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  • #31
    Re: War with Iran?

    I agree with you Flux but the crux of the problem is and has always been corruption. Corruption is like a snow ball rolling down a mountain picking up speed and size as it rolls. Eventually it gets so big and so fast that nothing will stop it. Obama is not the cause and he is not an inherently evil man. Neither was George Bush nor any of the men that preceded him. They were and are just bits of dirt that got stuck in the snow ball as it rolled. Nobody is "stopping" anyone and furthermore, nobody really wants too. The corruption is so intertwined with society and the economy that stopping anything at all would only bring the collapse on that much sooner. Put all the gadgets away, stop listening to the pundants and open your eyes and ears. You can literally feel the decay growing now. You can see it in the eyes of our youth and the attitudes of the lower and middle class. The rich are beginning to pull their resources in because they too are nervous. They know that when the revolution comes their wealth will be worthless in the new world order. Nobody is confident about anything having to do with government or the economy. We as a nation are no longer producing real goods anymore. We sell services and we work for the government or for the people but nobody is producing real tangible, salable goods that do not require a government subsidy to succeed. We are.............toast
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    • #32
      Re: War with Iran?

      Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
      Obama is not the cause and he is not an inherently evil man.
      This is the only part I disagree with because Obama's life tells a different story. Good people who love America, don't associate with people who hate America and what it stands for. From Van Jones, to George Soros, to Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright..etc. these people believe believe in a different type of world than you and I believe in. We can all disagree on specific views, but to see a Presidential elect not put his hand over his heart during the National Anthem is offensive to me as an American and as a veteran of this country. I still can't get pass that NH...and it's a slap in the face for every person who came before me and especially the people that died for preserving freedom in this country.

      The only thing I can say is..read Obama's books, his own words speak of a person with an evil agenda, and he truly believes in what he says. People who don't have evil intentions don't associate with those who do.

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      • #33
        Re: War with Iran?

        Obama came into office with a strong mandate, which he squandered in at least six ways. First, he focused on a healthcare bill written by the insurance companies - part of the financial industry. Second, he failed to bring any sanity to banking or monetary policy - trying instead to print and spend his way out of problems that were created in the first place by printing and spending. This screwed you and me but it again helped the financial industry. Third, he did nothing to promote domestic production. His recent State of the Union message was the first in which he recognized the need to incentivize US production through taxes, but unfortunately it's another case of him writing a bad check since absolutely nothing has happened or is likely to happen. Just another campaign promise. Fourth, he didn't get us out of the middle east wars. Fifth, he surrounded himself with corruption in several areas, sych as Mexican gun fiasco and Solyndra, etc. Sixth, he did nothing to address the crucial budget issues in the US - his "cuts" are not cuts, but at best slowing the growth of the debt.

        It is true, as I see it, that the Repubs blocked him in several efforts. I do view the Repubs, a group to which I have belonged for 36 years, as obstructionist and playing politics at the Country's expense. However, not one of the President's "blocked" desires should have been passed. They were all disasters.

        Bush 43 was one of the worst Presidents in history. I am still utterly amazed that he won his second term, which was decided after it was clear that he and his band of yes-men had grossly deceived the US public over the WMD issue and took us into a war that should have never been fought. Nevertheless, the incompetence of Bush is no defense for the incompetence of Obama. Clinton created the dot com crisis, Reagan had the Contra fiasco, and on and on. If it makes you feel good to point out that we have suffered through many years of corrupt and incompetent government, I guess that's ok. But is doesn't justify the current corrupt and incompetent administration, nor does it solve any problems.

        Reality is that the US has been steadily corrupted for the past hundred years. The Federal Reserve was instituted in 1913. The income tax, a brilliant scheme to pass out political favors and set Washington up as gods, was also installed permanently in 1913. FDR expanded government's reach, and perhaps even more significantly, destroyed the monetary system by ending redeemability of Federal Reserve Notes for gold in 1933 (and devaluing the currency one year later, costing the American Public billions). The litany of what seems like utterly stupid moves continues to the present day. Except that they aren't stupid at all. We are stupid. We fight about repubs and demos and contraception and gay marriage...meanwhile the real people in power - the global financial cartel - consistently milks the wealth created by those that work and puts it all in their pockets. We are no different that the poor saps in the middle east that are blowing themselves up for jihad, while their leaders are living high on the hog. The joke, I'm afraid, is on us.

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        • #34
          Re: War with Iran?

          snopes.com: Weapons of Mass Destruction Quotes

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          • #35
            Re: War with Iran?

            Did you read the "whole" Snopes story?

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            • #36
              Re: War with Iran?

              Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
              Did you read the "whole" Snopes story?
              Yes, and it's irrelevant, as it's convenient for politicians to change their minds after the fact, when it's not a popular opinion of the voters in this country. But the fact of the matter is, some of these politicians who slammed Bush for the whole "WMD" are the same people who saw the same intelligence reports as him.

              These WMD conspiracy theorists are just as goofy as the 9/11 truth movement. If people want to say Bush lied...there are plenty of "key" democrats who lied as well regarding WMD in Iraq.

              If you were looking for a "gotcha" moment, I would say that this video fits the bill.



              Last edited by Flux; 03-12-2012, 05:16 PM.

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              • #37
                Re: War with Iran?

                Originally posted by Flux View Post
                Yes, and it's irrelevant, as it's convenient for politicians to change their minds after the fact, when it's not a popular opinion of the voters in this country. But the fact of the matter is, some of these politicians who slammed Bush for the whole "WMD" are the same people who saw the same intelligence reports as him.

                These WMD conspiracy theorists are just as goofy as the 9/11 truth movement. If people want to say Bush lied...there are plenty of "key" democrats who lied as well regarding WMD in Iraq.

                If you were looking for a "gotcha" moment, I would say that this video fits the bill.



                After watching this it just reinforces my view that Americians politians just love a good war any war and will do whatever it takes to make one up Saddam was the best friend you had when looking back as he didn`t accept any opposition and kept all the different forms of Islam in Iraq in check and when you have a good look at the Middle East you have totally stuffed it up good hunting

                Tony

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                • #38
                  Re: War with Iran?

                  saddam and his sons were kidnapping, torturing, raping ,murders who could not die enogh deaths to pay for their crimes. Just my opinion. Frank

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                  • #39
                    Re: War with Iran?

                    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                    saddam and his sons were kidnapping, torturing, raping ,murders who could not die enogh deaths to pay for their crimes. Just my opinion. Frank
                    You're not the only one that shares that opinion frank...he had to go.

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                    • #40
                      Re: War with Iran?

                      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                      saddam and his sons were kidnapping, torturing, raping ,murders who could not die enogh deaths to pay for their crimes. Just my opinion. Frank
                      Yes your right Frank but the taliban and all the other Islamic terrorists were not there when Saddam ruled and he hated Iran and now Shiite majority are in power and as Iran is Shiite they both have a lot in common now thank to the U.S. and won`t be the push over as Iraq was and they both will become allies in the years to come and another Saddam type will pop up in Iraq democracy is as foreign to them as a dictatorship is to us I think we should find another way to power our cars in the near future

                      Tony
                      Last edited by AFM; 03-13-2012, 06:22 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Re: War with Iran?

                        Originally posted by AFM View Post
                        Yes your right Frank but the taliban and all the other Islamic terrorists were not there when Saddam ruled and he hated Iran and now Shiite majority are in power and as Iran is Shiite they both have a lot in common now thank to the U.S. and won`t be the push over as Iraq was and they both will become allies in the years to come and another Saddam type will pop up in Iraq democracy is as foreign to them as a dictatorship is to us I think we should find another way to power our cars in the near future

                        Tony
                        Tony, our presence and efforts in that area may have been a waste of money and lives. The people there are very different in their beliefs and practices, we seem to be the enemy, especially with recent events. I think our situation here in the USA is desperate. The cash for clunkers program enticed many people to buy new cars, folks like myself are stuck with old gas guzzlers and can't afford new cars. How do you change they way we power the cars drive when the money is not there for conversion and neither is the infrastructure to support it? We can't afford different cars or different fuel, we can't afford the fuel we have now. We are in trouble and no one has a way out.

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                        • #42
                          Re: War with Iran?

                          Well, let me address a couple of issues here...

                          First, the video of Clinton: We at that time were faced, much like Iran today, with certain WMD programs which our government addressed. Not the end of the story, but certainly an issued of limited action focused directly at the threat.

                          All of the 2002 videos are a matter of political grandstanding/postering which goes on almost every week in our government. Say something or enact something that makes a convincing issue and most if not all, of these politicians will stand up (almost in an empty house) in front of the camera and make like their are talking to the Congress or Senate inmass... most of the time, there is no one there except the other members of the body who are waiting thier turn in front of the camera. None of these guys, no matter what party, are doing what it looks like they are doing... they are simply grandstanding, right or wrong!

                          But here is my thought.... IF I TELL YOU... show YOU a map, show YOU a chart, show YOU what appears to be a bonefide intelligence report, and then I explain to YOU why I feel that everything here is the TRUTH. And then YOU go and vote for the cause that I am proposing... who is responsible for the resulting war and casualties and calamities that follow.... when it comes to light that almost everything that I presented as fact, was really nothing more than fabrication? The answer might well fall to your stupidity for believing me, but I think ultimately I am the one who is to blame because I basically built a false case to support my own agenda. And THAT is to a very large extent what had happened here.

                          I don't blame G.W. all by himself, for Lord knows there was a bunch of these people including Cheny, Rumsfeld, Rice, others. But even Colin Powell was alarmed and withdrew from the staff when he found out the extent of the deceit of which even he was drawn into.

                          But probably the most critical prolem with this is that the administration had the mandate of the American people, and of almost the entire world, to go after Bin Laden and the terrorist organization that had attacked us. Intelligent reports from many reports, including all of our allies, and even some of our not-so-friendly sources pointed to Afganistan as the location of these enemy assailants. Therefore, from a strickly military objective... the order was to go after the enemy that had attacked us.

                          The one thing that we did know... was that Saddam Hussien was as much of an enemy to the Taliban and to those terrorists who had attacked us, as we were! While they may well have been "dancing" about 911, the last thing Iraq would have wanted to see, was any of those terrorist organization in Iraq... and they weren't!

                          So, instead of going after the terrorist as was our objective... this administration decided it wanted Saddam, and that was a "deriliction of duty"... the objective was not another country or another problem or anything else. The objective was to get Bin Laden and those who he commanded. And to that objective the Bush administration neglected and charged in a different direction. Any other military officer who did that (and Commander and Chief is the top officer) would have been summarily court martialed, IMHO.

                          The problem of course is that the "fabrication" drew members of all parties into the frey. In the aftermath of the invasion, we can all say that it was justified, and we can all point to the "good" of it all. But I do NOT think so, for many reason. We act like this campaign was a great success and the facts tell a much different story. This war is not over, Iraq is not a done deal, and the number of sacrifises and the number of "terrorists" that have come out of this has grown dynamically and is still growing and possibly will for decades to come.

                          CWS

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                          • #43
                            Re: War with Iran?

                            Save the spin CWS....those democrats were as much at fault as Bush, and thats the bottom line.

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                            • #44
                              Re: War with Iran?

                              And so it goes, Flux... no matter what the facts of the case, there are those who refuse to see. You are certainly not alone, sadly. You're views are clear, and you only see the "evil" as you wish to see it. We do agree on the fact that it is a total waste of time to say anything different than what you have set your mind on.

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                              • #45
                                Re: War with Iran?

                                Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                                no matter what the facts of the case, there are those who refuse to see.
                                You should probably take some of your own advice first, before you try to preach to others.

                                It's only a waste of time to those who are losing the argument.

                                https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/...q_Oct_2002.htm
                                Last edited by Flux; 03-13-2012, 06:27 PM.

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