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Made in the USA and Unions

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  • #61
    Re: Made in the USA and Unions

    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
    Bob, someone or something poisoned his mind towards Unions. He feels it is right to take from working folks who belong to Unions, but it's okay for other working folks such as tradesmen to pass along their rising costs. I still find his get another job answer very immature and telling of his life's experience. I enjoy the back and forth to a point, but none of it really matters. We are facing very serious problems with our economy and government. My real concerns and fears are not focused on Unions, folks who hate them and live in their own little world. I'd like to know how our country can survive as a service based economy with folks losing their jobs, homes and families? We are in big, big trouble here. I want working folks to earn good incomes so they can hire tradesmen. I want my neighbors to pay their mortgages and keep our property values in good standing. What I see is the exact opposite. How long can it go like this?
    True. If we can't even agree that we have a problem in this country that is way bigger than this union/non-union issue or that of organizing or union busting, then we are doomed. When we put those not so critical issues aside and pull together for our common good, then we will have a chance of restoring this countries pride.

    There is a reason he is biased against unions. What it is I don't know or if it matters. People are entitled to their views and opinions. I don't fault him or you for your positions on this matter.

    My participation on this forum was more frequent before all this bickering started. Now I find it aggravating to even check in as all I read
    is the two of you defending your positions. And I think it has moved others away too. So now that this is a political forum and no longer a Woodworking forum as it was when I joined many years ago, I will do as Flux suggests and move on. I'll check in from time to time, and I'll try to hold my tongue and not get drawn into your squabble as I have the past couple days (I thought I was doing real good at staying out of this BS). Its just not what I come here for. So you two have at it. I'll be copying the mail occasionally whilst I enjoy myself elsewhere on the WWW. I can listen to this union and political crap all day at work. I used to come here to get away from all that and converse with some real intelligent people about other matters like dovetails and leaky faucets.
    Last edited by Bob D.; 11-06-2011, 04:50 PM.
    "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
    John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Made in the USA and Unions

      Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
      True. If we can't even agree that we have a problem in this country that is way bigger than this union/non-union issue or that of organizing or union busting, then we are doomed. When we put those not so critical issues aside and pull together for our common good, then we will have a chance of restoring this countries pride.
      Agreed! The issues of benefits and raises while important to the individual pale in comparison to the "critical issuses". I'm sure the people in greece were happy little piggies all these years, never giving a thought to the future. Well the future is here for them and it will be here for us as well. I wish there was a grand plan to address the most critical issues in order to save our country. I think we have given enough attention to lindsey lohan and the kardashians! The weather and mother nature is going to do what it will and always has, so how about moving forward to fix what we can? I would ask if the politicians get it, but they seem happy with business as usual. I don't smoke and I don't support sexual harassment, but is it really relevant to attack Cain years later for something that was supposed to be settled? Is the most important issue to attack a Presidential hopeful someone smoking on his campaign?

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Made in the USA and Unions

        Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
        I would like to hire you to do some work for me. And when the job is 95% complete and I am still
        holding ~35% of your money (maybe more if I am a jerk and am extra slow in paying my subs) I
        will elect to not pay you what we agreed to just because " I don't feel like it'.

        You can take what I chose to pay you now that the work is done or not, but that is all I intend to pay.
        Sounds fair to me.

        Will you take me to court or be thankful you had the privilege of working for less than you bargained for
        and walk away with your tail between your legs.
        Bob, if I wanted to join a Union or work for someone else, I wouldn't of CHOSE to be my own boss instead.

        We can play the "twist my argument" in our favorite all night long.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Made in the USA and Unions

          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
          Bob, someone or something poisoned his mind towards Unions.
          No Frank..it's that I'm NOT brainwashed by the Union rhetoric.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Made in the USA and Unions

            Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
            My participation on this forum was more frequent before all this bickering started. Now I find it aggravating to even check in as all I read
            is the two of you defending your positions.
            Place the blame squarely on yourself, as nobody here forced you to read this thread. You decided to interject yourself into this thread, and we should be allowed to express opposing views just like you have throughout. No reason to take your ball and go home..we all are not going to agree on the same things.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Made in the USA and Unions

              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
              Agreed! The issues of benefits and raises while important to the individual pale in comparison to the "critical issuses".
              All 50 states are spending more money than they are taking in...which means there are budget short falls. Didn't realize that doesn't fall in the critical category.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                Originally posted by Flux View Post
                All 50 states are spending more money than they are taking in...which means there are budget short falls. Didn't realize that doesn't fall in the critical category.
                Very good observation. Now try and connect the dots and figure out where they lead. The states have lost tax revenue from businesses and jobs gone to mexico and the third world. They have lost income from manufacturing gone the same way. They are paying medical and college to mention just a couple of things for millions of illegals and folks on state assistance. Now here's the part you will completely ignore but I'll say it anyway. The states can only cutback on budget spending only so much and that includes wages and services. Just like a big family not pulling in much money, they can tighten their belts and do with less. But! Unless there is a national fix to bring back businesses and jobs for Americans by the millions, it won't help! You can cry about Unions all you want but they are not the cause of budget deficits nationwide. When the standard of living of the middle class is weakened as is happening, it will reach a point where most small businesses will suffer. It is cheaper to pay a state Union worker benefits you yourself can't afford because you chose the wrong job, than to pay for their unemployment. Wise up and educate yourself to the big picture of how our economy works. There is only so much wealth in the world, think of it as fish in a pond. We are fishing with small worms and small hooks, whle china is fishing with dynamite and cleaning out the pond.

                Critical? You are darn right the situation is critical and Unions or not won't change it. Now you think about how our economy will improve without millions of jobs and businesses, and how insignificant Unions are in the big picture. I expect a short response that has nothing to do with my post but that's alright, we are here to exchange thoughts not educate. Frank

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                  Originally posted by Flux View Post
                  No Frank..it's that I'm NOT brainwashed by the Union rhetoric.
                  Then stop crying about the benfits their members have that you can't afford. You want to be your own boss? Great, be a man and stop complaining, or quit and get another job which you seem to think is so easy.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                    Then stop crying about the benfits their members have that you can't afford. You want to be your own boss? Great, be a man and stop complaining, or quit and get another job which you seem to think is so easy.
                    Just one question Frank...did you puff your chest out when you typed that? lol

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                      Very good observation. Now try and connect the dots and figure out where they lead. The states have lost tax revenue from businesses and jobs gone to mexico and the third world. They have lost income from manufacturing gone the same way. They are paying medical and college to mention just a couple of things for millions of illegals and folks on state assistance. Now here's the part you will completely ignore but I'll say it anyway. The states can only cutback on budget spending only so much and that includes wages and services. Just like a big family not pulling in much money, they can tighten their belts and do with less. But! Unless there is a national fix to bring back businesses and jobs for Americans by the millions, it won't help! You can cry about Unions all you want but they are not the cause of budget deficits nationwide. When the standard of living of the middle class is weakened as is happening, it will reach a point where most small businesses will suffer. It is cheaper to pay a state Union worker benefits you yourself can't afford because you chose the wrong job, than to pay for their unemployment. Wise up and educate yourself to the big picture of how our economy works. There is only so much wealth in the world, think of it as fish in a pond. We are fishing with small worms and small hooks, whle china is fishing with dynamite and cleaning out the pond.

                      Critical? You are darn right the situation is critical and Unions or not won't change it. Now you think about how our economy will improve without millions of jobs and businesses, and how insignificant Unions are in the big picture. I expect a short response that has nothing to do with my post but that's alright, we are here to exchange thoughts not educate. Frank
                      How come you can't admit the Unions played a "role" in jobs leaving this country? Unions gave Wall street investors a reason to find a better return for their clients. If you want to talk facts...let's start right there.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                        Originally posted by Flux View Post
                        Just one question Frank...did you puff your chest out when you typed that? lol
                        Not nearly as much as you did every time you bragged about being your own boss and not needing a Union.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                          Originally posted by Flux View Post
                          How come you can't admit the Unions played a "role" in jobs leaving this country? Unions gave Wall street investors a reason to find a better return for their clients. If you want to talk facts...let's start right there.
                          Most of the jobs that left were minimum wage, nonUnion. Start there! Next you tell me where you would rather operate a business that pollutes and puts employees at risk of injury, here in the USA where you have to deal with the EPA and OSHA and the NLRB and Unions( I did not forget them), or some third world crap hole where people and the environment are worthless?

                          I don't think you understand the scope of damage done by the loss of all those businesses and jobs over the last forty or so years. The shift of businesses and jobs away from America, our wages and government oversight was not smart in my opinion. These powerful business people had no foresight and in return for short term profits and huge incomes they killed their consumer base. I've seen restaurants and other small businesses in my area that have been around over 80 years, close! The customers are broke. I'm going to rest, think on this a second and I'll reply tomorrow. Frank

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                            Not nearly as much as you did every time you bragged about being your own boss and not needing a Union.
                            Making a choice in life shouldn't be considered bragging.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                              Most of the jobs that left were minimum wage, nonUnion. Start there! Next you tell me where you would rather operate a business that pollutes and puts employees at risk of injury, here in the USA where you have to deal with the EPA and OSHA and the NLRB and Unions( I did not forget them), or some third world crap hole where people and the environment are worthless?

                              I don't think you understand the scope of damage done by the loss of all those businesses and jobs over the last forty or so years. The shift of businesses and jobs away from America, our wages and government oversight was not smart in my opinion. These powerful business people had no foresight and in return for short term profits and huge incomes they killed their consumer base. I've seen restaurants and other small businesses in my area that have been around over 80 years, close! The customers are broke. I'm going to rest, think on this a second and I'll reply tomorrow. Frank
                              THe Unions tout having wonderful pay and benefits, but yet they handcuffed these companies and forced them over seas or out of business, and in the end the Union employee heads to the un-employment line. The U.A.W. absolutely killed the Auto industry in this country with unreasonable and unrealistic burdens on GM - FORD and Chrysler. IMO the Unions are nothing more than a pyramid scheme...you have the officials up top collecting outlandish money along with pensions of retirees and people about to retire, and the Union employee still working, are left to pick up the pieces, and forced to come up with that money in their next contracts. Yes the Unions paved the way for better wages, but they absolutely drove up the cost of living for everyone else, in which it forces others to raise prices to coincide.

                              Now that we are broke and have absolutely no money to spend, and taxing the rich won't even scratch a dent into the deficit, we have to CUT!

                              Look at what happened to the housing market, that should be a perfect example right there. The Banks, the Builders, and the Realtors were loving life when prices were so high, and today they are crying the blues.

                              It boils down to simple math Frank...it's now unsustainable.

                              Now the Unions are going to be getting ticked off, because the states are going to go after their pensions in order to close the budget gaps.

                              Spending our way out of debt doesn't work Frank..and unfortunately for the Unions...they are going to pay a price for it.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Made in the USA and Unions

                                Originally posted by Flux View Post
                                THe Unions tout having wonderful pay and benefits, but yet they handcuffed these companies and forced them over seas or out of business, and in the end the Union employee heads to the un-employment line. The U.A.W. absolutely killed the Auto industry in this country with unreasonable and unrealistic burdens on GM - FORD and Chrysler. IMO the Unions are nothing more than a pyramid scheme...you have the officials up top collecting outlandish money along with pensions of retirees and people about to retire, and the Union employee still working, are left to pick up the pieces, and forced to come up with that money in their next contracts. Yes the Unions paved the way for better wages, but they absolutely drove up the cost of living for everyone else, in which it forces others to raise prices to coincide.

                                Now that we are broke and have absolutely no money to spend, and taxing the rich won't even scratch a dent into the deficit, we have to CUT!

                                Look at what happened to the housing market, that should be a perfect example right there. The Banks, the Builders, and the Realtors were loving life when prices were so high, and today they are crying the blues.

                                It boils down to simple math Frank...it's now unsustainable.

                                Now the Unions are going to be getting ticked off, because the states are going to go after their pensions in order to close the budget gaps.

                                Spending our way out of debt doesn't work Frank..and unfortunately for the Unions...they are going to pay a price for it.
                                Actually with GM and Chrysler, Obama put the Union in front of the investors and tax payers to save U.A.W jobs and pensions. I'm sure this will be the way of the future and the Unions know it. If Obama is going to have a chance in 2012, he will need the Union and he knows it.

                                Mark
                                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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