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  • #16
    Re: More on tax havens

    A major point of the article was the corporate tax code and how it related to modern corporations.
    This follow up opinion piece sums it up pretty well.
    U.S. must halt incentives for corporate tax dodges

    He does not begrudge them taking advantage of the system as it is, but finds fault in their concurrent lobbying efforts to enhance their advantages.


    • #17
      Re: More on tax havens

      After paying payroll taxes since January I agree with Ron Paul that the federal government should be more transparent with its true cost and move the responsibility to the worker. Allow the employer to Pay out the full wage to its employee and the employee now can write the check and watch the money leave their account . Only then can workers feel the pain of the government s burden.


      • #18
        Re: More on tax havens

        Then and only then will the voter start to care enough to vote out the self serving jerks who produce nothing and just spend other peoples money.


        • #19
          Re: More on tax havens

          a lot of it is that the Federal government has continue to reach into lives and responsibilities that it was never intended to have according to the Constitution, the jsut a few major areas,
          they are defense of the nation, and the currency, and interstate commerce, and our dealings over seas, and the rest was to be a state issue,

          the is the reason the feds are in debt, is there putting there fingers in the lives of every one, and trying to control and manipulate ever segment either by subsidies or taxes, or a combination of both,

          It is not do to the fact that they do not TAX enough, it is that they spend to much and in areas they are not even give constitutional responsibility's to deal with,


          many are bitching about the corporations and there TAX, breaks,

          Do you take the deductions that are available to you as an individual?
          do you take the rebates or credits that are available to you as a tax payer,
          to you accept your tax refund if you qualify for one?

          how is that different than a corporation?
          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
          attributed to Samuel Johnson
          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.


          • #20
            Re: More on tax havens

            many are bitching about the corporations and there TAX, breaks,

            Do you take the deductions that are available to you as an individual?
            do you take the rebates or credits that are available to you as a tax payer,
            to you accept your tax refund if you qualify for one?

            how is that different than a corporation?

            The difference is in the sophistication of the application of those deductions, rebates and credits as well as the lobbying that proceeded the placement of such into the tax code by the Congress.
            You and I don't have the monetary means or access to expertize that corporations and high net worth individuals have. And, even if we did, the potential upside in tax savings are not there. As an older and wiser man once told me, "All the deductions and credits in the world aren't worth a hill of beans if you don't have the income to write them off against".
            In other words, in principle corps are like us when it comes to taxes. However, in scale they're in a whole other ball park.

            Plus, they have the means (unavailable to me and you) to enhance their advantages by the use of lobbyists to persuade our less then scrupulous legislators.
            Case in point;
            Remember income averaging and the original IRA? Both of these were a boon to the middle class. Gone now because congress had to stem the bleeding and we (the middle class) didn't have the juice (eg., lobbying power) to prevent their demise. If we had, maybe our representatives (ha) would have actually represented us and found someone else [corporations, the wealthy) to pick on. If it weren't for the elderly, who vote religiously, you'd have probably said goodbye to SS (the middle class' greatest benefit) as well.


            • #21
              Re: More on tax havens

              Tax havens are amongst the world's most popular and well respected tax havens. An estimated $100 billion or more in tax revenue is lost every year to tax havens. We are even more flexible! As more and more capital flows into one tax haven, lining the pockets of local movers and shakers, other countries look on in envy.
              tankless water heaters


              • #22
                Re: More on tax havens

                the US has the second highest tax rate for corperations in the world.

                what more do you want?

                and besides most likley, most of the companies that your concerned with are public held companies that I would guess have stock holders that are or have been invested in my the same companies that hold your IRA's and other retirment investments,

                my guess a lot of this discussion is the reporting of proffits of some of the world largest companies, and mostly oil companies, please read the second artical I think it is a ver good editoral on the subject,

                Oil Industry Profit Margin Ranks Fairly Low: There Are Bigger Fish - Seeking Alpha
                As the table below shows, the Integrated Oil and Gas industry made an average profit of 6.2 cents per dollar of sales, which ranks #114 out of 215 industries by profit margin, and puts oil companies right in the middle of industries by profitability.
                Rank Industry Net Profit Margin
                1 Closed-End Fund - Equity 81%
                2 Publishing - Periodicals 51.7
                3 Silver 44.7
                4 Closed-End Fund - Foreign 38.3
                5 REIT - Diversified 36
                6 Copper 24
                7 Internet Information Providers 23.8
                8 Application Software 22.7
                9 Foreign Utilities 20.5
                10 Industrial Metals and Minerals 20.1
                11 Gold 20.1
                12 Cigarettes 19.8
                13 Semiconductor - Broad Line 19.2
                14 REIT - Healthcare Facilities 19.1
                15 Lumber, Wood Production 17.7
                16 Semiconductor - Integrated Circuits 17.6
                17 Diversified Investments 17.5
                18 Healthcare Information Services 16.6
                19 Beverages - Brewers 16.5
                20 Regional - Southwest Banks 16.4
                21 Semiconductor- Memory Chips 16.1
                22 Publishing - Books 16.1
                23 Networking and Communication Devices 15.7
                24 Drug Manufacturers - Major 15.4
                25 Long Distance Carriers 15.2
                26 Railroads 15
                27 Beverages - Wineries and Distillers 14.9
                28 Nonmetallic Mineral Mining 14.6
                29 Beverages - Soft Drinks 14.3
                30 Wireless Communications 14.1
                31 Semiconductor Equipment and Materials 14.1
                32 Personal Products 13.9
                33 Personal Computers 13.9
                34 Medical Instruments and Supplies 13.9
                35 Drug Manufacturers - Other 13.6
                36 Security Software and Services 13.2
                37 Property and Casualty Insurance 13.2
                38 Agricultural Chemicals 13
                39 Specialty Chemicals 12.7
                40 REIT - Residential 12.7
                41 Biotechnology 12.7
                42 Medical Appliances & Equipment 12.6
                43 Technical and System Software 12.5
                44 Mortgage Investment 12.5
                45 Entertainment - Diversified 12.5
                46 Air Services, Other 12.4
                47 Diversified Electronics 11.9
                48 Processed and Packaged Goods 11.5
                49 Foreign Regional Banks 11.5
                50 Water Utilities 10.9
                51 Semiconductor - Specialized 10.5
                52 Money Center Banks 10.5
                53 Consumer Services 10.5
                54 Broadcasting - TV 10.5
                55 Regional - Midwest Banks 10.4
                56 Toys and Games 10.1
                57 Textile - Apparel Footwear 10.1
                58 Restaurants 10
                59 Investment Brokerage - National 10
                60 Oil and Gas Drilling and Exploration 9.9
                61 Paper and Paper Products 9.8
                62 Foreign Money Center Banks 9.8
                63 Regional - Northeast Banks 9.7
                64 Business Software and Services 9.7
                65 Synthetics 9.5
                66 Scientific and Technical Instruments 9.5
                67 Data Storage Devices 9.5
                68 Internet Software and Services 9.4
                69 CATV Systems 9.3
                70 Specialty Eateries 9.2
                71 Telecom Services - Domestic 9.1
                72 Specialized Health Services 9
                73 Diversified Computer Systems 9
                74 Savings and Loans 8.9
                75 Internet Service Providers 8.9
                76 Conglomerates 8.8
                77 Research Services 8.7
                78 Diversified Machinery 8.7
                79 Education and Training Services 8.4
                80 Independent Oil and Gas 8.3
                81 Industrial Equipment and Components 8.2
                82 General Entertainment 8.2
                83 Diversified Utilities 8.1
                84 Asset Management 8.1
                85 Accident and Health Insurance 8.1
                86 Information and Delivery Services 8
                87 Gas Utilities 8
                88 Business Services 8
                89 Telecom Services - Foreign 7.9
                90 Oil and Gas Equipment and Services 7.9
                91 Insurance Brokers 7.8
                92 Cleaning Products 7.8
                93 Steel and Iron 7.7
                94 Drug Related Products 7.7
                95 Home Furnishing Stores 7.6
                96 Diagnostic Substances 7.6
                97 Auto Parts Stores 7.3
                98 Industrial Electrical Equipment 7.2
                99 Waste Management 7
                100 Confectioners 7
                101 Aerospace/Defense - Major Diversified 7
                102 Publishing - Newspapers 6.9
                103 Jewelry Stores 6.9
                104 Home Health Care 6.9
                105 Computer Based Systems 6.9
                106 Pollution & Treatment Controls 6.8
                107 Lodging 6.8
                108 Communication Equipment 6.7
                109 Aerospace/Defense Products & Services 6.6
                110 Sporting Activities 6.5
                111 Packaging & Containers 6.5
                112 Catalog & Mail Order Houses 6.5
                113 Drugs - Generic 6.3
                114 Major Integrated Oil and Gas 6.2

                Who is "gouging" Whom at the Pumps?
                Who is "gouging" Whom at the Pumps?
                Who is "gouging" Whom at the Pumps?
                Written by JB Williams

                Evil Capitalists or Power Hungry Politicians? Washington Democrats rush to exploit yet another hot button issue warming up for the mid-term elections in November - rising oil & gas prices. It is an issue that affects many Americans and Democrats hope to convince those Americans that greedy Bush oil buddies are to blame. But as usual, the real facts are quite different from the bogus campaign rhetoric...
                Who is getting rich at the gas pumps?

                For starters, many average Americans who hold stock in the oil companies, either directly or indirectly through their 410k or mutual fund. But the fact is, the gross profit margin for a gallon of gas in America today, is what it has always been, on average, .08 cents per gallon, (2.5% at $3.00 per gallon). Though retail gas prices fluctuate with crude prices and supply vs. demand, the gross profit margin per gallon remains roughly the same at all times. (No evidence of price gouging here.)

                However the federal government profits approximately .59 cents per gallon through gasoline taxes, 7 ½ times or 750% that of the oil producers themselves and 20% of the price at the pumps. Pay attention here, Washington liberals are attacking oil companies for their 2.5% gross profit margin, while Washington is profiting 20% per gallon. Democrats answer? Tax some more?

                If oil companies cut their profit margins by 50%, it would drop the price of a gallon of gas by only .04 cents per gallon. If Washington law makers cut their take by 50%, gasoline would cost .30 cents per gallon less. If the federal government didn’t tax gasoline at all, the price per gallon at the pumps would be $2.40 per gallon instead of $3.00 per gallon and the oil companies would still be at a respectable 2.5% gross profit margin. Who is gouging whom?

                Have oil companies sought to inflate gas prices for profit?

                If they did, they would have to do it by increasing their per gallon profit margin. Holding their gross margin at 2.5% (.08 cents per gallon) will result in higher overall profits as consumption rises, and both consumption and prices rise during travel seasons. But it does not demonstrate any effort to “gouge” consumers at the pumps.

                On the other hand, .59 cents per gallon or 20% of retail gasoline prices is certainly a demonstration of an effort to gouge consumers, but by way of taxation from the federal government. The consumer is in fact being gouged at the pumps and they have been for some years now, by our federal and state governments. Who is gouging whom?

                Why have gas prices gone up so much?

                They haven’t. Over the last 20 years, gasoline per gallon has increased roughly 60%, which equals an annual average increase of only 3%, which is less than the average rate of inflation.

                During the same 20 year period however, the salary of every member of Congress has increased 250% or 12.5% per year. More than four times the average rate of inflation. Who is gouging whom? Who looks greedy now?

                Are Americans specifically being gouged by OPEC?

                Quite the opposite. The most expensive places in the world to buy gas are The Netherlands, Norway, Italy, Denmark and Belgium, all of which are now above $7.00 per gallon at the pumps. Of course, all of which are socialist governments with even heavier taxes per gallon than America.

                The least expensive places in the world are Venezuela, Nigeria, Egypt, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, ranging between .15 cents and .95 cents per gallon at their pumps. That’s because these are the largest oil saturated countries in the world.

                America is the single largest consumer of oil products, yet our retail prices are very average in the world market, despite excessive federal taxation. Who is gouging whom?

                Where does all the money go?

                Based upon a $3.00 gallon of gasoline, the average break-down is as follows.

                Gasoline Retailer $.01 cents per gallon
                Oil Company $.08 cents per gallon
                Refining $.29 cents per gallon
                Marketing/Distribution $.32 cents per gallon
                Taxes $.59 cents per gallon
                Cost of crude $1.71 per gallon (delivered)

                Who is gouging who?

                Why is there a wide price variation between locations?

                Gasoline is used by American retailers as a “loss leader” product. A means of attracting consumers into their retail establishment with at best a “break even” product, in an effort to sell other goods and services at a profit. This keeps prices at the pump as low as possible through open competition. The local stations with nothing but gas to sell will be higher per gallon on average of course.

                State to state, additional gasoline taxes and refining requirements as well as distance from the closest refinery are the largest factors. California is particularly high due to their excessive taxation and environmental blend requirements as an example. These added refining requirements also means that California experiences more shortages than any other state. When they run low on supply, they can not import from a neighboring state without violating their more stringent state environmental codes. So who is gouging whom?

                The Democrats answer to every problem, tax it some more?

                Smelling blood in the political waters in an election year makes every issue a campaign issue perfect for exploitation and current consumer complaints over prices at the pumps is no exception.

                Democrats call for an all out attack on those greedy rich oil companies, which is like throwing red meat to their blue state socialist constituents who see not only corporate greed, but capitalism itself as the root of all evil in the world.

                Their answer to high gasoline prices? Launch yet another “independent” (partisan) investigation into high gasoline prices during an election year when winning congressional seats in Washington might be the only thing that can save their failed party from extinction.

                But will attacking the group making the least on a gallon of gas, the group responsible for ongoing exploration and production of gasoline, solve the problem? Should some new “windfall-profit” tax aimed at penalizing American companies for turning a profit be imposed?

                In a word, NO! This attitude is the cause of the problem to the degree you can prove any real problem exists at all. If we should penalize oil companies for making .08 cents per gallon gross profit, how much should we penalize our federal government for making .59 cents per gallon?

                Corporations don’t pay taxes!

                They do collect and remit taxes. But every penny of taxes placed on corporate income is passed on to the consumer in the form of higher retail prices, just like the .59 cents per gallon of federal taxes being collected on behalf of the federal government at the pumps today.

                So will electing Democrats who hope to tax gasoline (or any corporate entity) even more help curb prices at the pump, the supermarket or anywhere else? If so, I’d sure like to hear how?

                How do you think gasoline got to be .59 cents per gallon higher than need be? How do you think our government got to the point of consuming nearly 60% of GDP in the first place?

                You show me where the problem is and who is doing the endless gouging of average Americans?

                Is it the oil companies at .08 cents per gallon? Or is it the government at .59 cents per gallon, for producing absolutely nothing?

                Democrats seek to increase gasoline taxes beyond the current .59 cent per gallon level. Can you explain how this will reduce prices at the pump? No…nobody can. ...

                Attached Files
                Last edited by BHD; 05-11-2012, 09:17 AM.
                Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                attributed to Samuel Johnson
                PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.


                • #23
                  Re: More on tax havens

                  Interesting post BHD,


                  While the U.S. may well have the second highest tax rate, what difference does the "rate" make when we also have so many loopholes and tax "rightoffs" that 2/3rds of American corporations pay absolutely NO taxes at all.

                  For example, if the government tells us that we middle-class workers are going to now have a 90 percent tax rate I think we are all going to believer that is terribly unjust. But, if they then tell us that we will be able to deduct our home and its expenses, our utilities, our transportation costs, our meals, our entertainment, our education and training, our vacations, our medical expenses, and any and all costs pertaining to our children... and in fact they will provide an additional financial subsidy for any exploration, research (and all expenses pertaining to such) for any addition children that we can provide; Doesn't that make that 90% tax not really a burden at all? In fact, wouldn't that actually be a real boom to each and every middle class worker in the country?

                  I get a bit tired of corporate welfare and all the hype that gets published by people who think that lower taxes on business is a good thing... the fact is almost the opposite. As we have lowered taxes and given more breaks and subsidies to business, they in turn have laid off millions of American workers and "off-shored" jobs. They've left behind abandoned buildings, polluted properties, and devastated local budgets that have indebted thier citizenry with sacrifices that have been made to entice these companies to stay or to even come to their communities, only to be abandoned.

                  Just in my local area, these programs for the sake of "business" runs into the $Millions... and the industry has simply walked away and in turn invested $Billions in China. And they use every opportunity to reduce their tax responsibility to as close to zero as possible. And we, the working class are left to hold the bag.

                  Regarding the gasoline issue... hey, there's a lot there to look up and verify or refute. But, let's just frame the answer in this way: Every time the price at the pump surges, the overall economy takes a hit. Everytime the price at the pump surges, the oil company declares "record profits!"!

                  "PROFITS" are those numbers that are arrived at AFTER all of the expenses and costs to that company! Those expenses include everthing including land and sea exploration, geological research, equipment and labor expenses, management, advertising and marketing, political payouts, taxes, and everything else. PROFITS are what is left over, the cream at the top, and what is sought as the objective of everything it does.

                  PROFITS are record breaking and that "flys in the face" of any other spin that big oil proponents can put on it. If in fact that for every 8 cents that the oil company is profiting, and the government is making 59-cents, then we should all be pretty much happy as there such surges should be showing a major dent in the national debt; but, that isn't evident at all.

                  The question of course is whether these numbers are really true and does this factor in the corporate welfare that the government is giving back in the way of subsidies, tax breaks, etc. and whether part of their expense it the government influence that they buy and the $Millions they spend on the propaganda they feed us every day.

                  Last edited by CWSmith; 05-11-2012, 10:55 AM.


                  • #24
                    Re: More on tax havens

                    I took particular notice of this:

                    "Democrats call for an all out attack on those greedy rich oil companies, which is like throwing red meat to their blue state socialist constituents who see not only corporate greed, but capitalism itself as the root of all evil in the world."

                    Quite strange and typical of the Republican right-wing rhetoric. My employer was an active member of the "American Petroleum Institute" and I have read many of the API, Gulf Publising (industy publisher and analyst), as well as other internation petro-chem reports and it is quite clear that manipulation prior to the 2000, 2004, and 2008 elections was taking place in the industry... all to eithe influence the market to make it appear that one political party was better or worse than the other. "Ecomomy" is the name of the game and here we are in anothe election year and once again we are seeing the oil market being manipulated, with higher prices and the pump, lots of rhetoric against the incumbant administration, and lots of deceit and empty promises that have no historic truth from the challenging party.

                    In the background however there is NO oil shortages. We do have an industry that has "shut down" a couple of refineries and we do have major investors who are future trading to drive the market up. All the time we have big oil with record profits and we have record investment by Oil-supported super PACS, that have been legistlated by a Republican dominated Supreme Courts as equal to the American voter. Oil is attempting to influence the election as usual.



                    • #25
                      Re: More on tax havens

                      I agree with CWS, the gross tax rate is like a manufacturer's list price. What is important is the net tax rate on earnings.

                      As for big oil, here's Chevron's recent history (looks to me like they made a 20% profit before taxes and were left with $6 billion and change after taxes. So if you nlook at gross income and taxes paid, it comes out to a 28.6% tax rate. Without looking at the others (Exxon, BP, Shell and Conoco), I would assume their situations to be very close to Chevron's. Between them they had $137 Billion in gross profits last year. They paid a lot more on average than Apple and other children of the new economy. That is probably because intellectual property profits are easier to shelter than real property profits. Hopefully, legislatures worldwide will correct this imbalance.

                      Period Ending Mar 30, 2012Dec 30, 2011Sep 29, 2011Jun 29, 2011
                      Total Revenue
                      60,705,000 59,985,000 68,638,000 64,742,000
                      Cost of Revenue41,236,000 42,311,000 42,978,000 46,019,000
                      Gross Profit 19,469,000 17,674,000 25,660,000 18,723,000

                      Operating Expenses
                      Research Development - - - -
                      Selling General and Administrative3,792,000 4,010,000 4,659,000 6,043,000
                      Non Recurring403,000 386,000 240,000 422,000
                      Others3,205,000 3,313,000 3,215,000 3,257,000

                      Total Operating Expenses - - - -

                      Operating Income or Loss 12,069,000 9,965,000 17,546,000 9,001,000

                      Income from Continuing Operations
                      Total Other Income/Expenses Net - - (637,000)637,000
                      Earnings Before Interest And Taxes12,069,000 9,965,000 13,340,000 13,207,000
                      Interest Expense - - - -
                      Income Before Tax12,069,000 9,965,000 13,340,000 13,207,000
                      Income Tax Expense5,570,000 4,813,000 5,483,000 5,447,000
                      Minority Interest(28,000)(29,000)(28,000)(28,000)

                      Net Income From Continuing Ops6,471,000 5,123,000 4,260,000 11,301,000

                      Non-recurring Events
                      Discontinued Operations - - - -
                      Extraordinary Items - - - -
                      Effect Of Accounting Changes - - - -
                      Other Items - - - -

                      Net Income 6,471,000 5,123,000 7,829,000 7,732,000
                      Preferred Stock And Other Adjustments - - - -
                      Net Income Applicable To Common Shares 6,471,000 5,123,000 7,829,000 7,732,000
                      Currency in USD.