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  • #16
    Re: Keystone pipeline project

    Yes, I am sure about that.... Yes, they have paid some of it... and they lobbied both parties and even the higher Federal and State courts to have the total sum substantially reduced. Near the end of GW's administration, it was substantially reduced, as I recall. Over the decades since the Exxon Valdez accident they have fought one court case after another, until many of the reciprients have simply died off... receiving very little of the money's owed to them. And, while they have only paid a fraction of the original claims, they are still managed to write off (deduct it from thier tax levy) much of that and also get tax encentives and outright government grants.

    Yes Franki, we NEED jobs... no question about it. But at what point do we all wake up and stop giving everything away to Corporate America? Every single day we are bombarded by API propaganda... to the point where people like you are totally believing it. The oil companies are stealing us blind, have most, if not all, of the Republican party in their back pockets. Listen... my exployer was (and is) a member of the API... that organization is so politically bent that they will go to whatever means necessary to keep their profits at maximum. They don't give two-cents about American jobs, the American worker, or the landowner and communities that they are trying to overtake. We, the people, are no better treated than the Oklahoma tribes of a century ago. Here in NY, and certainly in PA, they are doing everything they can to screw us over.

    They take your land, give you a paltry check, and then keep absolutely secret the chemicals and processes that they're pumping into the ground. AND, the EPA has absolutely nothing they can do about it...... Thank you very much to G.W. Bush and the Republican congress of the time. Rules were made that totally keep the EPA out of the equation; they have no jurisdiction over the natural gas/fracking and the State's simply don't have the money or the manpower to deal with it.... hence in NY, we've been able to maintain a moritorium on "fracking" until investigation is completed. But even with that, there is massive pressure by purchased politicians to proceed with this at once. (The landowner contracts with these gas drilling companies also allows them to simply "walk away" at any time... the gas is thiers, but the chemicals, the junk from piping, rigs, etc, the ruined fields and wooded areas, and any and all sludge ponds are the sole responsibility of the landowners, once the oil/gas companies abandon the sites.

    (So it is with all of the closed and abandoned industrial sites/factories, dumps, etc. through out NY and Pennsylvania and probably most other states. These companies don't clean up their lead, mercury, cadmium, or any of the varieties of chemicals they leave behind... we the people get to do that!)

    The PROBLEM of our economy may well be jobs, but in actuality the problem with the country is that nobody is paying taxes, except a comparibly-small number of tax payers. People loose their jobs, there goes the revenues from their paychecks. As we have recently seen, only 1/3 of American corporations are paying any taxes at all; AND, the super rich are paying only a fraction of what they should be paying. As long as the Republicans continue to give tax incentives to corporations who "off-shore" there is little hope. Presently they are holding the middle-class hostage... saying that if they don't get their way with everything, they aren't going to employ! So, NO EPA, no citizens rights, no community mandates, no regulation whatsoever.

    So... you want these guys to have "eminent domain", NO regulation, or whatever. Next you'll be telling me that the wages need to be cut, holidays and vacations are a wasteful burden, and OSHA is only another governmental bit of nonsense that blocks free-enterprise and is anti-capitalism. At what point do you all just enslave yourselves and your families and future generations to the great Corporate lie, and the politicians that they are paying for? Sounds a lot like Nazism to me.... no unions, no protection, no choices for the people or preservation for their property! Everything for the Corporate Fatherland.

    CWS

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Keystone pipeline project

      Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
      Yes, I am sure about that.... Yes, they have paid some of it... and they lobbied both parties and even the higher Federal and State courts to have the total sum substantially reduced. Near the end of GW's administration, it was substantially reduced, as I recall. Over the decades since the Exxon Valdez accident they have fought one court case after another, until many of the reciprients have simply died off... receiving very little of the money's owed to them. And, while they have only paid a fraction of the original claims, they are still managed to write off (deduct it from thier tax levy) much of that and also get tax encentives and outright government grants.

      Yes Franki, we NEED jobs... no question about it. But at what point do we all wake up and stop giving everything away to Corporate America? Every single day we are bombarded by API propaganda... to the point where people like you are totally believing it. The oil companies are stealing us blind, have most, if not all, of the Republican party in their back pockets. Listen... my exployer was (and is) a member of the API... that organization is so politically bent that they will go to whatever means necessary to keep their profits at maximum. They don't give two-cents about American jobs, the American worker, or the landowner and communities that they are trying to overtake. We, the people, are no better treated than the Oklahoma tribes of a century ago. Here in NY, and certainly in PA, they are doing everything they can to screw us over.

      They take your land, give you a paltry check, and then keep absolutely secret the chemicals and processes that they're pumping into the ground. AND, the EPA has absolutely nothing they can do about it...... Thank you very much to G.W. Bush and the Republican congress of the time. Rules were made that totally keep the EPA out of the equation; they have no jurisdiction over the natural gas/fracking and the State's simply don't have the money or the manpower to deal with it.... hence in NY, we've been able to maintain a moritorium on "fracking" until investigation is completed. But even with that, there is massive pressure by purchased politicians to proceed with this at once. (The landowner contracts with these gas drilling companies also allows them to simply "walk away" at any time... the gas is thiers, but the chemicals, the junk from piping, rigs, etc, the ruined fields and wooded areas, and any and all sludge ponds are the sole responsibility of the landowners, once the oil/gas companies abandon the sites.

      (So it is with all of the closed and abandoned industrial sites/factories, dumps, etc. through out NY and Pennsylvania and probably most other states. These companies don't clean up their lead, mercury, cadmium, or any of the varieties of chemicals they leave behind... we the people get to do that!)

      The PROBLEM of our economy may well be jobs, but in actuality the problem with the country is that nobody is paying taxes, except a comparibly-small number of tax payers. People loose their jobs, there goes the revenues from their paychecks. As we have recently seen, only 1/3 of American corporations are paying any taxes at all; AND, the super rich are paying only a fraction of what they should be paying. As long as the Republicans continue to give tax incentives to corporations who "off-shore" there is little hope. Presently they are holding the middle-class hostage... saying that if they don't get their way with everything, they aren't going to employ! So, NO EPA, no citizens rights, no community mandates, no regulation whatsoever.

      So... you want these guys to have "eminent domain", NO regulation, or whatever. Next you'll be telling me that the wages need to be cut, holidays and vacations are a wasteful burden, and OSHA is only another governmental bit of nonsense that blocks free-enterprise and is anti-capitalism. At what point do you all just enslave yourselves and your families and future generations to the great Corporate lie, and the politicians that they are paying for? Sounds a lot like Nazism to me.... no unions, no protection, no choices for the people or preservation for their property! Everything for the Corporate Fatherland.

      CWS
      CWS, you always write well thought out and thorough posts so excuse me if my response is not as well organized. I know we are dancing with the devil here. We have been and will continue to be screwed by the republican party, democrats and powerful corporations, it is the nature of things. I don't want to sound like a defeatist but the alternatives are worse than the horrible scenario I layed out.
      You think the problem with our economy is loss of taxes resulting from loss of jobs? I disagree in part. There are multiple equally serious problems impacting our economy. Forty or so years of revenue paying businesses and former American based jobs leaving our country, government overspending to pay for everything from wars to programs we could simply not afford. We are the victims of government mismanagement and fraud on many levels. We are just now getting around to the problem of legislative inside trading! That's a disgrace and moral crime that resulted in untold damage to the American Public! In addition to our legislators who did not see the train wreck and are still not doing a darn thing to help the situation, we have a polulace that is preoccupied with electronics, sports, entertainment and everything But personal sacrifice and an attention span focused on our government, economy and other important issues.

      While we are debating these issues, a giant communist power grows stronger and the world grows more unstable. We need more than this pipeline, much more. Regarding the EPA and OSHA, much as they were created to serve our needs and the good of the country, in reality they have become a detriment. We have cleaned up polluted waters, scrubbed the airs and preserve the lands. We have made the workplace safer and protected the public, unfortunately we have done this at the cost of our economy. We have saved everything but the American worker. Big Oil is damaging our economy by raising the price of gasoline, heating oil , etc to the point of shifting consumer spending from other areas into their pocket. What choice do we have if we want to drive, heat our homes?

      CWS, I have lost any hope and any trust or faith in our political system. Things were gonna change with President Obama, but he and his democrat controlled congress did nothing! He has repeatedly lied about green jobs and creating jobs, and what he will do in the future. He does not deserve another term. I doubt a republican President will do much better, but why keep a do nothing? How can we expect to break the strangle hold of foreign oil, bring back jobs and turn any of this mess around with a national debt greater than sixteen trillion and growing? We are in serious trouble, the environment, wildlife and grand thoughts of the past must move aside. Frank

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Keystone pipeline project

        Franki,

        Respectfully, you and I are locked into different points of view... you fail to see the reasons that we are here, you fail to see that it has been thirty years of Republican domination in Washington that has put us into this situation. Though you clearly and rightly make an excellant examination of where we are today, you still refuse to see the path and the leaders responsible for the position that we find ourselves in.

        This nation of ours... YOUR country and mine, did not become a debtor nation until Ronald Reagan introduced his plan of "Reaganomics".... his "great shining city on the hill" that provided massive tax breaks to the upper echelons of our society. His vision of lowering the taxes on the rich, so that they could gorge themselves on the luxuries of life, and "WE, the people" would thus profit from the crumbs that would "trickle down" to us all. Under the Reagan administration, government expanded to a point of Royalty... just look at the Nancy and Ronny white house with it's gala affairs, it first time ever massive jet fleet, AirForce One being a montrous over expenditure of pure and enormous luxury. (One that so went over budget and took so long that dear old Ronny and Nancy actually had to leave the Whitehouse before it could be occupied.)

        Under the Reagan administration, U.S. companies were allowed to rob our pensions and thanks to Republican guidance and back scrubbing, $Billions of dollars were stolen from the American workforce and sent overseas. Hundreds of companies, moved factories south of the border. We sent millions in weapons to the middle east and to the Taliban fighters in Afganisitan and fully supported Saddam Hussien in his war against Iran and against the religious and political opposition in his own country. Through "College of the Americas", our military trained thousands of soldiers from S. American "dictator" countries in and effort to prop-up and sustain American business interests there.

        While Bill Clinton was in office, it was Republicans and thier propagandists that so burdoned the administration that hardly any other activity took place. Yet for all those years of investigation and legislative stonewalling, the "Whitewater" investigations revealed absolutely nothing but lies and accusations by the Republicans. In the end, about the only thing that could be proven was that Clinton "had a little something on the side." This great nation of ours was the joke of planet... with so much trouble in the world and in this country, all that could be revealed was that the President got a blow-job! Immoral for sure, earth-shattering it was not! But so much for the morality of America, who never minds killing or starving thousands, or blowing millions on bullets and bombs and basically screwing anyone with and opposite opinion... just don't let the president get caught with his zipper down!

        The Bush dynasty... where could we even begin with that? They have been knee deep in Middle East Oil since before GW was a twinkle in his daddy's eye. GW made nothing of himself, by himself... at every turn there is the hand of his father and the oil dynasty that backs him. The "industry" totally manipulated things in the first Gulf war and set everything in motion for the second. It openly planned, scaled, and manipulated the "shortages" that propelled GW into the Whitehouse (believe me, according to all of the oil industry reports of 1998 and 1999... the industry took serious steps to create that shortage, to hike and fix prices, and ensure that thier "man" would be the next President.

        Then, the squeezed the middle-east and every other country that was involve in oil exploration and export to the United States. The impoverishment of the Arab states and the whole political dynamic of the regions was fully engaged... and so GW was only the next pawn in the game.

        YES, Obama and the Democrats finally had control of the government in 2008... or so it seems; and for the first time in the hundred years of attempt, we finally got this country a health care system. But, the propaganda machine of the Republican party was so well "oiled" that there were obstacles all along the way. Instead of being able to enact cost controls with that, the Dems had to bow to the Republicans full-blown efforts to support the pharmaceutical, heath care, and insurance industries by unbridling their gluttony even further. Lies like "death panels" were widely shouted and spread by the Republican zeolots and Gun Control was openly screamed from every corner. (By the way, when do you guys think that is going to happen... there are more guns and bullets on the streets than ever before.... guess Obama's government must be a real scary issue, albeit without any control of weapons to the opposition... again, another right-wing lie.

        In the last three years, we've seen real strides in our military's support, in our health care issues, in our world-wide political esteem. The progress that has been made is almost record setting, with major businesses being helped through the Republican created financial crisis and with jobs being saved and education opportunities being expanded. Our borders are less porous than they were four years ago, and we've sent back a lot more illegals than under the previous eight years of the Repuplicans. We were able to respond quickly and decisively to the worst oil spill in the history of mankind, and in spite of all the opposition, lies, and foot dragging of the Republican party this country has stopped much of the "bleeding" of our financial resources.

        The problem of course is that the "younger child" hasn't been able to get the family out of the "high risk pool"... so now you're going to give the keys back to the Republicans. I guess I'll never be able to understand that kind of logic!

        So here we are on the close of another primary... where the Republicans are so back stabbing that they can't talk about the issues. Probably because they don't see any issues that are important to the American people. They see things that are important to the Corporations, like doing away with the EPA, OSHA, and every possible regulation necessary for the well-keeping of the people, the worker, and the communities in which we live. They tell us that they want a strong military, but they failed to pass any legislation that would save the military budget from the mandatory cuts that they, themselves had decided on. They'd rather see the military cut to shreds, rather than see their $Millionair contributors have to pay more than the 10 or 15 % many of them are presently taxed with. They don't want long-term medical care... not for us civilians and not for the military and not for the sacrifices that our men and women in uniform, with thier families, had to make. Damn, but that makes me really mad, because our military keeps that oil flowing for those jerk' asses.

        We are in a country that is so frought with problems that this current administration had no hand in. There are hundreds, if not thousands of issues that need to be addressed and should be talked about and in which the Republican candidates need to openly discuss in front of the American people. But what the hell is wrong with those people, when the prime objective is to "get Obama out of office". Obama himself isn't the problem, he didn't create the problem, and while he may not seem to many of you as the right guy for the job, the objective should be to fix the problems... not eliminate the man! That is prejudice, stupid, and just plain idiotic. Vote for the guy who can fix the issues... but none of them have a clue. "Obama out of office" is sort of like telling your wife you need a new truck because this one's got the sun shining on it. Have we ever seen a single election where the much touted objective was to get "Bush" or "Reagan" or anybody for that matter out of the office? NO! There seems to be a great fear, that this guy just might fix things and in so doing, somebody with millions might just well have to cough up another 5% or so. That some company might well have to pay taxes because it sent our jobs to China, or that some Congressman might have to give up is luxury yaght trip with one of the oil magnateds. Maybe it's just the fact that granny, might get to go to a annual health check-up or maybe your son or daughter might get some help while they're in college. Maybe you just don't like the idea of a guy with a wierd name being President. Hey, I've seen a lot of weird Presidents with ordinary names... I haven't been impressed too often.

        What we have here is a wonderful propaganda machine.... it makes us believe that those who try to help are our enemies. It makes us believe that that our jobs are gone because we either failed or that we are asking too much from our employers. It makes us hate the countries "over there"... you know those little yellow guys with the slanted eyes. It's always everybody elses fault, but NEVER ours, and NEVER our Corporate Greed.

        It is often said (and repeated not too long ago on this forum) that Democrats are always in the position of power when we go to war... and that is largely true. But if you look back over the last 125 years, you will find that just about all the wars and all of the financial collapses have occured as a result of Republican policies and mis-leadership. Whether it be the great Silver calamity in the 1870's or the Spanish American War, the First World War, the Depression, or World War II.... they have all been a result of Republican and/or American Industrialist mis-management. So yes, eventually the PEOPLE catch on and elect a Democrat, but usually that is too little, too late!

        It is said that "There are none so blind, as those who have eyes, but will not see".... and also that "Democracy was created from our wants, but government by our misdeeds!".... I think we are viewed and being played as though we are blind... and certainly that is largly true, because we fail to know our history, or even the matter of our present. We want to believe that it is somebody else's fault, and we are always at our ready to believe and hate when someone gives us an easy target. Corporate greed is trying to lessen the "government" that bridles them to doing the right thing. They have the money, they have the Republicans, and now, thanks to the Supreme Court, they have the power to spin the tale in any way they desire. All we have to do is listen and take them at their word and vote the point of view that they cast upon us. Lower taxes on Corporations and the rich has been the doctrine and the living conditions for just about thirty years now.... How is THAT working for you?

        CWS
        Last edited by CWSmith; 01-31-2012, 09:56 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Keystone pipeline project

          Originally posted by CWSmith View Post

          They take your land, give you a paltry check,
          and then keep absolutely secret the chemicals and processes that they're pumping into the ground. AND, the EPA has absolutely nothing they can do about it...... .

          (The landowner contracts with these gas drilling companies also allows them to simply "walk away" at any time... the gas is theirs, but the chemicals, the junk from piping, rigs, etc, the ruined fields and wooded areas, and any and all sludge ponds are the sole responsibility of the landowners, once the oil/gas companies abandon the sites.

          CWS
          first of all it is important for the land owners, or more correctly the ones holding the mineral rights, read the leases and the contracts they are entering into,

          one of the problems is few land owners still have there mineral rights intact, and those who own the mineral rights (by law) may have more rights than the one who owns the top soils,
          This is a legislative issues, if the laws need to be changed call (both state and federal) your congress man or Representative needs to be contacted and needs to introduce a bill to help protect the top land owners,

          the last lease I entered into had removal and restoration language in it, and who was responsible for that part of it, and it was not me, first one does not need to enter into the contract most of the time unless they want to,
          (my BIL had a number or wells on his land, and when he entered into a lease with a oil company, if he did not like some thing he and his lawyer, would draw a line through the objection, and sign by the line, and if needed add language, and if it was to there liking sign the contract and if the oil company did not like it, it was returned, for further review,

          When they drilled in our pasture (they did not develop the well) all that was left was one 5 gallon bucket and that most likely was just blown away by the wind never could tell where they punched the hole, since the bucket rusted away I do not even remember where the spot is besides a general area,

          pipe lines may be some what different, than wells and drilling, with Eminent domain
          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
          attributed to Samuel Johnson
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Keystone pipeline project

            Yes, CWS, we are miles apart on this one. I place blame on both parties with eyes wide open. The democrats took power and rather than address the economy, jobs, the trade deficit, the national deficit, they used the same old dirty washington tricks to pass their agenda! We don't need obamacare at a time when the country is faced with all these other problems. Cap and trade, are you kidding? Millions of Americans out of work, no plan to bring back businesses and jobs so they want to pass cap and trade? Talk about insanity! NO way CWS, both parties got us to this point and neither will save us. I don't dispute for a second the damage done by republicans but how can you possibly give a pass to the democrats? I say give it back to the republicans and let them prove they were full of hot air and baloney. We both know that more tax cuts will produce zero jobs, so let them accomplish nothing and then if we still have a country in four years hand it back to the democrats to destroy. Corporations are not people, and we the people are not who politicians represent. Our society is failing, we cannot wage war and we can't afford healthcare on the level it has been given, and we can't allow corporations such as big oil to control our economy. All those things are unacceptable if we expect to remain solvent. Show me where the money to pay for healthcare and hospitalization for illegals and the uninsured will come from, explain to me how we can continue to pay increases to big oil, open my blind eyes to the reality I am missing. People need to die for others to live. Industries like big oil that control essential commodities need to be regulated so they don't destroy us for their profit. That's what I'm seeing, unfortunately no one in government shares my visions. Frank

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Keystone pipeline project

              CWS, Don't just blame republicans, this rests on the shoulders of everyone in washington and we sitting here at our computers reading this. Its because of big government, on both side thats has caused this. When are people going to realize that its you and I in our HOME towns that need to solve these problems, not some idiot in a suit in washington. We are lacking common sense here, plain and simple. Could you imagine if we would have had to deal with this bull crap back when they proposed the transcontinental railroad and had to go through all this "planning" and red tape? The damn thing wouldnt have made it past Kentucky yet. Sorry, but there is going to be give and takes, thats life, freaking deal with it. Until someone finds that "magic bullet" for energy, guess what, its going to hurt someone and help someone else. Thats life, nothing is ever going to be "fair". That is my entire problem with politics, on both sides, they claim they want everything to be fair, level, even... LIFE IS NOT LIKE THAT! IT NEVER WILL BE! Quit selling me and everyone else snake oil that we all are going to be even, its just not the truth. Some people will go to the moon, some will scrub the toilets in the visitor center where people go look at pictures of the moon in a museum. If I hear "fair share" from one more person, I swear I'm going to jack them in the jaw. We are trying to cram all of our life styles into a single cookie cutter, it won't work, never will work, and we all will fall apart if it continues. The truth is that the more "control" that is pushed on us will cause us to fall apart as a country and a civilization. Look at history, the more control the top of governments/empires gained, the more the people distrusted its rulers. It eventually lead to thier own demise and they were crushed. But not only was the leader crushed, but the country itself. Look at the USA, it has changed from the simple rules of its founding to a complex mess of laws and regulations. All for what reason? Because we "need" to protect the "little guy"? No, its control because the government thinks you and I are to damn stupid to take care of ourselves, so we must be controled and governed by those that "know more" than you and I. And sorry, the example of those who leased thier land to a big bad oil/gas company and then they are unhappy with how it was "left" when the picked up shop.... they signed the lease did they not? Did they read it? They could have said "no" couldn't they have... oh wait, they as everyone else chased the dollar, just like that "evil corporation".

              When are we going to face the fact that government didnt "create" big bad evil corporations, neither did greedy CEOs, you and I did. We got cheap, we wanted nothing but the cheapest piece of **** we could buy. We wanted it now, we wanted it absolute bottom dollar and didn't care who sold it to us. Did we check the label to see where it was built? Nope, we didn't care who we bought it from either, whome ever was the cheapest, that is where we went. Loyalty didn't matter anymore, our personal pocket book meant more, so that is how we dictated our shopping habits.

              Look in the damn mirror people, WE caused this, quit blaming some dipshit from washington, and quit thinking they will fix it. Get governance back to a state level so YOU can actually control it.

              AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, sorry for the rant, but I'm sick of the damn finger pointing, yes government is part of the problem, but we create the government every November, so its our own fault if you ask me. My biggest problem with government is entitlements and regulations. Regulations should be up to each state, plain and simple, federal government has no reason to be involved. Entitlements, dont get me started!

              Flat out, this pipe line should have NOTHING to do with Washington, this should firmly be handled by those states affected by the pipe line, not the damn President for God's sake!

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Keystone pipeline project

                I understand all of your points of view...when I can find the time, I'll try to answer in kind. But in the meantime, here's a bit of something interesting, that though not directly related to the pipeline, does have quite a bit to do with the "Republicans" and their industry connections, IMO:

                'Gasland' Journalists Arrested At Hearing By Order Of House Republicans (UPDATES)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Keystone pipeline project

                  Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                  I understand all of your points of view...when I can find the time, I'll try to answer in kind. But in the meantime, here's a bit of something interesting, that though not directly related to the pipeline, does have quite a bit to do with the "Republicans" and their industry connections, IMO:

                  'Gasland' Journalists Arrested At Hearing By Order Of House Republicans (UPDATES)
                  CWS, thank you for posting this link. I think there was a clear abuse of power, the victim was not in the good graces of the republicans!
                  The video on "fracking" was very informative and I was surprised that the expert sang the praises of this technique. Seems a lot of the problems that arise from fracking are not the technology but rather human error, failing to follow proper protocol and of course subpar casings to prevent leakage. Frank

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Keystone pipeline project

                    Originally posted by Flux View Post
                    I'm definitely for the pipeline for every single positive reason one can think of, and for Obama to go against the Unions on this one to appease the E.P.A. & the tree huggers is mind boggling.

                    What's even worse is..Obama gave Brazil $2Billion to drill so we can buy that oil, when it turn they are going to sell it to the Chinese.

                    I don't care how or what...I want to get away from depending on foreign oil for the majority of our consumption. The day we drill for our own oil, is the day oil prices in the middle east drop drastically.


                    We have enough oil right here we can tap into...so let's do it.
                    Burn up their oil first.
                    Think of how nice it will be when the rest of the world is choking out and we can then go over to start using ours.

                    Never happen...Too intelegent...World economy/Illegal labor dragging qualty of life down.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Keystone pipeline project

                      Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
                      Burn up their oil first.
                      Think of how nice it will be when the rest of the world is choking out and we can then go over to start using ours.

                      Never happen...Too intelegent...World economy/Illegal labor dragging qualty of life down.
                      Sadly when that happens we will GIVE them ours and pay for the shipping.

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Keystone pipeline project

                        Originally posted by drtyhands View Post
                        Burn up their oil first.
                        Think of how nice it will be when the rest of the world is choking out and we can then go over to start using ours.

                        Never happen...Too intelegent...World economy/Illegal labor dragging quality of life down.
                        I under stand that concept, but the problem is when a supply problem happens they say it takes 10 years to get our oil flowing, if the striate is closed, I think 10 years is going to be a little late, for the consumer or the economy, (look how long this pipe line is getting drug out).
                        If that is the plan then we need to have an incentive to have wells that are on standby, and be able to be put in to action in a moments notice, and that most likely will not happen by the goodness of the oil company's heart, (how many of you would keep a factory on the ready just in case china decides to stop shipping to us), but the problem is we do need to be able to keep a reasonable flow of oil or our country grinds to a halt, (we return back to the early 1900's with out the infrastructure to support the change),
                        so how many of you have a horse and wagon for you plumbing "truck".
                        how many live in walking or bicycle distance of work?
                        how many have a grocery store in walking distance?
                        have oil and lamps for light?
                        a nice wood cook stove?
                        a way of heating with out electricity?
                        and the list goes on,

                        even if we lost 50% of the oil coming in, we would be in a world of hurt,
                        Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                        attributed to Samuel Johnson
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Keystone pipeline project

                          Originally posted by BHD View Post
                          I under stand that concept, but the problem is when a supply problem happens they say it takes 10 years to get our oil flowing, if the striate is closed, I think 10 years is going to be a little late, for the consumer or the economy, (look how long this pipe line is getting drug out).
                          If that is the plan then we need to have an incentive to have wells that are on standby, and be able to be put in to action in a moments notice, and that most likely will not happen by the goodness of the oil company's heart, (how many of you would keep a factory on the ready just in case china decides to stop shipping to us), but the problem is we do need to be able to keep a reasonable flow of oil or our country grinds to a halt, (we return back to the early 1900's with out the infrastructure to support the change),
                          so how many of you have a horse and wagon for you plumbing "truck".
                          how many live in walking or bicycle distance of work?
                          how many have a grocery store in walking distance?
                          have oil and lamps for light?
                          a nice wood cook stove?
                          a way of heating with out electricity?
                          and the list goes on,

                          even if we lost 50% of the oil coming in, we would be in a world of hurt,
                          I agree, we are not prepared to be without oil and we have no plans that I'm aware of . Bad as big oil is, we need it and we need to get the gears in motion that will free us from foreign oil! I admit, before learning more from this Forum, I thought alternative energy was here and now ready to take the place of oil products. Now I know the technology, cost and dependability have a ways to go. All this issue of energy, oil exploration and the economy should be a matter of national interest and national security. I agree, "we would be in a world of hurt", so whatever it takes to prevent that should start happening. How much longer are we gonna talk about all this and not do anything? I think the President is out of touch and out of line holding up the pipeline. Frank

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                          • #28
                            Re: Keystone pipeline project

                            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                            I agree, we are not prepared to be without oil and we have no plans that I'm aware of . Bad as big oil is, we need it and we need to get the gears in motion that will free us from foreign oil! I admit, before learning more from this Forum, I thought alternative energy was here and now ready to take the place of oil products. Now I know the technology, cost and dependability have a ways to go. All this issue of energy, oil exploration and the economy should be a matter of national interest and national security. I agree, "we would be in a world of hurt", so whatever it takes to prevent that should start happening. How much longer are we gonna talk about all this and not do anything? I think the President is out of touch and out of line holding up the pipeline. Frank
                            Well what the hell happened to the Hydrogen vehicles I was promised? All through high school my science teachers preached that in 20 years everyone would be driving one and the addiction to oil would be a non issue. 30 years have come and gone and NOTHING! A few years ago a hydrogen fueling station opened up near Capital Hill. Ford and GM gave some lobbyist group a few cars to show off. Brightly colored cars with banners that said 'POWERED BY H2O!'

                            Drove by the now closed fueling station the other day....saw a sign saying 'TACO BELL COMING SPRING 2012!

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                            • #29
                              Re: Keystone pipeline project

                              "Drove by the now closed fueling station the other day....saw a sign saying 'TACO BELL COMING SPRING 2012!"

                              You asked for hydrogen and they are giving you methane
                              I remember reading somewhere that the technology for a hydrogen fuel cell was not even close to practical application. President Bush was a big supporter of hydrogen powered cars, he had his gas and President Obama is pushing solar panels and windmills! Do you get the feeling everyone is lying to us?

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                              • #30
                                Re: Keystone pipeline project

                                I'll tell you what.... let's have both the Republicans and the Democrats decide on one thing.... we will proceed with the pipeline, and in fact let's put it on the fast track with the following stipulations:

                                1. ONLY AMERICAN, U.S. born citizens will be employed!

                                2. ONLY AMERICAN, U.S. made (materials, parts, machining, and assembly) products will be used to construct the pipeline!

                                3. ONLY AMERICAN, U.S. made tools, safety equipment, and vehicles will be allowed in the assembly, material transport, and construction of the pipeline!

                                4. ONLY AMERICAN, 100% headquartered in the U.S. (full taxpaying) contractors and corporations will be used in the engineering, construction, material, labor, and parts will be employed in the planning, survey, oversight, construction, clean-up, and protection of the pipeline!

                                5. All of the production transfer and output of the oil production will be used in the U.S. at a fair-U.S market price and that price will be at an established percentage discount to all U.S. citizens... and all excess (after the U.S. market is saturated) will only be exported, at a price substantially above the U.S. domestic price. (I'm sick of us paying prices for lumber, meat, oil, vegetables, and other U.S.-produced commodities where WE must compete with the export global market for our own domestic product!)

                                6. Profits from all petroleum products resulting from the transfer of oil through this pipeline must be taxed (a small persentage) to the benefit of the people whose land has been crossed (at an ongoing and never ending rate for as long as the "grass grows and the water flows" and that no interference of this shall be enacted by either the State or Local or National governments; and that those governments will enforce such payment guarantee's. Such payment will be based on pipeline usage, and will only end when the pipeline is removed and the land restored to it's original condition.

                                7. In addition, a tax shall be levied that will directly benefit the military concerns that are responsible for it's defence.

                                8. The companies that are profitiing from this pipeline must establish and guarantee a permanent fund for the maintenance, repair, and any and all reparations necessary to clean-up any spillage and/or contamination resulting from this pipeline. Such guaranteed funds must not, now or in any concievable future, be infringed upon, borrowed against, or otherwise mis-appropriated to other projects until such time that the pipeline is no longer in use and has been completely removed and the land restored. At that time, the fund can be appropriately divided and returned to the companies that contributed to such fund.

                                Basically, I'm sick of the taxpayers making the sacrifises, giving up the land, paying the taxes to defend, and then getting ripped at the pump or in the market-place for such "investment" and "allowance". The taxpayers should not fund, should not be financially responsible to it's building, it's maintainance, it's defence, it's replacement, or it's demolition, or the land recovery from it's existance. Those responsibilities should be left to corporations, their management, and the stockholders.

                                And yeah, I know... with those conditions it wouldn't stand a chance!

                                CWS

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