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Made in the USA and Unions

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  • #46
    Re: Made in the USA and Unions

    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
    And there in lies the problem with the Union argument. They always want to claim how bad things would be in America without them. Why is it there are significantly more employees in the United States with 40hr work week, workman compensation, healthcare insurance who are non-Union than those who are Union? Could it possibly be because some employers are benevolent? If you want to work in a Union shop I'm all for it but Unions are not for everyone. When I left the Union it was the best thing I ever did.

    To Adam's point, I personally don't know a single Union member who agrees with the political views of their Union. However, the Union still spends hundreds of millions in Union dues to support their lobbyists and candidates.

    Mark
    Mark, the Unions spend hundreds of millions of dollars supporting candidates who will support and defend their agenda. Since big business does the same it only makes sense to level the playing field. Personally I don't respect or agree with what democrats or republicans have done with my country. We are over run with illegals, dependant on a communist coutnry for loans to keep our government running and for most of our consumer goods. I don't think either party has anything to be proud of and both had multiple chances to do better. So Unions and big business pay to bribe our stand up legislators who can't just do what's right for the country. I'm glad you quit your Union and went on to be successful, that is not the case for most small business owners. You are an exception and I am happy for you. I hope you are happy that my Union membership allowed me to work and have a good life. Frank

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    • #47
      Re: Made in the USA and Unions

      Heres a great clip showing the union in action


      26+6=1

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Made in the USA and Unions

        Originally posted by EJW1 View Post
        Heres a great clip showing the union in action



        I sympathize with that business owner's plight. He is dealing with Union bullies! The video above demonstrates the confusion of the professional politician. I wonder if anyone who feels bad for that business owner and how he is being wronged, would feel bad for working folks who are forced to strike because they are losing income to a big, wealthy business? I didn't think so. If your heart only goes out for the business owner and not for the actual worker, then it's clear to me you are not worth the effort. I lost many months of pay when New York Tel, aka, Bell Atlantic, aka, NYNEX, aka, Verizon, decided it would not negotiate in good faith and brought in scabs. No compassion or sympathy for the working man here, I get it. Yes, there are bad Union folks and if you have half a brain or are just a decent human being you would admit there are bad business owners. I for one am very glad Unions exist, although not perfect the alternatives are worse.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Made in the USA and Unions

          Originally posted by cutnail View Post
          It's obvious since only 7% of the private sector work force in the USA is unionized that there will be plenty who resent the union worker. I believe unions are a necessity when the workers are employed by a large employer. The union gives the little worker a voice at the corporate table. It seems that some anti-union folks believe that the; 40hr work week, workman compensation, healthcare insurance etc. came from the benevolent corporation! To me, one of most important functions of a union is to act as a governor to the corporate machine (meaning that boardroom gives a listen to the working parts; the people not just input and the output). I believe in capitalism, but with constraints. Are unions perfect? of course not. Are corporations perfect?
          Labor Unions were a necessity 100 hundred years ago but over the last 40 years they have a hand in why jobs have left this country. They also have a hand in why things are so expensive for us to buy today as well. Labor Unions are no different than the Italian mafia today, in where they force-demand-and take what they believe is theirs. My tax dollars shouldn't be paying for some Union employee to have better benefits than me or the "majority" of this country. Level the playing field and force Unions to chip in for their own benefits like the rest of the country has to do. Union pensions are crippling the tax payer and consumer...that needs to change.

          Don't blame corporations, blame their investors and wall street for the return they want on their money.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Made in the USA and Unions

            Originally posted by Flux View Post
            Labor Unions were a necessity 100 hundred years ago but over the last 40 years they have a hand in why jobs have left this country. They also have a hand in why things are so expensive for us to buy today as well. Labor Unions are no different than the Italian mafia today, in where they force-demand-and take what they believe is theirs. My tax dollars shouldn't be paying for some Union employee to have better benefits than me or the "majority" of this country. Level the playing field and force Unions to chip in for their own benefits like the rest of the country has to do. Union pensions are crippling the tax payer and consumer...that needs to change.

            Don't blame corporations, blame their investors and wall street for the return they want on their money.
            I am not in favor of the tactics used in the St Louis Paving incident given above. If a company's
            employees do not want to be part of a union, that is their choice and that should be that. Those
            employees are Americans and they have a right to choose if they want to work union or not. If they
            have no interest or it is put to them and they collectively vote no then that should be the end of it.
            If the employees vote yes and the employer chooses to fight it its a different story, but the St. Louis
            Paving incident does not sound like thats how it went down. Some here (from both sides) will disagree
            with my views, that's your right, just as those empoyees have a right to choose. No one should be able
            to force them into joining a union as it appears was being done in the St. Louis Paving incident.


            Don't blame all unions for the bad taste you have for them because of public employee unions (including teachers unions).

            From what I have seen there is a world of difference between a public employee union and say a building trades union such as the UA or the IBEW or IW, OE, you name it. For the building trades unions I know of, their benefits come out of whatever raise their contract gives then that year (if any). So for instance if they got a $1 raise any increase in the H&W contribution to cover the spiraling health care and prescription drug costs and maintain the same level of coverage they have now would come out of that dollar. If their Pension Fund was in need of more cash because of people like Madof and others who bilked everyone in this country well the money to cover the increased premium also comes out of that dollar. The costs to operate their training programs (which so many of you have proclaimed here time and again as top notch having benefited from it yourself and then left after receiving thousands of dollars worth of training to capitalize on that training on your own) goes up each year, that cost is born by the member and comes out of that dollar. The list goes on and many years there is only a fraction of that dollar left to go in their pocket to buy bread or gas or pay the mortgage with. The building trades H&W and pension systems work the way they do because in most cases they don't work for one employer long enough to get vested in a pension. Many Journeymen move from contractor to contractor, following the work. Some are lucky to get long term jobs and stay with a contractor for years. I know JM who have done both just as many on here do.

            So my point is not all unions are the same. When a PEU (public employees union) member gets a 3% raise that's most times all going in their paycheck. The costs to maintain their H&W benefits is on top of that. But that is no different than the non-union employee (public or private) who gets a raise.

            You want a level playing field? You want your tax dollars to go for equality? How about taking our Senators and Congressman OFF their Rolls Royce health & welfare plans and pension plans and bring their high and mighty butts back to earth wiht the rest of us! When they are back under our (the taxpayers) control, then things will start to change. As long as their raises and benefits are proposed and approved for and by themselves, they could care less what you or anyone else gets. You tax dollars should not be paying for them for the rest of their lives just because they did 8 years in DC. THAT'S TOTAL BULLCRAP!!

            How often would you give yourself a raise or increase your benefits if you had the power to do so and could do it with someone elses money? Every chance you got is my bet.
            Last edited by Bob D.; 11-06-2011, 10:45 AM.
            "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006

            https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerToolInstitute

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Made in the USA and Unions

              Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
              I am not in favor of the tactics used in the St Louis Paving incident given above. If a company's
              employees do not want to be part of a union, that is their choice and that should be that. Those
              employees are Americans and they have a right to choose if they want to work union or not. If they
              have no interest or it is put to them and they collectively vote no then that should be the end of it.
              If the employees vote yes and the employer chooses to fight it its a different story, but the St. Louis
              Paving incident does not sound like thats how it went down. Some here (from both sides) will disagree
              with my views, that's your right, just as those empoyees have a right to choose. No one should be able
              to force them into joining a union as it appears was being done in the St. Louis Paving incident.


              Don't blame all unions for the bad taste you have for them because of public employee unions (including teachers unions).

              From what I have seen there is a world of difference between a public employee union and say a building trades union such as the UA or the IBEW or IW, OE, you name it. For the building trades unions I know of, their benefits come out of whatever raise their contract gives then that year (if any). So for instance if they got a $1 raise any increase in the H&W contribution to cover the spiraling health care and prescription drug costs and maintain the same level of coverage they have now would come out of that dollar. If their Pension Fund was in need of more cash because of people like Madof and others who bilked everyone in this country well the money to cover the increased premium also comes out of that dollar. The costs to operate their training programs (which so many of you have proclaimed here time and again as top notch having benefited from it yourself and then left after receiving thousands of dollars worth of training to capitalize on that training on your own) goes up each year, that cost is born by the member and comes out of that dollar. The list goes on and many years there is only a fraction of that dollar left to go in their pocket to buy bread or gas or pay the mortgage with. The building trades H&W and pension systems work the way they do because in most cases they don't work for one employer long enough to get vested in a pension. Many Journeymen move from contractor to contractor, following the work. Some are lucky to get long term jobs and stay with a contractor for years. I know JM who have done both just as many on here do.

              So my point is not all unions are the same. When a PEU (public employees union) member gets a 3% raise that's most times all going in their paycheck. The costs to maintain their H&W benefits is on top of that. But that is no different than the non-union employee (public or private) who gets a raise.

              You want a level playing field? You want your tax dollars to go for equality? How about taking our Senators and Congressman OFF their Rolls Royce health & welfare plans and pension plans and bring their high and mighty butts back to earth wiht the rest of us! When they are back under our (the taxpayers) control, then things will start to change. As long as their raises and benefits are proposed and approved for and by themselves, they could care less what you or anyone else gets. You tax dollars should not be paying for them for the rest of their lives just because they did 8 years in DC. THAT'S TOTAL BULLCRAP!!

              How often would you give yourself a raise or increase your benefits if you had the power to do so and could do it with someone elses money? Every chance you got is my bet.
              You and I are not much different on views here...I agree with a lot of what you say.

              I have no problems with Union employees getting a pay raise, my problem is their benefits and pensions. But to sit there and defend Building trade Unions about their benefits coming out of contracts, when these Union people should be ticked off at their Union officials BLOWING millions of their employees dollars in to political campaigns. How much "waste" spending do the Unions do? Why isn't that ever talked about? Why don't the employees demand that their money doesn't go into ANY political campaign?

              Trying to compare a business owner to an employee doesn't work. An owner always pays for his benefits anyways, so I can't put myself in the shoes of an employee. Remember, benefits are the reason why someone might take a job...it's not a right.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                But to sit there and defend Building trade Unions about their benefits coming out of contracts, when these Union people should be ticked off at their Union officials BLOWING millions of their employees dollars in to political campaigns.
                Those are two different issues. The waste, abuse, or thievery committed by some is the result of that individuals less than honest character. And unfortunately it happens everywhere, in your county and local governments, in union leaderships, with big business managers, and in Washington.
                Since we as a society let these criminals get off scott free many times, we have perpetuated and encouraged this condition. When we let politicians 'retire' from public life or when CEOs are allowed to quit before the hammer falls in court with no consequence on themselves, thats wrong. When charges are about to be levied against some freeholder or councilman and we let them resign "because they need to put more time in with their families" or "personal reasons" and then they avoid the fallout from their misdeeds that is wrong. There is no personal accountably anymore. And we are all paying the price for this attitude which collectively we have allowed to become the norm.
                "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006

                https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerToolInstitute

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                  Remember, benefits are the reason why someone might take a job...it's not a right.
                  But, if you and I agree that certain conditions are part of a deal which we both enter into eyes open we have a contract. For one side to not uphold their end of that contract is not right.

                  Let's say I sign an agreement with you to work for me from now until I tell you to stop, and we have agreed on a price to be paid for each unit or work you do performing this service.

                  Then a few months down the road I tell you I can no longer pay you what I previously agreed to, but I want you to do the same job just as you have been doing with the same quality as before but I can now only pay you 85% of what I did in the past. Oh, and by the way, we had to let one of your co-workers go so you'll have to do a portion of his work too; we split his load between you and two of your co-workers; but there is no more money or other compensation in it for you. Sorry.

                  My point is the benefits were part of the package I agree to when I took the job. To modify the agreement we had (union contract or not) is not right. It requires the opportunity for both parties to agree to the new terms proposed (not dictated) by the other party. If an agreement is reached then the contract can be modified, if not everything should have to remain the same until the end of the contract. Doesn't matter if you're laying pipe or hanging sheet rock or plugging away at a keyboard all day, work is work and a contract is a contract. When the contract expires all bets are off and you can start from scratch, until then both sides needs to live up to the contract. If you can't hold up your end then you didn't plan too well I guess.

                  This happened where my wife works, she is not part of a union, not that makes a difference because it happened to some of the union people too who work at the same place. Her office lost two people, and the 4 remaining had to pick up the slack taking on roughly 50% more work each. And I know my wife; she is not a slacker; she was loaded before they laid the extra work on her and she is not able to keep up with the additional work now. It's only been a few months so the sh!t has not hit the fan yet. She keeps bringing up that one person can not do all that needs to be done in the time allotted, no one seems to be listening.
                  Last edited by Bob D.; 11-06-2011, 12:37 PM.
                  "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006

                  https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerToolInstitute

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                    Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                    Those are two different issues. The waste, abuse, or thievery committed by some is the result of that individuals less than honest character. And unfortunately it happens everywhere, in your county and local governments, in union leaderships, with big business managers, and in Washington.
                    See...I see it as 1 issue, because that money should go towards their own benefits and pensions, instead of bilking the taxpayer and consumer for more of the same.

                    Ben Franklin had it correct when he said this country is a Republic "if" we can keep it. A shame that's not taught in schools anymore, cause the generations under me don't know anything about our fore fathers. Blame ourselves for not changing the culture in Washington to let them know they work for us...not the other way around.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                      Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                      But, if you and I agree that certain conditions are part of a deal which we both enter into eyes open we have a contract. For one side to not uphold their end of that contract is not right.

                      Let's say I sign an agreement with you to work for me from now until I tell you to stop, and we have agreed on a price to be paid for each unit or work you do performing this service.

                      Then a few months down the road I tell you I can no longer pay you what I previously agreed to, but I want you to do the same job just as you have been doing with the same quality as before but I can now only pay you 85% of what I did in the past. Oh, and by the way, we had to let one of your co-workers go so you'll have to do a portion of his work too; we split his load between you and two of your co-workers; but there is no more money or other compensation in it for you. Sorry.
                      That's very easy to answer, if I don't like my job anymore or what it entails...I quit and find another one that suits my needs. Whether I didn't like it before I was hired...5 years down the road..I will find something else.

                      It's not my place to tell the company how things are going to be, unless it's an issue with my own personal safety.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                        I'm glad some folks here are young enough, independant enough and can live with their parents so they can switch jobs when the boss decides to cut their benefits and pay. In the real world, people who work for big companies like I did, developed job specific skills over many years. Our employer invested in our training and compensated us at contract time with money and benefits. that will not change. When you are making 70K or more a year, pay a mortgage, property taxes in excess of 10K, and have the responsibilities of a family, you know better than to say you will just find another job. I can only imagine the life experience of someone who could say such a thing, it must be very limited. I know that myself and the tens of thousands of folks I worked with could never find "new" jobs to pay out bills or support the many small businesses we had contact with in our communities.
                        Like I said, if you are earning minimum wage and living at home with mom and dad, I can see finding a new job to replace your current one. I suggest you run the numbers when you have grown up financial responsibilities and rethink your foolish response. I worked with a lot of young guys and they ahd all sorts of crazy ideas, like not needing medical coverage, or savings. They lived for the moment, spoke out of their butts and were clueless to adult needs and behavior. Life and time is a good educator, it takes the strong, young, fearless loudmouths and tempers them into older wiser men. If they are lucky. Frank

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                          When you are making 70K or more a year, pay a mortgage, property taxes in excess of 10K, and have the responsibilities of a family, you know better than to say you will just find another job.
                          Exactly, so Union people should be "thankful" instead of feeling "entitled" to have more.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                            I would like to hire you to do some work for me. And when the job is 95% complete and I am still
                            holding ~35% of your money (maybe more if I am a jerk and am extra slow in paying my subs) I
                            will elect to not pay you what we agreed to just because " I don't feel like it'.

                            You can take what I chose to pay you now that the work is done or not, but that is all I intend to pay.
                            Sounds fair to me.

                            Will you take me to court or be thankful you had the privilege of working for less than you bargained for
                            and walk away with your tail between your legs.
                            "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006

                            https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerToolInstitute

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                              Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                              I would like to hire you to do some work for me. And when the job is 95% complete and I am still
                              holding ~35% of your money (maybe more if I am a jerk and am extra slow in paying my subs) I
                              will elect to not pay you what we agreed to just because " I don't feel like it'.

                              You can take what I chose to pay you now that the work is done or not, but that is all I intend to pay.
                              Sounds fair to me.

                              Will you take me to court or be thankful you had the privilege of working for less than you bargained for
                              and walk away with your tail between your legs.
                              Bob, someone or something poisoned his mind towards Unions. He feels it is right to take from working folks who belong to Unions, but it's okay for other working folks such as tradesmen to pass along their rising costs. I still find his get another job answer very immature and telling of his life's experience. I enjoy the back and forth to a point, but none of it really matters. We are facing very serious problems with our economy and government. My real concerns and fears are not focused on Unions, folks who hate them and live in their own little world. I'd like to know how our country can survive as a service based economy with folks losing their jobs, homes and families? We are in big, big trouble here. I want working folks to earn good incomes so they can hire tradesmen. I want my neighbors to pay their mortgages and keep our property values in good standing. What I see is the exact opposite. How long can it go like this?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                                Originally posted by Flux View Post
                                That's very easy to answer, if I don't like my job anymore or what it entails...I quit and find another one that suits my needs. Whether I didn't like it before I was hired...5 years down the road..I will find something else.

                                It's not my place to tell the company how things are going to be, unless it's an issue with my own personal safety.

                                I agree that it is not a workers place to tell a company how to run their business. All both parties have to do is honor their end of the contract.

                                Its basic contract law. You do what you say you would I signed on to 6 months ago, that is what I have problem with be it a bargaining unit contract with management or a contract with a supplier or vendor.

                                It's not your place to tell your employer how things are going to be with safety either. OSHA or some other agency sets the regulations that the employer and employee must adhere to. Enforcement is also OSHA's job, not you, a union, or any other employee group. You can file a compliant and have OSHA do an inspection, but I don't believe you have the authority to force an employer to do anything related to safety. You can however quit and go find another job if you don't like the working conditions, you have that right.

                                If you don't have a contract you are basically a day laborer, no matter what you do.
                                You can quit or you can be fired any day of the week no warning, no harm, no foul.
                                Nothing wrong with that if that is the rules you start under and have agreed to.
                                "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006

                                https://www.youtube.com/user/PowerToolInstitute

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