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  • #16
    Re: Township rules

    You duped yourself by not checking HOA/township/city rules. It sucks, I know I would be pissed if I made a mistake like yours.

    Unless you have deep pockets, you have a choice to either conform or move to someplace without the clubhouse rules.
    Last edited by masterbeavis; 11-18-2011, 07:35 PM.
    We don't have preventative maintenance around here, we have CRISIS MANAGEMENT!

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Township rules

      Originally posted by masterbeavis View Post
      Unless you have deep pockets, you have a choice to either conform or move to someplace without the clubhouse rules.
      Not exactly true. We here in Pennsylvania have already overturned many laws that were in preemption that were conflicting with state law when it came to firearms. It didn't take lawyers either to get these preemption's over-turned.

      I see it differently, these Jurisdictions have a choice...follow Federal law or be sued.

      We as citizens shouldn't be afraid of what others perceive the law to be, and be forced to not move into a community because of it. For me personally, I'm not a sheep and will speak up if civil liberties are being infringed upon.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Township rules

        Originally posted by Flux View Post
        No state can infringe on the 14th amendment (section 1) which states - No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

        Which means I have the right to move anywhere I please and be self employed and no jurisdiction, township, or state can infringe upon those rights. Being self employed, I have the right to put up a safe structure by town code because it is business related.

        I also have the right to pursuit life, liberty, and happiness which is in our Declaration of Independence.

        If a motorcycle gang is riding their motorcycles up and down the street between the legal noise ordinance hours, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do, as it infringes upon their first amendment rights.

        I suggest you pick up a copy of the constitution and read it.
        Flux, I feel for you, as I stated earlier. Unfortunately constitutional law is thrown out the window when you move into planned communities. Its the old saying of "buyer be aware". When you buy into a Township, HOA, Golf Club etc. You buy in with the implied understandings that your becoming a member of the group. The group has rules. You have to follow those rules.

        Now on a side note, if you have the money you should build down and under. I can take you houses off the Coast of Orange county where they have 20,000-30,000 sg.ft underground garages, workshops etc. all because the Coastal commission puts restrictions on houses withing two miles of an ocean view regarding height, width etc...

        Theres an old saying, "a good hammer, a roll of duct tape and a credit card will fix just about any problem thrown your way"

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Township rules

          Originally posted by masterbeavis View Post
          You duped yourself by not checking HOA/township/city rules. It sucks, I know I would be pissed if I made a mistake like yours.

          Unless you have deep pockets, you have a choice to either conform or move to someplace without the clubhouse rules.
          H.O.A. has nothing to do with this in my case...this is all township rules. Unfortunately, I checked all my local jurisdictions and they all have similar rules, but not 1 has the home business rule that I'm going to have. Most are more forgiving when it comes to property line allowances, but those area's I couldn't afford, as it was simply out of my budget.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Township rules

            Originally posted by Watersurgeon View Post
            Unfortunately constitutional law is thrown out the window when you move into planned communities. Its the old saying of "buyer be aware". When you buy into a Township, HOA, Golf Club etc. You buy in with the implied understandings that your becoming a member of the group. The group has rules. You have to follow those rules.
            Township rules and Golf club rules is not comparing apples to apples. Townships have to follow state laws, and there for federal laws trump state laws, so in essence a township can't make up their own laws that don't jive with the law of the land. People can twist and turn it anyway they wish, but in the end the Constitution is the trump card...it simply beats everyone. To say Constitutional law gets thrown out the window is simply not true, and I would like to see some examples of that actually happening.

            Lets recap real quick what my issues are and got me hot..

            1. The township wants me to fill out paperwork about my self employed business. The township manager absolutely told me what I was not allowed to do (funny how the "what I'm allowed to do" never came out of his mouth first..I had to ask) and IMO those rules that are in that township that I read so far, are seriously flirting with my civil liberties.

            2. I will put an accessory structure on my property that is within their guidelines, and will go for a variance if need be through the zoning board. However, their rules about structures and home businesses is flirting with my civil liberties of having the right to earn a living. The township manager wasn't really interested in my feelings...it was more of " This is OUR rules of the township, and we will infringe upon your civil liberties if we feel like it".

            Everything else like "No trash cans" and the other fodder was for typical ***** fest..and nothing more. I never once brought up noise and the other off topic things that have been said here. My main focus is my right to earn a living, and it will not be infringed upon by any township or jurisdiction. If the State of Pennsylvania doesn't infringe upon my civil liberties..a 1 horse township out in bumble f*ck won't either....and that's my point.

            Before I bought this house, I told the builder if I couldn't have my truck in this development...it was a deal breaker and I walk. That was taken care of before I signed anything, and come to find out, they were partially wrong, because anything over 10,000 GVWR..I would of been illegal with my truck. My cousin who is also a self employed Plumber lives in the first face of this exact development, and his truck isn't as big as mine, but he's been living there from the start, and told me that there are many many contractors living in the development. However...I know darn well my cousin didn't go to the township to let them know what he was doing.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Township rules

              Flux,

              I do have a copy of the "Constitution", read it often and I know my rights, apparently better than you do. I don't know why you "attacked" me, I'm only stating the obvious and it has nothing whatsoever to do with "Elitism" as you want to think. It has everything to do with having your rights as a homeowner infringed upon... as you state. Every citizen has the right to participate in the establishment of laws and rules which protect their homes and their investments. That's what ordinances and zoning laws are all about. They do not have the right to discriminate because of race or religion.. but they certainly have the right to zone against some types of buildings, businesses, etc.

              Knowing one's "rights" is not always clear and obviously knowing your responsibilities is even harder. According to you I can move next to you, play my radio, erect whatever structure I like, keep whatever animals I like, and simply do whatever I like, without any regard whatsoever to you and your family. That of course would not be "neighborly" and I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, you would be screaming loudly.

              I did say that you have the right to pursue what you think is wrong in the local city council... that is YOUR right. As far as the noise, it was you who brought it up, complaining about the "diesel" engine ordinance... perhaps I misinterpreted your complaint though.

              Whatever; you seem to often take the stance that you are always being infringed upon. I don't really understand that, but apparently you think that your rights are more important than others. Good luck with that!

              I think we should just agree that we generally disagree... that IS also your Right.

              CWS
              Last edited by CWSmith; 11-18-2011, 09:14 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Township rules

                Just for kicks how would you feel after moving into your new home the neighbors on each side of you decided to start breeding dogs and building dog pens in their backyards? You wouldn't mind if the guy across the street desides to buy an 18 wheeler and park it out front but leaves every morning at 3am? Oh and he usually leaves the trailer except on sunday mornings. Then theres the teenagers in the house that backs up to your property that found a couple storage building on craigslist and decided it would be cool to make a hangout for their friends and a place to play the drums. Dontforget about the people a few houses down that have had a "POD" in the front yard for a couple years. LOL

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Township rules

                  Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                  Just for kicks how would you feel after moving into your new home the neighbors on each side of you decided to start breeding dogs and building dog pens in their backyards? You wouldn't mind if the guy across the street desides to buy an 18 wheeler and park it out front but leaves every morning at 3am? Oh and he usually leaves the trailer except on sunday mornings. Then theres the teenagers in the house that backs up to your property that found a couple storage building on craigslist and decided it would be cool to make a hangout for their friends and a place to play the drums. Dontforget about the people a few houses down that have had a "POD" in the front yard for a couple years. LOL
                  Flux, if you were a reasonable man and a "good" neighbor you would listen to The Master! Your attitude of not caring about your neighbors leads me to wonder why you would want to live near anyone? I don't need to have my head up my neighbor's butt and know every detail of their lives, but I do care about who lives next door and what kind of people they are! I am a concerned and helpful neighbor, I'll go out of my way to help folks, but that doesn't mean I'll put up with a scumbag who doesn't care about the noise he makes , dangerous pets he keeps, or the possible infringement to my pursuit of happiness his actions cause. Residential zoned usually prohibits commercial businesses because of the high volume of traffic and people they can draw. Now to someone who doesn't care it's not a big deal, but to the people who are trying to park where they live, or have their children play outside, heavy traffic and strangers are a problem. Seriously Flux, you can wave The Constitution all you want and make legal arguments all day, but if you don't care about the people around you no one will give a dam about you or your family. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you talk about being a christian? Christ was not out for himself, he put others before himself. If your new neighbors had wanted to live with what you describe, they would have lived in a commercial zone. I can see it now, a nice quiet neighborhood suddenly filled with folks who don't live there parking their cars and trucks so they can do business. Why not make it complete with prostitutes, and drug dealers. Great place to raise kids. Talk about the "Me" generation.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Township rules

                    Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                    Flux,

                    I do have a copy of the "Constitution", read it often and I know my rights, apparently better than you do. I don't know why you "attacked" me, I'm only stating the obvious and it has nothing whatsoever to do with "Elitism" as you want to think. It has everything to do with having your rights as a homeowner infringed upon... as you state. Every citizen has the right to participate in the establishment of laws and rules which protect their homes and their investments. That's what ordinances and zoning laws are all about. They do not have the right to discriminate because of race or religion.. but they certainly have the right to zone against some types of buildings, businesses, etc.

                    Knowing one's "rights" is not always clear and obviously knowing your responsibilities is even harder. According to you I can move next to you, play my radio, erect whatever structure I like, keep whatever animals I like, and simply do whatever I like, without any regard whatsoever to you and your family. That of course would not be "neighborly" and I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, you would be screaming loudly.

                    I did say that you have the right to pursue what you think is wrong in the local city council... that is YOUR right. As far as the noise, it was you who brought it up, complaining about the "diesel" engine ordinance... perhaps I misinterpreted your complaint though.

                    Whatever; you seem to often take the stance that you are always being infringed upon. I don't really understand that, but apparently you think that your rights are more important than others. Good luck with that!

                    I think we should just agree that we generally disagree... that IS also your Right.

                    CWS
                    This is not about my rights as a home owner...I'm not sure why you or anyone else is twisting this debate in that direction. I'm talking about my rights as a citizen and the right to "earn a living". I said before the other things I was b*tching about..was just that...b*itching. The reason why Diesel was brought up came from the Township manager himself...that my "work truck" couldn't be diesel, but yet my personal vehicle could...now does that make any sense to you? I don't even have a diesel, so it's a non issue with me and my situation. He was just simply stating rules when it comes to work vehicles, and they contradict themselves by saying "No" to work vehicles, but "yes" to personal vehicles.

                    You're also twisting what I said about zoning when it comes to structures. I'm allowed to have a structure...the issue is what that structure is for...and thats the concern I have with the township. They can't stop me for having a structure (as long as it fits) to store my tools, work equipment..etc. I'm not storing any hazardous materials or anything illegal...the township manager was trying to find a reason for not allowing me to have it for my "business", and I take issue with that. With the way it was worded to me from him (township manger), he was flirting with infringing upon my civil rights to earn a living by keeping me from having a structure for my tools and equipment on my own personal property.

                    The 18% coverage and the distance off the back line is nothing more than complaining out loud on my part, and has nothing to do with Constitutional law.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Township rules

                      Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                      Just for kicks how would you feel after moving into your new home the neighbors on each side of you decided to start breeding dogs and building dog pens in their backyards? You wouldn't mind if the guy across the street desides to buy an 18 wheeler and park it out front but leaves every morning at 3am? Oh and he usually leaves the trailer except on sunday mornings. Then theres the teenagers in the house that backs up to your property that found a couple storage building on craigslist and decided it would be cool to make a hangout for their friends and a place to play the drums. Dontforget about the people a few houses down that have had a "POD" in the front yard for a couple years. LOL
                      To be honest with you Master, I could honestly care less what anyone does as long as they don't get in my business or come on my property. If someone wants to live like an A$$hole...I don't care, as I don't live my life worrying about what other people do. I'm the type of person who wants to be left alone and not bothered by "who's doing what" in the neighborhood. As long as my personal safety for me and my wife are fine..there will never be a response from me.

                      If Led Zeppelin themselves wanted to play at my next door neighbor's house until 5am in the morning on a work night, I might just join the crowd and go over and drink a beer and watch the show. If my other neighbor wants 20 cars parked on his property with storage sheds all over the place...more power to him. As long as trees and privacy fences are made...I don't have to look at it if i don't want too.

                      I just don't let petty things like that bother me.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Township rules

                        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                        Flux, if you were a reasonable man and a "good" neighbor you would listen to The Master! Your attitude of not caring about your neighbors leads me to wonder why you would want to live near anyone? I don't need to have my head up my neighbor's butt and know every detail of their lives, but I do care about who lives next door and what kind of people they are! I am a concerned and helpful neighbor, I'll go out of my way to help folks, but that doesn't mean I'll put up with a scumbag who doesn't care about the noise he makes , dangerous pets he keeps, or the possible infringement to my pursuit of happiness his actions cause. Residential zoned usually prohibits commercial businesses because of the high volume of traffic and people they can draw. Now to someone who doesn't care it's not a big deal, but to the people who are trying to park where they live, or have their children play outside, heavy traffic and strangers are a problem. Seriously Flux, you can wave The Constitution all you want and make legal arguments all day, but if you don't care about the people around you no one will give a dam about you or your family. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you talk about being a christian? Christ was not out for himself, he put others before himself. If your new neighbors had wanted to live with what you describe, they would have lived in a commercial zone. I can see it now, a nice quiet neighborhood suddenly filled with folks who don't live there parking their cars and trucks so they can do business. Why not make it complete with prostitutes, and drug dealers. Great place to raise kids. Talk about the "Me" generation.
                        Frank...scroll up to my response to CWS...this discussion is getting twisted the wrong way here, which is very typical of message boards. I am making a legal constitutional argument on my right to "earn a living" and nothing else. Everything else you said has no bearing on my original post in this thread. Half I was complaining to hear myself complain and share a story, and the other half was serious on the infringement part of my rights. I mean this is page 3 and we are talking about rock bands, parking cars on lawns, and prostitutes! lol

                        Btw..if my wife doesn't give it up anymore...what's wrong with a few "working girls" strolling the neighborhood?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Township rules

                          Originally posted by Flux View Post
                          To be honest with you Master, I could honestly care less what anyone does as long as they don't get in my business or come on my property. If someone wants to live like an A$$hole...I don't care, as I don't live my life worrying about what other people do. I'm the type of person who wants to be left alone and not bothered by "who's doing what" in the neighborhood. As long as my personal safety for me and my wife are fine..there will never be a response from me.

                          If Led Zeppelin themselves wanted to play at my next door neighbor's house until 5am in the morning on a work night, I might just join the crowd and go over and drink a beer and watch the show. If my other neighbor wants 20 cars parked on his property with storage sheds all over the place...more power to him. As long as trees and privacy fences are made...I don't have to look at it if i don't want too.

                          I just don't let petty things like that bother me.
                          You might not hafta look at it but you would hafta smell it and hear it. Have a party with friends over and all your smelling is dog shiot while sitting on your new deck.......nice huh? What was that? I cant hear you......too many dogs barking. They didn't make rules because you were moving there did they? You must be moving to a community that supports and wants these rules.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Township rules

                            Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                            You might not hafta look at it but you would hafta smell it and hear it. Have a party with friends over and all your smelling is dog shiot while sitting on your new deck.......nice huh? What was that? I cant hear you......too many dogs barking. They didn't make rules because you were moving there did they? You must be moving to a community that supports and wants these rules.
                            Growing up we lived right next to a pig farm...do you know what that's like? I might as well lived next to a sewer plant, because for 20 years we had massive fly problems and a stench that's still embedded in my brain after all this time. When my father's development was built, the neighborhood complained to the township all the time about the pig farm...except a few (including us), and the township told everyone the farmer had every right to be there. We all didn't "have" to buy a brand new house next to a pig farm. That's the way the law should be. Because 1 person doesn't like something, we don't need to trample on another's constitutional rights to get them out of there.

                            But let's get back on track here...stupid rules whether I agree or not is 1 thing. Infringement upon my civil rights to earn a living is a whole separate issue...and that's my beef. We have 3 pages now of stupid rules either we agree or disagree with. Do you think we can get another 3 pages now on the 14th amendment, and what it means to us to respect everyones civil liberties and not try to oppress someone from making a living? I doubt it.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Township rules

                              Originally posted by Flux View Post
                              Growing up we lived right next to a pig farm...do you know what that's like? I might as well lived next to a sewer plant, because for 20 years we had massive fly problems and a stench that's still embedded in my brain after all this time. When my father's development was built, the neighborhood complained to the township all the time about the pig farm...except a few (including us), and the township told everyone the farmer had every right to be there. We all didn't "have" to buy a brand new house next to a pig farm. That's the way the law should be. Because 1 person doesn't like something, we don't need to trample on another's constitutional rights to get them out of there.

                              But let's get back on track here...stupid rules whether I agree or not is 1 thing. Infringement upon my civil rights to earn a living is a whole separate issue...and that's my beef. We have 3 pages now of stupid rules either we agree or disagree with. Do you think we can get another 3 pages now on the 14th amendment, and what it means to us to respect everyones civil liberties and not try to oppress someone from making a living? I doubt it.
                              No one is stopping you from making a living they are just telling you you cant have a warehouse in a residential area. Not a big deal and not uncommon.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Township rules

                                Originally posted by TheMaster View Post
                                No one is stopping you from making a living they are just telling you you cant have a warehouse in a residential area. Not a big deal and not uncommon.
                                See now...that's a tricky situation there. If I'm storing fittings, and small material, am I operating a warehouse? Technically I'm stocking material to use for future customers that I'm leaving my home for.

                                But, I'm still waiting on this paperwork from the township that I have to fill out for my business. I have no idea what questions are on it, but I will definitely share in this thread once I receive it. I might be over-blowing this matter because of the rule and what the township manager said to me. But like..common sense should of prevailed for this guy, cause I'm a Plumbing & Heating contractor...not ferguson enterprises.

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