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  • #16
    Re: War with Iran?

    Originally posted by Flux View Post
    Frank we both know raising taxes won't even put a ding into the deficit, so why are the democrats desperately trying to raise taxes? What are they going to do with that money? "We the people" have every right to ask our government where "exactly" our tax dollars are going towards. We never get a straight answer out of the Democrats on this issue, but they have a track record that speaks volumes of what they would do with that money.

    How do you know lowering taxes doesn't create jobs? What facts are you basing this on? Take corporations out of the equations and focus on small businesses when you say that statement. Wait until Obamacare goes into effect and watch how it's going to hurt small businesses.

    I agree that there is guilt to go around to both parties, but at least Republicans want you to have a pay check at the end of the week. if we left it up to democrats..they would send you a bill at the end of the work week. I'm not in favor of any political group that wishes to just "take" my hard earn money so they can just give it away to some other group of people. Maybe if I was just an employee I might think differently (I highly doubt it), but being a business owner...you have a whole different perspective on things, and handing the government money so they can blow it...is not something people are too fond of.

    Capitalism works Frank, and unfortunately I agree with you on "Wall street" moving jobs out of this country...the Government can't ever stop them (thats communism), but they could of persuaded them not too..and they didn't.
    I keep making the mistake of thinking whoever is in charge of "the government" at any given time actually understands the implications of overspending. I think of the government as a huge business and yet the folks in charge are not businessmen and women, they are as wreckless with our tax money as private individuals who rack up tens of thousands in credit card debt and expect someone else to make good on it.

    I don't want to get into the whole small business owner. private sector worker vs the union worker thing, we've danced that dance. My answer to your question about small business owners growing jobs through lower taxes would be, can you grow jobs in a failing economy, and does that fix things? I think reducing unemployment here is very important, but how does that figure into the puzzle of getting our economy stable when we have unresolved gov't overspending, entitlements, trade deficit,millions of illegals, the loss of business tax revenue and millions of jobs?

    I guess when I take a step back and try to take in the big picture the solutions are complicated and must somehow all be addressed. Yes, the republicans are business friendly to a point but they also looked the other way as jobs were lost and illegals grew. Republicans were never fond of labor in this country and always fought against us, so from that standpoint you would think I favor democrats? Not true. I am in favor of a stable economy and what President Obama and the democrats gave us is failure. The green businesses that lost billions were not investigated and I won't waste your time with my other complaints. My bottom line is that we have to give the republicans another opportunity. I only hope they are willing to do the radical things necessary to make it right! Gov't can't beat up small business , or the rich or the union worker either, they all need to exist in some sort of harmony and balance.

    Capitalism only works when tempered with common sense, kill your consumer base by exporting jobs and you prove capitalism can fail. Gov't can provide some benefits to the public and those in real need, but there too when common sense goes out the window we see programs that are unsustainable. I'm fine with cutting benefits, cutting wages if I get lowered taxes and a more level playing field. Make everyone who earns income pay taxes, no excuses!

    Well, I flapped my jaws for a while but I don't think we will see the necesary changes. I know I'm just full of doom and gloom "The sky is falling". Here in my home town they are going to switch to private sanitation and cut city workers, more folks on unemployment. Sad thing is that without an economy on the rebound, the future will require more and more cost cuts. Where is the plan, is there a plan that would put all these issues in a proper order to be resolved? Unless I hear it from either party I am assuming there is no plan. Did I miss something guys?

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: War with Iran?

      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
      I keep making the mistake of thinking whoever is in charge of "the government" at any given time actually understands the implications of overspending. I think of the government as a huge business and yet the folks in charge are not businessmen and women, they are as wreckless with our tax money as private individuals who rack up tens of thousands in credit card debt and expect someone else to make good on it.

      I don't want to get into the whole small business owner. private sector worker vs the union worker thing, we've danced that dance. My answer to your question about small business owners growing jobs through lower taxes would be, can you grow jobs in a failing economy, and does that fix things? I think reducing unemployment here is very important, but how does that figure into the puzzle of getting our economy stable when we have unresolved gov't overspending, entitlements, trade deficit,millions of illegals, the loss of business tax revenue and millions of jobs?

      I guess when I take a step back and try to take in the big picture the solutions are complicated and must somehow all be addressed. Yes, the republicans are business friendly to a point but they also looked the other way as jobs were lost and illegals grew. Republicans were never fond of labor in this country and always fought against us, so from that standpoint you would think I favor democrats? Not true. I am in favor of a stable economy and what President Obama and the democrats gave us is failure. The green businesses that lost billions were not investigated and I won't waste your time with my other complaints. My bottom line is that we have to give the republicans another opportunity. I only hope they are willing to do the radical things necessary to make it right! Gov't can't beat up small business , or the rich or the union worker either, they all need to exist in some sort of harmony and balance.

      Capitalism only works when tempered with common sense, kill your consumer base by exporting jobs and you prove capitalism can fail. Gov't can provide some benefits to the public and those in real need, but there too when common sense goes out the window we see programs that are unsustainable. I'm fine with cutting benefits, cutting wages if I get lowered taxes and a more level playing field. Make everyone who earns income pay taxes, no excuses!

      Well, I flapped my jaws for a while but I don't think we will see the necesary changes. I know I'm just full of doom and gloom "The sky is falling". Here in my home town they are going to switch to private sanitation and cut city workers, more folks on unemployment. Sad thing is that without an economy on the rebound, the future will require more and more cost cuts. Where is the plan, is there a plan that would put all these issues in a proper order to be resolved? Unless I hear it from either party I am assuming there is no plan. Did I miss something guys?
      Corporations do not represent the middle class Frank, and the small businesses in this country are the back bone and the largest tax base in this country...and that's my point. Raising taxes will have the most impact on small businesses and that's a problem imo. I also have a major problem when someone like GE doesn't pay any federal taxes but yet they get a taxpayer bailout? wtf? I find it quite troubling when Obama danced around the GE issue but yet he campaigned very hard in 2008 against lobbyists!

      We all can co-exist in this country and be fair to all groups, but lobbyists and political figures will have no parts of any "common sense" conversations. If I have to eat some humble pie...so should Unions, Non-Union, corporations etc.

      I don't care if they are Republican or Democrat...I want to throw out the entire United States congress and get fresh new faces and ideas in there. I'm so sick and tired of career politicians and slanted views one way or the other, and I don't like the government forcing me to do anything, except pay my fair share of taxes. The government doesn't know what's best for me and my family, and I surely take issue with the government telling me what I'm supposed to be eating. If I want to eat a greasy cheeseburger that will stick to the inside of my rib cage..then so be it! I don't need the government telling me what I can and can't do with my own body...they don't own it.

      I'm sure you read the story the other week, about a school taking a packed lunch away from child because it wasn't deemed healthy enough, and made the child eat chicken nuggets? They are damn lucky that wasn't my child they did that too, cause I would of been sending this message from inside of a jail cell right now.

      Too much government is the problem.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: War with Iran?

        Originally posted by Flux View Post
        Corporations do not represent the middle class Frank, and the small businesses in this country are the back bone and the largest tax base in this country...and that's my point. Raising taxes will have the most impact on small businesses and that's a problem imo. I also have a major problem when someone like GE doesn't pay any federal taxes but yet they get a taxpayer bailout? wtf? I find it quite troubling when Obama danced around the GE issue but yet he campaigned very hard in 2008 against lobbyists!

        We all can co-exist in this country and be fair to all groups, but lobbyists and political figures will have no parts of any "common sense" conversations. If I have to eat some humble pie...so should Unions, Non-Union, corporations etc.

        I don't care if they are Republican or Democrat...I want to throw out the entire United States congress and get fresh new faces and ideas in there. I'm so sick and tired of career politicians and slanted views one way or the other, and I don't like the government forcing me to do anything, except pay my fair share of taxes. The government doesn't know what's best for me and my family, and I surely take issue with the government telling me what I'm supposed to be eating. If I want to eat a greasy cheeseburger that will stick to the inside of my rib cage..then so be it! I don't need the government telling me what I can and can't do with my own body...they don't own it.

        I'm sure you read the story the other week, about a school taking a packed lunch away from child because it wasn't deemed healthy enough, and made the child eat chicken nuggets? They are damn lucky that wasn't my child they did that too, cause I would of been sending this message from inside of a jail cell right now.

        Too much government is the problem.
        I'm with you on the whole gov't and tax thing. Gov't telling us what to do is a sort of slippery slope. We have gov't mandated things including vaccinations which I believe save lives, but exactly where does it all stop? This thing with the Georgetwon law student pushing for either job or gov't paid for birth control brings up all sorts of ideas. I'm actually for funding to prevent unwanted births, but I take it much further to the point of mandating it's use unless the man and woman involved can prove intent and ability to provide for their unborn child. Now that sounds almost like what the communist chinese do in controlling the population like farm animals. My point is sort of along the same lines as your's because where do you draw the line to what the gov't can do with, or to your life? Most of us don't want to see kids sick from obesity but do we want the gov't smacking a cheesburger out of their hands, or prosecuting us for child abuse? In my opinion these are all fair topics for conversation but it's like picking out drapes when the kitchen is on fire! Where is the plan to save America? What exactly are the priorities? Can we afford to be talking about chicken nuggets and the kardashians, when folks are losing jobs and homes?

        Flux, on a side note you gotta cool down if you're gonna have kids! Most of the adults they will encounter such as teachers are pretty responsible, and you need to give them the benefit of the doubt. My younger daughter was always the innocent victim of some bad teacher. I lost count of how many times I went to school prepared to strangle some teacher who wrongly punished my little angel. Funny how the story changed once the teacher gave his or her account of the events, somehow my daughter's memory was not that good!
        You need to catch yourself and see your child as imperfect which is sometimes a very difficult thing to do. All I'm saying is keep a cool head and get all the facts. there were a couple times that I argued with teachers who were wrong and that's a tricky thing too. I remember my wife and daughter expecting me to go to school to bully a teacher who had wronged our little dear. No! I knew my daughter was messing up and was not deserving a a better grade. You have to be careful not to be used which can happen. Gosh, there is a lot to learn, especially if you want to try and do it right.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: War with Iran?

          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
          Flux, on a side note you gotta cool down if you're gonna have kids! Most of the adults they will encounter such as teachers are pretty responsible, and you need to give them the benefit of the doubt. My younger daughter was always the innocent victim of some bad teacher. I lost count of how many times I went to school prepared to strangle some teacher who wrongly punished my little angel. Funny how the story changed once the teacher gave his or her account of the events, somehow my daughter's memory was not that good!
          You need to catch yourself and see your child as imperfect which is sometimes a very difficult thing to do. All I'm saying is keep a cool head and get all the facts. there were a couple times that I argued with teachers who were wrong and that's a tricky thing too. I remember my wife and daughter expecting me to go to school to bully a teacher who had wronged our little dear. No! I knew my daughter was messing up and was not deserving a a better grade. You have to be careful not to be used which can happen. Gosh, there is a lot to learn, especially if you want to try and do it right.
          Frank, I can distinguish the difference between between right and wrong and I expect a teacher to do the same.

          When I have a child, I will be sending my child to school to learn, not to be lectured on what they should be bringing to school for lunch, as I believe that's over stepping the boundaries. I also don't need a teacher poisoning the mind of my child and having slanted views push on his/her brain.

          Teachers are suppose to be neutral and let the student make up their own minds, and that concept has been lost for the last 39 years of my life. That's not being responsible Frank..and it was frowned upon if a student went to vo-tech and wanted to go into the trades and not college. Is that a responsible act of a teacher? My senior year, we were encouraged to walk out of school in protest by a teacher, because a fellow teacher was losing his job...was that a responsible act by a teacher Frank? My father flipped the "f" out over that one..and I didn't know any better until I got home that night from school.

          I will be heavily involved in what my child brings home from school as I want to know what is being taught to them. If my child acts up in school I fully expect a teacher to take appropriate action and discipline my child for their actions...no argument from me on that. I just don't need the government or school district telling me what my child's packed lunch should be. If I pack my child a turkey sandwich and it gets pulled away like that other child had done to him in favor of greasy chicken nuggets...there will be a problem.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: War with Iran?

            I would think that after all these years of middle east war, which has pretty much accomplished nothing, that war would be the last thing the US would want to do more of. I tend to be non-interventionist, but in the case of Iran I believe they can't be allowed to have nukes, as that represents a direct threat to the security of the US. Unlike many others, Iran can probably develop effective delivery systems within 5-10 years. I wouldn't hesitate to take out the facilities. No war is necessary or desirable, just a strike. One day later, problem solved (or at least deferred). There is a window where this could be done, and it won't stay open forever.

            Taxation in the US is too high, but this is the wrong time to cut. The primary proponents of cutting are corporations, that stand to gain the most. Corporatists are advertising that cutting taxes are the cure for everything. They are capitalizing on people's pain in this crap economy. But reality is that actual cash held by business is already at an all-time high. and they're still offshoring work. In the US the top bracket for individual taxes is 35%, but that starts at $379k. Most small business owners are nowhere close to this, their top bracket is 25-28% ($34.5k-174.4k). Those brackets aren't the ones that the "tax cut" proponents are going to change. They can't. That's the revenue base.

            Clearly gov't is out of control in the US, including the annual $670B defense budget, which is utter insanity for a country that is borrowing 42 cents of every dollar it spends. But here's the problem: that huge government budget, at $3.7T, is 25% of the GDP. Considering that every dollar of gov't spending is responsible for at least a couple of dollars of GDP (every time a dollar changes hands it adds to GDP), if the gov't actually did what they should do and made huge immediate cuts, the domestic economy would STOP. I am a Ron Paul fan, but if he were to actually cut $1T as he proposes, the US would crash into a massive depression. Don't get me wrong, massive spending cuts have to happen, just not all at once. What has to happen is the US needs to re-establish industrial production so that the economy is not dependent on gov't spending, which, today, is the engine that is driving the economy. Then, and only then, can we taper off the stupid spending and decrease the taxation on Americans. It isn't going to happen as long as Washington pursues either the socialist or corporatist agendas promoted by the two political parties. Blanket tax cuts are attractive to more people and needed in the long term but will be a disaster in the short term. What makes sense is to use the tax code to strongly incentivize industry to invest and produce in the US. THEN... you cut taxes, and things will (once again) take off. The engine that drives the economy needs to be production. Currently, it's government spending. That's sick.

            The income tax as a permanent fixture is only 99 years old. Before that, the cost of operating the Federal Gov't was paid for mostly by import duties. Income tax was implemented to pay for the Civil war , but actually declared unconstitutional in 1895. The 16th amendment was passed in 1913 and, along with the institution of the Federal Reserve, was probably the beginning of all of our financial woes and responsible for the massive transfer of wealth away from the people and into the hands of the elite. The gov't is not in control of the US; banking is, and they have no allegiance to you or to the US.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: War with Iran?

              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
              CWS, you are dead on with your assessment of the republicans but refuse to shed the same light on the democrats and President Obama!
              If the rich are getting richer under the republicans who benefits under President Obama and the democrats? The President did not do a dam thing to improve the economy and jobs in my opinion. American dollars and lives still lost in wars, big talk on green jobs and billions of taxpayer dollars lost to crooks endorsed by our leader. The dems passed a healthcare bill using same dirty tricks as the republicans and it will be paid for by us, the middle class. Exactly how are we better off now than under President Bush? 16 trillion in debt, no jobs, no trade balance, nothing on illegal immigration, no balancing the budget or stop overspending, no transparency. Yes, the republicans helped the rich and did not stop the outsourcing, did nothing on all those issues I criticized the democrats for failing to fix. Why should we stick with President Obama, and how much worse off will we be in another four years? In my opinion the grand speeches are worthless, we needed change we did not get. I expect if the republicans win the Presidency they will do much the same as in the past and we will see them get booted out as well. What choice for change and results do we the middle class have? Did I miss something with either party? The country is failing, cities are failing, people are losing their jobs and homes, what am I not seeing?

              Frankie: It is worth remembering that the Republicans controlled the House of Reps, and that the "cloture" rules in the Senate essentially mean that the minority party (currently the Republicans) can block bills by threatening a philibuster unless the majority can come up with 60 votes to override the philibuster. The point of this is that O did not get his way on many issues after the election, the Republicans successfully blocked much legislation since day one for Obama. In fact, Speaker of the House Rep Boehner stated immediately after Obama was elected that his number one priority was to make Obama a one term president. Meaning it was more important to Boehner than the economy, jobs, wars, environment, etc.

              Not that I love Obama, because I don't, but the Republicans have made matters worse by not cooperating to an irrational degree imo.

              BTW: My highest priority for our government has been, and remains, a balanced Federal Budget. Everything else in the health of the economy flows from that.
              Time flies like an arrow.

              Fruit flies like a banana.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: War with Iran?

                Originally posted by geno gardner View Post
                Frankie: It is worth remembering that the Republicans controlled the House of Reps, and that the "cloture" rules in the Senate essentially mean that the minority party (currently the Republicans) can block bills by threatening a philibuster unless the majority can come up with 60 votes to override the philibuster. The point of this is that O did not get his way on many issues after the election, the Republicans successfully blocked much legislation since day one for Obama. In fact, Speaker of the House Rep Boehner stated immediately after Obama was elected that his number one priority was to make Obama a one term president. Meaning it was more important to Boehner than the economy, jobs, wars, environment, etc.

                Not that I love Obama, because I don't, but the Republicans have made matters worse by not cooperating to an irrational degree imo.

                BTW: My highest priority for our government has been, and remains, a balanced Federal Budget. Everything else in the health of the economy flows from that.
                Geno, I place blame on both parties and we the people for the whole mess. President Obama and the democrats did hold a majority for a while and used it to pass a healthcare bill that we have to pay for instead of addressing other concerns. He and the democrats insist on the green agenda but won't investigate the falied green businesses that lost hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars.

                We can't have more of the same party agenda, and political favoritism at the expense of the economy. If the democrats and republicans don't stop their behavior of making the other look bad while the country errodes what chance do we have for recovery? Healthcare was the highest priority on the President's list but without affordable gasoline and other refined oil products we are sunk. I agree that these two parties take turns blocking legislation, but that game is getting old and the clock is running out of time!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: War with Iran?

                  Originally posted by CWSmith
                  Franki,

                  I understand where you are coming from, but again (and again, and again) you are missing the fact that the economy is where it is after eight long years of total inept spending, unfinanced and misguided wars, waste at mulitple levels, and deceit of historical proportions. As I've tried to show you and others in by simple example, you are now more than willing to give the government back to the problem makers... and even when it shown that Obama has been blocked and hindered by the Republican Congress, you still think we ought to change eveything back to Republican domination.

                  Yes, the Democrats had like a whole year or so when they dominated... but you also know full well that the Democrats tried very hard to reach compromise and to bring the Republicans into the process.... the problem was that the Republican's set forth a goal of only one purpose and that was to scuttle the Obama Presidency!!! No other agenda has been in place except to get Obama out of the Whitehouse! Frankly, that is totally un-American and I could probably even stretch that to treasoness, as they fail to work with the executive branch that had an overwhelming support of a majority of the American people. While surely, no elected representative should ever bow to Presidency, there is a big difference when such elected office works with only the objective to remove that President! (And THAT is where most Republicans have been for the last three years.... to the point that even some Republicans are sick of it and leaving the party.

                  The Affordable Health Care Act, is in itself a shining example of Republican efforts to make this Presidency fail. They are the ones who refused to participate, refuse to support price controls and refused to allow regulation of the industry's record cost increases. Historically, health care for America goes all the way back to Teddy Roosevelt's administration. (BTW, he was a Republican.) And for a 100 years various administrations have tried to bring this kind of benefit to the American people... It was only the Obama administration and their supporters that finally succeeded at this... but it was the Republicans that made sure that it would have no cost controls and it was the Republican machine that has promoted the rumors of everything from "Death Panels" to open coverage of illegal aliens.

                  In a post a few days ago, IIRC, you alluded to the thought that the Obama administration hasn't done one thing to the betterment of our situation. I don't think the "numbers" show that at all. While they do show plenty of room for improvement, considering the downward dive that this country took from 2000 to 2008, only God himself could have possibly pulled us out of that without further investment and leadership. Whether it be military action, international diplomacy, economic recovery, or illegal immigration... we have significantly improved since 2008... but, we are still very much away from where we should be on any of these fronts.

                  The "green" issues that you site are truly perplexing and we've all discussed that and YES, these failures are certainly a sorry issue, SH!T happens. Now, is that any worse than the countless dollars spent on tax encentives to the oil companies, which hasn't paid you and I a dime, or for any of that money that simply disappeared in Iraq under the Bush administration, or the $millions lost to Halliburton in their "no-bid" profiteering on our war effort there? The list is long and the shadows rather deep under the most secretive government administration that this country had ever seen... and I haven't seen any issues of any of that posted here; but, "green jobs" is a killer? Isn't that a bit slanted?

                  If you look at historical economic numbers, you would find that we were in much higher debt in 1944 than we are today (and for very GOOD reason). You will also see, that between 1945 and 1975 that debt decline sharply. During that period this country had sustained growth and jobs were plentiful at all levels as well as the growth of the middle class. Those that were wealthy also profited, but they also met their responsibilities to the country that provided them such fertile investments. In 1980, Reagan significantly cut taxes to the rich and to American corporations and for the first time we became a nation of DEBT!

                  Since that time, various administrations have continued to cut those taxes, while increasing the burden on the working class and today we are getting fairly close to that 1944 debt number. And the only solution to this by any of the Republican candidates is to cut taxes further on the rich and on corporations... and they tell you and I that it will increase JOBS! They are NOT fooling me.. but I am wondering about you! (and I know that is going to change your point of view or your vote)

                  Someone posted yesterday I think, to the point of the question about what kind waste would we then have if Obama increased taxes. I can't answer that of course; but then if we don't raise taxes, don't put people back to work, don't remove encentives that promote more American tax-free profits for off-shore jobs, then I know we return this country to the guys who are determined to fly us into the ground. But what the he!!... as long as Obama is out of office, that is all that matters to them.!

                  CWS
                  CWS, you know I value your thoughts on this issue but if we are to go back and place blame on President Bush then we have to go back and place blame on President Clinton. I believe it was under President Clinton that NAFTA was passed. I voted for President Obama and it sickens me to have to vote for a republican but I am left with no alternative. The current state of our country and economy is the result of many years of democratic and republican administrations and legislators failing to do what was necessary. Neither party used foresight, wheter it was pandering to big oil or the minority vote. I have no respect for either party because I did the job I was paid to do just like yourself and the tradesmen on this forum. Can you imagine the arrogance with which these elected officials [erformed their jobs as they passed legislation to gain favor with special interest groups?

                  I know the republicans did plenty of damage in the past, but why or how can I vote for a President and party that clearly did not do better?
                  Sure I think we need to raise taxes, or change the codes to provide a more balanced result. I am positive lowering taxes will not result in fixing unemployment. I agree that lower business taxes may alow some small businesses to hire , but I doubt it will be noticible. We have a stalemate on the tax issue, a healthcare bill that will cost us, nothing done to cut spending and a national debt that keeps growing.
                  I am going to vote against President Obama, the same as I voted against President Bush. I am going to send a message that I expect my President and his party to change things for the better. I do not, and I repeat, do not expect a republican administration to do much better. With any luck at some point before we either fall into another great depression or get drawn into a world war, both political parties will realize they work for us and need to work together. My income taxes have not gone down over the years and my property taxes have doubled. Who will pay for the healthcare bill? Me! Who will make up for the taxes big oil and other corporations do not pay? Me!

                  Why can't people step back and admit both parties over the last forty years have given too much to big business (capitalism) and to the people in the form of government programs(entitlements) while government spending grew? I have to shake my head and laugh when folks say capitalism is great because in my opinion it may be profitable for the ceo's and stockholders but in it's current form of outsourcing it is a death sentence for the American worker and tax revenue based government. I apply the same disbelief to folks who thing the government can provide healthcare and education and everything else people need or want. The money is simply not there! Where is the middle ground, the common sense that neither side is thinking with a clear head?

                  I took a beating here last time we had a Presidential election as I criticized President Bush. I still think we needed change but I am not a hypocrit given where we are today. I do not believe things are better, how can they be? Did government overspending stop, the deficit decrease, trade deficit change, balanced budget get passed? Do our American dollars still buy chinese junk that must be repurchased over and over again? Do we still pay for the healthcare and education of illegals? Let me know when those realities change and I'll believe our country has a snowballs chance of surviving. Let me know when both political parties can work together for the good of the country and the people and I'll believe I was wrong about both of them.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: War with Iran?

                    Frank, just for the record, NAFTA was signed in December of 1992 by George H.W. Bush. Clinton didn't take office until January 0f 1993.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: War with Iran?

                      NAFTA was signed by President George H.W. Bush, Mexican President Salinas, and Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney in 1992. It was ratified by the legislatures of the three countries in 1993. The U.S. House of Representatives approved it by 234 to 200 on November 17, 1993. The U.S. Senate approved it by 60 to 38 on November 20, three days later. It was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on December 8, 1993 and entered force January 1, 1994. Although it was signed by President Bush, it was a priority of President Clinton's, and its passage is considered one of his first successes. (Source: History.com, NAFTA Signed into Law, December 8, 1993)
                      How Was NAFTA Started?:
                      The impetus for NAFTA actually began with President Ronald Reagan, who campaigned on a North American common market. In 1984, Congress passed the Trade and Tariff Act. This is important because it gave the President "fast-track" authority to negotiate free trade agreements, while only allowing Congress the ability to approve or disapprove, not change negotiating points. Canadian Prime Minister Mulroney agreed with Reagan to begin negotiations for the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement, which was signed in 1988, went into effect in 1989 and is now suspended due to NAFTA.

                      Yep, Presidents Regan, Bush and Clinton! Still believe there is a big difference there? Like I said, I am no fan of either party. They are both responsible for where we are today!!!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: War with Iran?

                        Franki,

                        I pulled my previous post soon after I posted it realizing that I had made a couple of mistakes in referrals (like the comparison in 1944 debt to now, which was inaccurate, the chart was actually a comparison of debt as a percentage of GNP) In any case, on an immediate re-read, I figured I should pull it until I could further check the facts on what I said... my apologies seeing you picked that up almost immediately.

                        Really Franki, the difference in feeling between you and I is that you expect things that have gone wrong to correct almost immediately. We gave G.W. eight years to do all that damage, but now you feel that because Obama could not and did not correct it in just three years, we should throw the bum out and replace him with another G.W. My difference is in the understanding that you can't make a correction that fast, and I'm for staying the course that is presently showing "correction".

                        I liken it to being in an airplane in which the pilot had misread the instruments and has pulled the yoke back to regain altitude.. the plane has lost "lift" is is plunging toward earth in it's lost of speed, as sort of flat spin. Everything that he is doing is wrong, and though he things pulling back on the yoke will regain airspeed and lift... he simply doesn't know what he is doing and he's reading everything wrong.... we have plunged from 60,000 feet to 50,000, to 40,000, to 30,000 to 20,000 AND at that point we grab the idiot and yank him out of the seat and place someone else there and correctly reading the instruments, he starts pushes the nose forward and pushes the throttle forward to feed the engines and thus get us out of this uncontrolled dive; but that takes time, and though we are slowly pulling out, it will be necessary to continue the dive for a short time, we have not yet achieved "climb" and we drop to 15,000 to 13,000, to 11, 500 to 10,000...... we're coming out and the rate of drop is slowing..... But you and other jump up and start screaming that we are going to crash and we're all going to die, so you grab the new pilot... the pilot that is actually beginning to "fly" this plane and yet in our panic we yank him out of the seat and put the old pilot back in..... and all he has been yelling is to pull the yoke and the throttle back, pull back, pull BACK, PULL BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!

                        What this guy has done is alarm and frighten the passengers into a panic so that he can once again gain control... it matters not that the plane is going to crash and everybody is going to die, it only matters to him that he is at the controls when it hits the water! And, from my point of view that is where we are in this election process.... the opposition refuses to recognize and refuses to help, it doesn't matter that the course has been corrected or that the economy is beginning to see "lift"... all that matters is that we replace this pilot and put themselves back into control and all they are offering as a reason, is the they reduce the taxes and pull the yoke and throttle back. That hasn't worked for thirty years and they all refuse to acknowledge that and they are doing everything in their arsenal to keep you from seeing that.

                        I guess the point is that if you really wanted to be fair about this, you'd give both parties the same chance in time, which you refuse to do and refuse to recognize. The stalemate that we see my friend, is largely because the Democrats didn't make all the corrections in just one year and you and others like you then put Republicans back in charge of Congress and they were able to not only refuse thier participation, but were then able to block the President's efforts. Not only that, but then the Supreme Court approved "Citizens United" and allowed the whole political system to be corrupted by unlimited investment by the very corporations who have squandered our jobs, and the character of the country for the sake of their own greed.

                        In any case, you and I are in agreement about the problems here in our country and I think we agree with regards to the corruptablily of our government, but we are unfortunately on opposite ends as to how to deal with it. I'm not so impatient as to place the culprits back in charge so quickly without giving a fair time chance for the corrections to continue as they are. We have a history of ineptitude in the last 30 years from the Republicans. We've seen some slight climb under the Democrats, but that has been very little in the face of historical blockage and outright attacks by the Republicans. We see manipulation of oil prices, and unregulated support of big business and uncontrolled immigration and loss of jobs all for the sake of profits. We see an erosion of the middle class, continued wars that only the poor and middle class shoulder, and of which the rich and the corporations profiteer from. And yet for all of this, we the middle class seem to only want to believe the lies that lower taxes on the rich, less control on business, less regulation, no environmental controls, and totally free market practice will make things better for us. The problem is that there is NOT a single example where any of this has worked in the last thirty years... worked for the middle class anyway. It does work very well for the rich and for big business. It hasn't worked for small business either.

                        CWS
                        Last edited by CWSmith; 03-11-2012, 12:53 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Re: War with Iran?

                          Originally posted by geno gardner View Post
                          the Republicans successfully blocked much legislation since day one for Obama.
                          Geno that's not true, and I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from. Obama had a Super Majority in the congress since they day he took office, so he didn't need 1 Republican vote in either chamber to pass anything he wanted.

                          So for 2 years, Obama could of passed any type of bill he wanted. Instead he focused on healthcare, and a bailout that was deemed a disaster, when he should of been focusing on the economy, jobs, etc.

                          Let's not lose focus on the fact that for 2 years he could of "tried" to fix a lot of the problems we have now, and he failed to do so, because pleasing his LIberal base was more important because of the opportunity he had with a Super Majority.
                          Last edited by Flux; 03-11-2012, 12:48 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Re: War with Iran?

                            CW, nobody is going to fix anything. The damage is beyond repair. At this point it's time to prepare. The house of cards is on the way down and sitting here blaming past and present administrations is only taking away time from the things that need to be done to prepare oneself for the inevitable downfall of the government and society. I can't wait to see the panic that ensues when the infrastructure is no longer able to support cell phone and computer based communications. We have raised an entire generation, indeed society of folks that don't know how to actually do anything productive or at least those things necessary to survive and put food on the table. It will be a blood bath when it comes.
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                            • #29
                              Re: War with Iran?

                              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                              CW, nobody is going to fix anything. The damage is beyond repair. At this point it's time to prepare. The house of cards is on the way down and sitting here blaming past and present administrations is only taking away time from the things that need to be done to prepare oneself for the inevitable downfall of the government and society. I can't wait to see the panic that ensues when the infrastructure is no longer able to support cell phone and computer based communications. We have raised an entire generation, indeed society of folks that don't know how to actually do anything productive or at least those things necessary to survive and put food on the table. It will be a blood bath when it comes.
                              NHM, you're all wrong! When the time comes all those folks will shock you with their many skills They will pick up tools and make repairs that will leave you speechless They will plant crops, raise livestock and continue to produce all goods we now consume

                              In response to CWS, I did not expect miracles from President Obama or the democrats but I did expect some progress. I am positive we could not afford the further damage done and time wasted, just as seen in previous administrations. I agree with NHM that things look beyond repair, another term with this President or a republican won't be of much help. Does anyone seriously think things will improve and for the love of God, how??? Will the two political parties suddenly work together? I doubt it. Will the overspending stop and massive entitlements be drastically cut? No! What exactly does anyone think this President or a republican one will do differently? In my opinion, nothing. Frank

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                              • #30
                                Re: War with Iran?

                                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                                NHM, you're all wrong! When the time comes all those folks will shock you with their many skills They will pick up tools and make repairs that will leave you speechless They will plant crops, raise livestock and continue to produce all goods we now consume

                                In response to CWS, I did not expect miracles from President Obama or the democrats but I did expect some progress. I am positive we could not afford the further damage done and time wasted, just as seen in previous administrations. I agree with NHM that things look beyond repair, another term with this President or a republican won't be of much help. Does anyone seriously think things will improve and for the love of God, how??? Will the two political parties suddenly work together? I doubt it. Will the overspending stop and massive entitlements be drastically cut? No! What exactly does anyone think this President or a republican one will do differently? In my opinion, nothing. Frank
                                Frank the problem is Obama told bold white face lies to the American people in 2008..which is no different than any other Politician. I don't feel like linking video's to all his campaign promises that he VOWED to correct if he was elected President cause there are so darn many of them. The problem with the democratic party is it was hijacked by the far left, and any moderate is afraid to speak out against the democratic machine. We all see what the machine does to candidates who don't comply with what they want, and with the main stream media in bed with the democrats. it's an up hill battle fighting against all of the propaganda being spewed by the left. For example..Obama has been in office for over 3 years now...and the focus went from Obama's poor record to...the republicans stopped him since day 1. lol I mean...where do these people get this stuff from? Don't people pay attention and find things out own their own, and not listen to what's being spoon fed to them from the main stream media?

                                I don't think we will ever see either party get fixed, so I believe in voting for the lesser evil.

                                I would of gladly taken 4 more years of Bill Clinton with a smile on my face, over this communist.

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