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  • #46
    Re: Ban The Apple! WELDING ??

    Frank should all Us welders go back to Gas welding n Hot Rivets ?? Sure would Miss My MM 210 n Gases,Lincoln Weld N power, LN 22.
    I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

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    • #47
      Re: Ban The Apple! WELDING ??

      Originally posted by toolaholic View Post
      Frank should all Us welders go back to Gas welding n Hot Rivets ?? Sure would Miss My MM 210 n Gases,Lincoln Weld N power, LN 22.
      Of course not Tool, but I still trust that NHMaster has a handle on his situation. Would you agree that high tech, costly machines that cannot be properly maintained serve little purpose in schools? Unless you want costly paperweights there needs to be sufficient funding to support those things and I'm not sure if it's available. I am not against more efficient equipment and machines, I am against school administrators buying costly items they have not thought through properly. Businesses put a lot of thought into a purchase and can better recoup the money than schools. If the money is there to support repairs and materials, then go for it and let the students get a jump on things, if not it would be unwise to make the initial purchase in my opinion.

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      • #48
        Re: Ban The Apple!

        Originally posted by Pipestone Kid View Post
        Frank, No doubt you will respond to this, but after serving as a teacher and an administrator in a vocational school, I understand NHM's frustration, but I have seen practically every teacher go through the same thing when "there isn't any money left in the budget". As far as your statement--" You see, unlike the real world, schools are not the place for very expensive complicated machines that require highly trained techs and costly repairs and maintenance."--I think you better go visit a voc. school and find out for yourself. Things are not like they were when you were fourteen. One other thing, I agree that cell phones etc that are not related to the program being offered have no place being there.
        Kid, you have a different experience than I do and I trust you know what you are talking about. The only vocational public school in my area called wright tech, closed. There is nowhere for kids to learn the trades thanks to budget issues and choices by the boards of education. There is no place to visit that I know of and that's a problem. Even in situations where a specific industry donates a piece of machinery, there must be funding to support it's use and repair. I hope your experience is more the rule of the day than mine because we need skilled tradespeople, machinists, welders, etc. Where I live in CT and from what I see on the news, many school districts all over the country are facing budget cuts and are cutting programs. I think it's great if a school can afford high tech gear and machines, I just think the process goes beyond an initial purchase. I'm glad you are willing to have this conversation because it's good to get other perspectives. I only know what I know, but I'm always willing to listen and learn. Thanks
        Last edited by Frankiarmz; 03-22-2012, 12:31 PM.

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        • #49
          Re: Ban The Apple!

          Frank, I don't know what the "rules " are in your area or in NHM's area, but in Mn. equipment purchases start with a request from the program. That request must be supported by the programs advisory committee ( a group of individuals not connected to the school who are from the industry the program is training for. Each committee is comprised of both labor and management.) Without that support, the request is dead in the water. After the request is forwarded to the Admin, the administrators have to prioritize the requests. This is a difficult job (you know there is never enough money to go around) and most schools have a definite format that they follow to insure fair treatment. Also, money that is allocated to the school comes in different categories. Capital monies cannot be diverted to salaries or supplies. It can only be used for equipment and or repairs. Many of the advisory members are active in getting current equipment donated to the schools they are working with. One example from the school I was with, the printing advisory committee was successful in getting a million dollar pagenation system donated to the school. I could list dozens of other examples, but you get the idea. Many industries also donate supplies.

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          • #50
            Re: Ban The Apple!

            Kid, that sounds like a reasonable system and industry donations and support ultimately helps them as well. I don't even have a reference point from which to work since they suspended classes in the only tech/vocational school I know of in the area (several big cities). I understand that there has always been a struggle for available funds, but now it seems that the money is not there to keep basic programs running. My city has several big box stores and many other businesses, plenty of homes paying plenty of taxes, so why the budget crisis?
            I guess with inflation, storm damage, property sales and other things the money is just not there?

            I know a young man who graduated from that tech/vocational school I mentioned about three years ago. He majored in automotive work and upon graduating he could not find employment. He said there were too many qualified mechanics and too few jobs. I want to see our young people learning skills that will enable them to work, but there must be jobs for them.

            My younger daughter is going to culinary college and most of her friends are also going to college, except for one who is going to beauty school. Who knows, she may actually find sustainable work while her college friends discover finding work after graduation difficult?

            I retired about ten years ago and while I was still working we had a big influx of college graduates. These young guys were not happy to be working as utility linemen after years of working to attain college educations. I could see their frustration but felt they should have been thankful to be working at a job I felt lucky to have.

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            • #51
              Re: Ban The Apple!

              Kid; the rules are the same all over I suspect. Big ticket items have to go through the process you described above in order to be approved for Perkins grant funds. I have to tell you though that I believe I have probably one of the best if not the best equipped plumbing and HVAC labs on the east coast. It's pretty well outfitted with both modern and some older equipment as well. 90%+ of the instruction in my class is hands on. The students get to work with some pretty cool stuff here and still, I have a hard time competing with smart phones.
              sigpic

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              • #52
                Re: Ban The Apple!

                I know exactly how you feel. When I was teaching, I had to compete with IBM Selectrics and then PC's. It helped me to be more understanding when I moved into admin and got to work with all the different programs.

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                • #53
                  Re: Ban The Apple!

                  NHM (and all forum friends),

                  I have to admit to completely agreeing with you on this subject regarding the purchase of new technology (the IPads in this case) without a justification of exactly what is expected out of them and what the application of these will serve. Money is tight and as you stated, there certainly seems to be better applications for the few $$ that are available.

                  I watched this kind of thing happen in with my employer. Big place, at one time the largest compressor manufacturing plant in the world. Through the 90's we spent a bloody fortune buying computers, and buying them for just about everybody. At one time we had about 100 clerical and secretarial people. Guys like me, a writer, used a yellow pad and a pen and when I was done, it would go to the secretary for final typing. The boss would write his business letters the same way and then pass them to the secretary for her skills. A typewriter was basically less than $1K, usuall half of that. Paper usage was also quite modest in that a 500 sht ream could last two to three months.

                  But when we bought our first five computers (at $4K a piece) for the publications department, everyone wanted one... first the secretaries, then the clerks, engineers, and of course every boss, regardless of how many people he or she managed. The cost came down pretty quick, but still they were about $3K a piece and of course they needed printers, often a printer for each computer. Then networking and department lasers and the "need" went on an on and is still growing. Instead of buying one pallet of paper for the whole plant per year, we were going through almost that much for just two departments. Xerox copiers proved the same way, and even though we went for years without the need for a copier, our first year with one consumed almost a pallet load of paper, just in our little 12-employee group. Everybody was copying everything, printing everything, filing everything (our file cabinets expanded ten-fold).

                  The sad fact of all of this is that the expense to the company was dramatic. Typewriters lasted a decade or more, but computers are barely useable after three years. While I've had a computer since 1978, and have always been productive with it, I plainly could see that most people simply are not. We got rid of all but about six secretaries in the facility, and we largely reduced "clerical" positions... but the cost and inefficiency was almost a joke. Engineers and management now attempting to do thier own documentation, a dozen PC maintenance people hired, networking staff, data facilitators, etc. The PC support staff is now one of the biggest depts there, almost exceeding "engineering" which was the core of our business (the "bean counters" surpassed even them though). Now everyone produces paper, lots and lots and lots of paper... and it's all filed in cabinets like it was in the 50's. E-mail and more E-mail all copied to everybody, and little difference between "business" stuff and "waste of time" stuff flying through the net cables.

                  You walk through the place and you see management and others, sucking up bandwidth with constant monitoring of CNBC stocks, news, and personal "lookings". Any number of people playing games, or just browsing or sending silly stuff back and forth to each other. What a terrible waste of what should be a wonderful resource.

                  On a personal note, I've been out the last eight days. A week ago Friday, I got a Windows Vista "upgrade"!!! You know, one of those unsolicited downloades when you go to shutoff your computer. Well, when it rebooted my anti-virus program was glowing "RED"... the update had corrupted it. Not only that, but gone also was my MalwareBytes, my System Mechanic, my touch pad, the cursor, and four other programs. It's taken me a couple of dozen hours over the last week to get every thing back (well, almost everything). "System Restore" was only slightly helpful and I was still left with the loss of my system maintenance and anti-virus protections, as well as three quite corrupted programs.

                  Frustrated, I went seeking some help... NONE from Microsoft. The "Geek Squad" wanted $200, Staples wante $100 (for this one time occurance), and the local independants wanted $100 or more. I even thought of just buying a new laptop, but at $600 that seemed rather stupid, considering how quickly and easily this kind of thing could happen again.

                  I likened this to buying gas for my four-year old car and finding out the next morning that it wouldn't run. The excuse being the gas company changed it's formulation! No responsibility there, as the response (like Microsoft's) was that it's not responsible for the engineering of my car (and maybe I should just "upgrade"). (I think the PC and Microsoft business has gotten to be rather ridiculous in their lack of responsibility toward their customers.)

                  So, about Wednesday I'm beginning to think that maybe I'm really the dumb one... why am I going through all of this frustration and expense of buying a new PC every few years, just to keep on top of things and just to keep up with the glutonous software programs. I bought my first computer in 1978 and since then I've had more than I can count. (Maybe ten or 12.) Of all of those, I only had one that actually failed because of circuit problem. I've still got five of them and they all still do what I purchased them for. The programs have gotten better, faster, more capable... but at what price? It's the hardware that always needs to be upgraded to handle the new software.

                  Then I thought, "Hey, I'm retired...what do I need to keep spending the money for... to give you guys my unwanted opinion on politics? Help some guy who can't read his manual? Maybe share a joke or two here and there? Of course I get to learn a lot from all you guys and that's very nice, but the hours of frustration and the cost of doing that in time and money gets to be rather expensive I think.

                  So here I am, finally with my laptop back online, thanks mostly to my own efforts. But now I'm seriously looking at the time I'm spending with this thing and wondering if maybe I need to get a life, spend more time in the shop, or maybe just getting away from the keyboard and doing something happier. I'm sort of in a bad spot right now with my thoughts and I'm beginning to question who is the master of this thing we call technology and computing. I'm really wondering if the cost in time and money is as great a value as I've made it out to be. I'm thinking it isn't. But understand, the question isn't really with the PC as much as it is with the "online" thing. I still like to illustrate and write, but I don't need to do that online, except for the minutes it takes to transfer the results. That kind of questioning is really what has kept me from jumping into IPhones, and things like Facebook, and other so-called social media. I guess I'm not seeing the value of it all.

                  CWS

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                  • #54
                    Re: Ban The Apple!

                    CWS, great post as usual! You are just connecting the dots of your life and trying to make some sense of it all. Day before yesterday something happened to my homepage and it took me over an hour to fix it (finally had to do a system restore). Last night my wife's laptop would not shut down, spent two hours working on it, did a system restore and reinstalled Avast free virus protection. The computers have become a necessity for our society, but we still have some control of them in our personal lives. Can we assume eveyone has a touchtone phone by now? IF not how do you respond to automated calls requiring them?

                    CWS, I'm in a rut myself stuck here in a difficult situation. I would love to have a more physical, active life closer to nature but my circumstancesmake that impossible. I am very thankful for computers, the Internet and the Ridgid Forum. Not everyone has a choice to pursue more rewarding endeavors. I enjoy your posts, but if you can get out and do things that make you happy go for it. Reminds me of "One Flew Over The Cukoo's Nest!" Make a break for freedom and don't look back. Frank

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                    • #55
                      Re: Ban The Apple!

                      A lot of the competition is copying Apple....tablets and phones resemble apple products...like it or not, it is the future and none of it is cheap. I caved last year and got an iphone. It only cost me 50 bucks and it's pretty good. I like the calander and how it syncs to my laptop.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Ban The Apple!

                        It's all the biggest marketing scam of the century. Everybody has internet. Even tho poorest of the poor have internet. For Christ's sakes the African tribal people are walking around with Iphones in their loincloths. We are all connected to this amazing place where we can be constantly bombarded with advertisements, sales pitches, porn and scams and best of all we are all convinced that we have to be. That somehow life will cease to be if we can't twitter our latest thoughts to the world or check show time of some movie we want to go see. Then when we get to the theater we will spend the entire movie twittering or Facebooking or texting our friends rather than watch the movie. We can't possibly find our way in the world without GPS or Mapquest even though in my whole life I NEVER once failed to find the destination I was looking for. It's all so easy now. There should be no excuse for being late for anything anymore what with GPS, calendars, audible reminders etc but still old habits die hard. Now we can sit in front of a 72" flat screen in stunning HD and watch mindless idiots mine for gold or shoot alligators in the head. (can I get an alligator skin cover for my Ipad?) and Oh my yes, don't forget the commercials. I figure you get about 11 minutes of program to the half hour. Notice how the facebook and twitter logos are now popping up in the corner of your TV screen. Like us on Facebook. How about "wish you would all drop dead, you SUCK on Facebook. Everyone is so enamored with this gee wiz graphical interface designed to suck you into spending hour after hour doing NOTHING of real value and before you start furiously typing telling me that I am indeed using a computer to type this, at least I am not playing freeking Angry Birds. Hopefully I am opening some minds up to the folly and ludicriousness of the situation. Everybody needs to put down the gadgets and talk with their kids and their spouses. Leave the toys at home and go for a drive or a hike. Go camping with the family and leave the Ipad home. Turn off the TV and play UNO with the kids. Do you really want to know why kids are so sullen, introverted and unconnected with real people? IT's because they spend the majority of their time staring at a 3 x 5 screen interacting with people while never having to look them in the eye. I do have this laptop and I do have a cell phone (a 19 dollar pay as you go) and I watch TV occasionally and all technology is not bad. As the old saying goes though "Everything in moderation" is the key
                        sigpic

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                        • #57
                          Re: Ban The Apple!

                          NHM, I sure have to agree with you on this one!

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                          • #58
                            Re: Ban The Apple!

                            Sorry guys but I have to disagree in part. I get a kick out of watching them guys struggle to mine gold and "Swamp People" sign me up! real life and it beats mindless sitcoms and sports events. I agree kids need more stimulation and interaction with real people, but if I had access to porn and a 72" high def tv when I was a teenager, I would be anything but sullen

                            I actually defend porn to my wife who watches soap operas. Unlike the soaps, no one on porn is behaving in an antisocial manner and in the end everyone is happy!

                            The technology is not going away so we need to learn to coexist. I think it's in a transition phase and in time adults and kids will return to the real world. There are plenty of people who use the Internet and these gadgets to enhance their lives, my opposition to them is the expense and the need for folks to find the proper balance in using them.

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                            • #59
                              Re: Ban The Apple!

                              Well, we take our pleasures where we can I guess. Lot to be said for personal freedoms... as long as they don't enfringe on others, that is.

                              Me... well, I'm an old movie fan. I get little to no pleasure out of most of today's TV network trash. Reality shows are very rarely "reality" and I'm very good at spotting "setup's" and other contrivances that are supposed to be "real". I love (NOT) one of those restaurant shows that my wife watches on the Food Channel where they build a new restaurant in only a matter of hours and it's supposed to be a "reality" contest. Like the guy painting the walls with only 15 minutes left before the grand opening... or the Cupcake Wars where they have only 20 minutes to decorate 500 cupcakes by hand.... or all that "Survivor" intrigue or how many time (and shows) am I going to see where the rotating crane, smacks the unwarery guy into oblivion. Naw, I think I'll just hang my entertainment on an old movie, thanks anyway.

                              The subject of "porn" doesn't do much for me, so I'll stay away from that. But, I've often expressed the thought that I wonder very much about a society that considers "sex" to be evil that we have to put an "X" rating on it, but we feel pretty okay with torture and mayhem like "Holloween" and "Nightmare on Elm Street" and other such bloody undertakings. I feel the same way about about all of the "slasher" movies which it seems is okay for our young people to watch but, sex of course is strickly taboo.

                              Ahhh, for a walk in the woods and a starry night, or a winter hike through NY's hills. Some things are beyond joy and adventuresum too.

                              CWS

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                              • #60
                                Re: Ban The Apple!

                                On the subject of personal pleasures, mine would be holding a baby, spending some time on a beach with sand so fine and white it squeaks under my feet and water turquoise and warm. I have a curiosity and desire with the human form so porn serves that purpose more than the grotesque, perversion of sexuality it has become. There was a time when porn was a combination of romance and raw sexuality but that was forty years ago. I enjoy a wide array of music and movies. I admire the skill with which older movies were made, few special effects and yet gripping results. I challenge any married man to not laugh repeatedly while watching "The Seven Year Itch", done with no nudity and no profanity! I don't expect some of those reality shows "Axe Men, Swamp People, Gold Rush, Deadliest Catch" to be spot on accurate. I enjoy taking a peak into other lifestyles and places. Survivor demonstrates some of the worst behavior in people who imagine themselves to be of upstanding character.

                                I have been watching cooking shows for thirty years "The Galloping Gourmet" anyone? They are very popular because folks like to cook and eat. I don't like laugh tracks, I don't like to see food thrown, I don't like to see rude children get laughs at the expense of others. I miss The Love Boat, Magnum P.I., Bonanza and all the other well scripted and acted programs.

                                I really could do just fine without The Internet and tv, but I would need a different environment and diversions. We don't need these things to be happy and fill our time, most folks have just fallen into a habit of using them for entertainment and relaxation. Give me a passionate woman to embrace and love, a tropical beach, and simple things to keep me going ,and you can have all the electronics and technology. Just don't tell my wife

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