, and are willing to take 10 seconds to look at what we buy and to try to support the US economy where we can.

                              Thanks to those that understand that if we don't support our own economy, for our own sake and that of our children, no one else will.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Buy American made

                                Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                                Well, you could always try reading the box. I do, and find that at least 9 out of 10 products are pretty clearly marked. I currently have Winchester and Federal ammo... it all says "Made in USA" right on the boxes. I equally well know that Tulammo and some others aren't US made... I don't buy them.... they generally get crappy reviews, anyway.

                                Obviously if there is no US product available, then you have no choice.

                                It's America.... do whatever you want. But all these arguments about why you can't buy USA are a cop out. The bottom line is you don't care or don't believe it's important.

                                Some of us do, and are willing to take 10 seconds to look at what we buy and to try to support the US economy where we can.

                                Thanks to those that understand that if we don't support our own economy, for our own sake and that of our children, no one else will.
                                Great post Andy! Sad how some so called Americans are too lazy to support America and democracy by reading a dam label! They choose to support communism, what a disgrace! Frank

                                Comment

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