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Made in the USA and Unions

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  • #31
    Re: Made in the USA and Unions

    For what it's worth, I used to havea apprentice, and lived with him later, that couldn't hack it as a HELPER.

    So he went to the union. Is doing some pipefitting. Incompetent as hell.

    But they accepted him. And they are now paying him more than I make. He has worked there for, 3 months now. He isn't a "pipefitter" but is going to be one or something, he is still a HELPER.

    Now tell me unions don't pay too much.. He probably makes on average 400 more a week than me, and I get by justtttt fine.

    Of course, that is a bad example and doesn't speak for every union everywhere, but honestly do we really need unions? Sure for safety, and benefits and fairness, but not pay. I have heard stories that if you are a plumbering and work for the union, you better not try to cut a board, that is a carpenters job or whatever. Really now? Not only does that slow the plumber down, but now they have to bring another trade, spend more money, just to get a simple thing done.

    Not against you Frank, and didn't mean to call you insane, I just think you are biased in your opinion. As the union has done you well, it's hard to see outside the house that union built for you. And I respect that, but from my house, then union is just a bad job that I would only have if McDonalds weren't hiring.

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    • #32
      Re: Made in the USA and Unions

      Originally posted by stolen View Post
      For what it's worth, I used to havea apprentice, and lived with him later, that couldn't hack it as a HELPER.

      So he went to the union. Is doing some pipefitting. Incompetent as hell.

      But they accepted him. And they are now paying him more than I make. He has worked there for, 3 months now. He isn't a "pipefitter" but is going to be one or something, he is still a HELPER.

      Now tell me unions don't pay too much.. He probably makes on average 400 more a week than me, and I get by justtttt fine.

      Of course, that is a bad example and doesn't speak for every union everywhere, but honestly do we really need unions? Sure for safety, and benefits and fairness, but not pay. I have heard stories that if you are a plumbering and work for the union, you better not try to cut a board, that is a carpenters job or whatever. Really now? Not only does that slow the plumber down, but now they have to bring another trade, spend more money, just to get a simple thing done.

      Not against you Frank, and didn't mean to call you insane, I just think you are biased in your opinion. As the union has done you well, it's hard to see outside the house that union built for you. And I respect that, but from my house, then union is just a bad job that I would only have if McDonalds weren't hiring.
      No offense taken. Our life's experiences shape our opinions and behavior. I just think Unions have done their best to help members keep pace with inflation. I know they also protect bums and I know some are guilty of criminal behavior. I am open and honest enought to admit that. I believe the same of our most trusted legislators and white collar professionals. There are good and bad things in everything, hard to impossible to find perfection. We do our best to function within the situations we find ourselves. Good night all. Frank

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      • #33
        Re: Made in the USA and Unions

        Originally posted by Flux View Post
        Come on Frank, that is the most absurd thing I ever seen you say. I never met or seen a Union worker who was struggling to make ends meet. If he is struggling to make ends meet, then maybe his priorities are not in the right order, and he's living beyond his means.
        I would happen a guess that you don't know too many union workers too well. Or they know you so they're not telling you the truth. Anyway, /i know plenty of union construction workers who have been hit hard the past three years. Some have been lucky to get work through the hall for even a few weeks out of the past 24 months. There is little if any heavy construction going on around here. There is very little light commercial and residential work, and industrial maintenance and new construction is all but dried up. The refineries that exist on the Delaware in NJ, DE, and PA are almost all closed up. Only a couple of the dozen or more remain. The oil companies have taken refining the crude overseas and ship finished product in tanker to the USA. The only part of those refineries that still operates in my area is the tank farm and the unloading terminals for the tankers and the equipment in between to get the fuel off the tankers and into the storage tanks. That means all that refinery shutdown work (whether it was union or not) is now gone. Those one or two month outages where those guys worked 7-10s which helped to make up for off times are gone. All the ancillary business generated in the area by those outages is gone such as guys hitting the mom and pop delis for a cup of coffee or a meal, that too is gone. What about the work clothes you would buy every year if you worked a couple turn-around? Those bibs and boots and jackets and work gloves etc that were so dirty you could never get them clean so you just toss them in the trash and buy new. All that commerce is gone. the list goes on. Every dollar in direct wages for jobs such as those that is lost to overseas is in reality about 3 or 4 dollars because that first is not re-spent on goods and services here in the USA.

        You guys really need to get off the union/non-union thing and think bigger. The problems we face in this country are much larger than that. In a post not long ago some commented on unions getting raises for their people and non-union were not. Well, that is one of the functions of a union, to see that they are fairly compensated for their work. If you are non-union then you have the bargaining power of one...yourself. Big business does the same thing using lobbyists and trade associations. They attempt to manipulate Congress and local and State governments to make the world more profitable for them. They want or resist changes to laws and regulations, tax codes, EPA and OSHA rules, Minimum Wage laws, etc. Why is that OK but an association of working people looking to secure a more profitable working environment for themselves wrong?

        How about a small business that looks to buy from a supplier. Lets say you buy 2000 or less pounds of copper a year from supplier ABC. And I, a much larger mechanical contractor with over 150 employees buy thousands of pounds of copper a month. I go to ABC and negotiate a price per pound for copper no matter what size I might need for the coming year. And I can command a good price because of the volume I am committing for and based on past purchases ABC knows I will buy that much or more.

        You on the other hand go to ABC and can't get the same price. Why? Isn't your money just as green as mine? You've been a loyal customer for many years, you might be inclined to feel like you're being cheated or treated unfairly. But are you really?

        So my point is these principles would seem to be applicable to union and non-union folks just as easily as they are to large and small scale businesses. Why is it OK for big business to do it and not people?

        I think schools are out of control. But its our own fault. How many go to school elections? They reported turnout of registered voters is usually less than 25%, that's disgraceful when you consider that about two thirds of your property tax is school tax. The group with the biggest impact on your property tax bill is allowed to run amok. Again, another group that is allowed to vote themselves raises and spend, spend, spend with little or no checks or oversight.
        "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006

        https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerToolInstitute

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        • #34
          Re: Made in the USA and Unions

          Originally posted by Flux View Post
          Come on Frank, that is the most absurd thing I ever seen you say.
          I have seen Frank say a lot stupider crap then that.
          Last edited by Abbott; 10-16-2011, 02:10 PM.

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          • #35
            Re: Made in the USA and Unions

            Okay guys, it is okay to disagree, it is not okay to berate or insult.

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Made in the USA and Unions

              Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
              I would happen a guess that you don't know too many union workers too well.

              You guys really need to get off the union/non-union thing and think bigger.
              You're comparing an un-employed Union worker versus an employed Union worker. Common sense would say an un-employed worker would be struggling, and I don't think anyone here needs that to be clarified.

              As long as our tax dollars go towards Unions, it should always be an issue, because we are talking about billions of dollars in spending every year for 20% of our population, and something is wrong with that. As long as we the tax payer are paying Union salaries, we have every right to speak up and out against them if we so wish.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                Originally posted by Flux View Post
                You're comparing an un-employed Union worker versus an employed Union worker. Common sense would say an un-employed worker would be struggling, and I don't think anyone here needs that to be clarified.

                As long as our tax dollars go towards Unions, it should always be an issue, because we are talking about billions of dollars in spending every year for 20% of our population, and something is wrong with that. As long as we the tax payer are paying Union salaries, we have every right to speak up and out against them if we so wish.
                I agree that you have every right to speak up and out, but a lot of your anger is misplaced. Many employed Union workers have agreed to wage freezes and givebacks such as the CT state Union workers who agreed to a billion and a half in concessions. Employed Union workers pay their taxes, mortgages and credit debt and don't contribute to property devaluation. They also are able to spend money in their communities. The same argument you use towards paying for Union workers rising costs (which is not true) could be said of every customer paying for the rising costs of trademen who pass their costs onto the customer. YOu pay every rising gasoilne and heating oil and food costs without complaints. I see the real culprit as inflation because if inflation was down so would salaries and costs. Well, that's not entirely true either. We can't stop big oil from raising costs regardless of their profits. Go right ahead and complain about Union workers, but try to get your inflrmation correct, plenty of them still working are not seeing raises. White collar workers, politicians, big oil and others are raising the cost of living. How about expanding your scope and seeing the big picture. If you are upset about billions of dollars spent on 20% of the population who contribute to the economy like yourself imagine the hundreds of billions or trillions spent on 5 or 10 % of the population who contribute nothing but just take, take take?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                  Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                  I agree that you have every right to speak up and out, but a lot of your anger is misplaced. Many employed Union workers have agreed to wage freezes and givebacks such as the CT state Union workers who agreed to a billion and a half in concessions. Employed Union workers pay their taxes, mortgages and credit debt and don't contribute to property devaluation. They also are able to spend money in their communities. The same argument you use towards paying for Union workers rising costs (which is not true) could be said of every customer paying for the rising costs of trademen who pass their costs onto the customer. YOu pay every rising gasoilne and heating oil and food costs without complaints. I see the real culprit as inflation because if inflation was down so would salaries and costs. Well, that's not entirely true either. We can't stop big oil from raising costs regardless of their profits. Go right ahead and complain about Union workers, but try to get your inflrmation correct, plenty of them still working are not seeing raises. White collar workers, politicians, big oil and others are raising the cost of living. How about expanding your scope and seeing the big picture. If you are upset about billions of dollars spent on 20% of the population who contribute to the economy like yourself imagine the hundreds of billions or trillions spent on 5 or 10 % of the population who contribute nothing but just take, take take?
                  Frank you and I will never agree when it comes to Unions.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                    Originally posted by Flux View Post
                    Frank you and I will never agree when it comes to Unions.
                    That's fine, we have led different lives and drawn different conclusions. Flux, is it possible to agree that open borders and millions of illegals have not been a good idea? Could we agree that goverenment overspending and debt to other countries is a bad idea? Could we agree that millions of Americans unemployed while most of our consumer goods come from a communsit country is a bad idea? Would you agree that people who commit fraud deserve jail time? I think there are plenty of areas in which we could agree. I know I worked long, hard hours to support my family and did so in a productive job all the Union stuff aside. If you believe you work hard and are productive then we have some things in common. Don't allow my Union support and appreciation overwhelm or prejudice your opinion of myself or others.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                      It's obvious since only 7% of the private sector work force in the USA is unionized that there will be plenty who resent the union worker. I believe unions are a necessity when the workers are employed by a large employer. The union gives the little worker a voice at the corporate table. It seems that some anti-union folks believe that the; 40hr work week, workman compensation, healthcare insurance etc. came from the benevolent corporation! To me, one of most important functions of a union is to act as a governor to the corporate machine (meaning that boardroom gives a listen to the working parts; the people not just input and the output). I believe in capitalism, but with constraints. Are unions perfect? of course not. Are corporations perfect?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                        Originally posted by cutnail View Post
                        It's obvious since only 7% of the private sector work force in the USA is unionized that there will be plenty who resent the union worker. I believe unions are a necessity when the workers are employed by a large employer. The union gives the little worker a voice at the corporate table. It seems that some anti-union folks believe that the; 40hr work week, workman compensation, healthcare insurance etc. came from the benevolent corporation! To me, one of most important functions of a union is to act as a governor to the corporate machine (meaning that boardroom gives a listen to the working parts; the people not just input and the output). I believe in capitalism, but with constraints. Are unions perfect? of course not. Are corporations perfect?
                        That was a very well thought out and sensible post, unfortunately there is very little tolerance for Unions on this Forum so expect some stupid remarks. Thanks for the effort. Frank

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                          That was a very well thought out and sensible post, unfortunately there is very little tolerance for Unions on this Forum so expect some stupid remarks. Thanks for the effort. Frank
                          I don't know Frank.But I would almost want to say that the business owners on this forum,like myself,have seen how the unions themselves have gotten out of control.
                          I for one want them dismantled because I was told they are funding lobbyists to nationalize illegals to fill more unions.

                          It would be nice if the unions could work without them getting out of whack.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                            Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
                            I don't know Frank.But I would almost want to say that the business owners on this forum,like myself,have seen how the unions themselves have gotten out of control.
                            I for one want them dismantled because I was told they are funding lobbyists to nationalize illegals to fill more unions.

                            It would be nice if the unions could work without them getting out of whack.
                            Big business has their own lobbyists influencing politicians who are for sale same as the Unions. Our government is up to the highest bidder that's why Unions contribute to politicians, same as business. Make the comparison and you will see the only folks on the losing end are those who don't have lobbyists in washington. Dismantle the Unions and millions of working folks will see reduced income which will negatively impact everyone they do business with including small business owners. I doubt there are many illegals running to become legal, why should they when we pay their medical and now college? We can argue all day as to who does more harm to the country, but in my opinion the madoffs, solyndras, and wallstreet cheats do more and give back nothing but no one seems to be calling for them to be dismantled? OF course small business owners here have no use or love lost for Unions that would cut into their profits to raise workers pay, that makes perfect sense. From where I have been in life it makes perfect sense for big business that is profitable to and needs a large, dedicated work force to pay more where they can. The jobs are gone, Union and nonUnion minimum wage and with them went any hope of our country becoming stable. I think we can cut government spending, increase taxes on the wealthy, dismantle the Unions and still not make a dent in our problems without manufacturing what we consume and employing millions of Amercians. Good luck with the Union thing, I don't think it will help a bit. Frank
                            P.S. New Jersey governor jon corzine was responsible for losing over 168 million dollars of investors money when he was working in the private sector. He said he felt bad and would not accept his 12 million dollar severence pay. Another white collar hero

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                              Originally posted by cutnail View Post
                              It's obvious since only 7% of the private sector work force in the USA is unionized that there will be plenty who resent the union worker. I believe unions are a necessity when the workers are employed by a large employer. The union gives the little worker a voice at the corporate table. It seems that some anti-union folks believe that the; 40hr work week, workman compensation, healthcare insurance etc. came from the benevolent corporation! To me, one of most important functions of a union is to act as a governor to the corporate machine (meaning that boardroom gives a listen to the working parts; the people not just input and the output). I believe in capitalism, but with constraints. Are unions perfect? of course not. Are corporations perfect?
                              And there in lies the problem with the Union argument. They always want to claim how bad things would be in America without them. Why is it there are significantly more employees in the United States with 40hr work week, workman compensation, healthcare insurance who are non-Union than those who are Union? Could it possibly be because some employers are benevolent? If you want to work in a Union shop I'm all for it but Unions are not for everyone. When I left the Union it was the best thing I ever did.

                              To Adam's point, I personally don't know a single Union member who agrees with the political views of their Union. However, the Union still spends hundreds of millions in Union dues to support their lobbyists and candidates.

                              Mark
                              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                                Big business has their own lobbyists influencing politicians who are for sale same as the Unions. Our government is up to the highest bidder that's why Unions contribute to politicians, same as business. Make the comparison and you will see the only folks on the losing end are those who don't have lobbyists in washington. Dismantle the Unions and millions of working folks will see reduced income which will negatively impact everyone they do business with including small business owners. I doubt there are many illegals running to become legal, why should they when we pay their medical and now college? We can argue all day as to who does more harm to the country, but in my opinion the madoffs, solyndras, and wallstreet cheats do more and give back nothing but no one seems to be calling for them to be dismantled? OF course small business owners here have no use or love lost for Unions that would cut into their profits to raise workers pay, that makes perfect sense. From where I have been in life it makes perfect sense for big business that is profitable to and needs a large, dedicated work force to pay more where they can. The jobs are gone, Union and nonUnion minimum wage and with them went any hope of our country becoming stable. I think we can cut government spending, increase taxes on the wealthy, dismantle the Unions and still not make a dent in our problems without manufacturing what we consume and employing millions of Amercians. Good luck with the Union thing, I don't think it will help a bit. Frank
                                P.S. New Jersey governor jon corzine was responsible for losing over 168 million dollars of investors money when he was working in the private sector. He said he felt bad and would not accept his 12 million dollar severence pay. Another white collar hero
                                I appreciate your point of view Frank.

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