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  • #16
    Re: Our Little Village

    Flux, we agree on why some kids and adults are obese and that banning the bad stuff is not the way to go. I wonder what approaches would work? I mentioned greater access to exercise situations such as playgrounds, adult oriented outdoor fitness courses and gyms. Maybe some kind of incentives like lower insurance rates for better fitness levels? Just because we disagree with the food bans does not mean the problem should not be addressed. Getting away from kids and obesity we still have a big problem of adults who excuse their bad behavior by claiming Constitutional rights. Flux, do you agree that we shouldn't have to pay higher insurance rates, court and prison costs and all the rest that goes with adults acting irresponsible? Our society has gotten real stupid with all sorts of entertainment based around how much we can eat and drink, contests, rewards. I watch a lot of these programs and enjoy them, I just don't want to pay for the medical care as these folks blow up and get sick.

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    • #17
      Re: Our Little Village

      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
      Flux, we agree on why some kids and adults are obese and that banning the bad stuff is not the way to go. I wonder what approaches would work? I mentioned greater access to exercise situations such as playgrounds, adult oriented outdoor fitness courses and gyms. Maybe some kind of incentives like lower insurance rates for better fitness levels? Just because we disagree with the food bans does not mean the problem should not be addressed. Getting away from kids and obesity we still have a big problem of adults who excuse their bad behavior by claiming Constitutional rights. Flux, do you agree that we shouldn't have to pay higher insurance rates, court and prison costs and all the rest that goes with adults acting irresponsible? Our society has gotten real stupid with all sorts of entertainment based around how much we can eat and drink, contests, rewards. I watch a lot of these programs and enjoy them, I just don't want to pay for the medical care as these folks blow up and get sick.
      There are a lot of things I don't want to pay for...but I do whether it's right or wrong. To me, there are far more important issues that need to be addressed, before we start talking about prisons and food.

      Not to hi-jack the thread Frank, but I thought about you last night (no homo...lol) and wanted to tell you this and get your reaction. Right now in Pennsylvania, a bill is moving through the house that would fund schools in the state by other means like higher income tax and sales tax. The bill would absolutely do away with property taxes...and your reaction would be? The reason this bill was crafted is because the seniors and other citizens of this fine state are fed up of losing/moving out of their homes, cause they can no longer afford the property taxes going to the school district.

      Your thoughts?

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      • #18
        Re: Our Little Village

        Originally posted by Flux View Post
        There are a lot of things I don't want to pay for...but I do whether it's right or wrong. To me, there are far more important issues that need to be addressed, before we start talking about prisons and food.

        Not to hi-jack the thread Frank, but I thought about you last night (no homo...lol) and wanted to tell you this and get your reaction. Right now in Pennsylvania, a bill is moving through the house that would fund schools in the state by other means like higher income tax and sales tax. The bill would absolutely do away with property taxes...and your reaction would be? The reason this bill was crafted is because the seniors and other citizens of this fine state are fed up of losing/moving out of their homes, cause they can no longer afford the property taxes going to the school district.

        Your thoughts?
        Flux, that was a funny opening line! I can't imagine how the towns could fund schools without property taxes by creating new taxes or raising existing ones. My property taxes are close to $8,000.00 a year, how much would they have to raise sales and income taxes to make that up? You would have folks leaving your state so they wouldn't have to pay those higher taxes.

        Senior citizens and homeowners who don't have kids have always complained that they should not have to pay school taxes, but in theory they benefit from an educated populace. I think here in CT there is some tax break for seniors but I'm not sure and don't know if it makes a difference? I hate to see folks forced out of their homes because the economy got so bad. I am friendly with a couple neighbors who are in their late sixties. we talk about the economy all the time and I joked with them that the government needs to get all these old folks out of their homes, seize their cars and assets and put them in internment camps. They didn't exactly laugh but I know I have a sick sense of humor some times. I really wish I had some answers to the problem but I just don't see the math to fix the mess!

        I don't know about Pennsylvania, but most states and towns are hurting as folks lose their homes and taxes don't get collected on abandoned properties. I think we need Americans to be working and paying taxes. We also need government at every level to spend within their means and have a balanced budget just like responsible folks. In my opinion the teachers and other unionized workers as well as small business owners would not need ever increasing incomes if inflation stopped rising. That can't happen with the rising cost of fuel to transport goods. Sorry if I got sideways but there is just so much out of whack, so much wrong and so few folks who know where to start or who to blame. I don't think it will matter much if the healthcare bill gets repealed, if unions are crushed, taxes frozen or anything else,
        if Americans continue to pay other folks to make what we consume, we are doomed.

        Put a hundred pennies on the table and set a few aside for your expenses, housing, food, taxes, all of it. Now take a few pennies and put them towards all the goods you buy that are foreign made, your clothes, appliances, electronics. all of it. That last group of pennies never come back to our economy, they are gone forever. We can't stay afloat with those holes in our boat, no matter how or who we tax, who we fire or whose pay and benefits we cut.

        I think no matter what happens in Wisconsin America loses. Workers will never keep up with inflation, so unions are doomed to fail regardless of their bargaining powers. I don't think we can tighten our belts to a sustainable and strong economy, so that just won't work long term. We need jobs, we need to make what we consume, we need to take care of America. President Obama couldn't fix a darn thing even if he tried and I doubt Romney will succeed although he will get my vote. How can we provide healthcare for everyone,including illegals if we are trillions in debt? Please, someone explain to me how mixed up I am about the economy and that it will all work out just fine. Good night, Frank

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        • #19
          Re: Our Little Village

          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
          Flux, that was a funny opening line! I can't imagine how the towns could fund schools without property taxes by creating new taxes or raising existing ones. My property taxes are close to $8,000.00 a year, how much would they have to raise sales and income taxes to make that up? You would have folks leaving your state so they wouldn't have to pay those higher taxes.

          Senior citizens and homeowners who don't have kids have always complained that they should not have to pay school taxes, but in theory they benefit from an educated populace. I think here in CT there is some tax break for seniors but I'm not sure and don't know if it makes a difference? I hate to see folks forced out of their homes because the economy got so bad. I am friendly with a couple neighbors who are in their late sixties. we talk about the economy all the time and I joked with them that the government needs to get all these old folks out of their homes, seize their cars and assets and put them in internment camps. They didn't exactly laugh but I know I have a sick sense of humor some times. I really wish I had some answers to the problem but I just don't see the math to fix the mess!

          I don't know about Pennsylvania, but most states and towns are hurting as folks lose their homes and taxes don't get collected on abandoned properties. I think we need Americans to be working and paying taxes. We also need government at every level to spend within their means and have a balanced budget just like responsible folks. In my opinion the teachers and other unionized workers as well as small business owners would not need ever increasing incomes if inflation stopped rising. That can't happen with the rising cost of fuel to transport goods. Sorry if I got sideways but there is just so much out of whack, so much wrong and so few folks who know where to start or who to blame. I don't think it will matter much if the healthcare bill gets repealed, if unions are crushed, taxes frozen or anything else,
          if Americans continue to pay other folks to make what we consume, we are doomed.

          Put a hundred pennies on the table and set a few aside for your expenses, housing, food, taxes, all of it. Now take a few pennies and put them towards all the goods you buy that are foreign made, your clothes, appliances, electronics. all of it. That last group of pennies never come back to our economy, they are gone forever. We can't stay afloat with those holes in our boat, no matter how or who we tax, who we fire or whose pay and benefits we cut.

          I think no matter what happens in Wisconsin America loses. Workers will never keep up with inflation, so unions are doomed to fail regardless of their bargaining powers. I don't think we can tighten our belts to a sustainable and strong economy, so that just won't work long term. We need jobs, we need to make what we consume, we need to take care of America. President Obama couldn't fix a darn thing even if he tried and I doubt Romney will succeed although he will get my vote. How can we provide healthcare for everyone,including illegals if we are trillions in debt? Please, someone explain to me how mixed up I am about the economy and that it will all work out just fine. Good night, Frank
          I don't know all of the details yet on this bill, except for the 2 things I mentioned, but it will be interesting to see if it passes in this state. You know how I feel about the Union part of the equation, so no need for me to go down that road. For me as a homeowner now, I just want to see a different way to fund schools, so the school districts don't have a gun to a homeowners head over property taxes.

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          • #20
            Re: Our Little Village

            There is an underlining thread to all of this, to much federal power. The federal government has gotten so large, and its over bearing regulations up all the states. Take a look at the EPA, for example, it regulates things that the states should be deciding for themselves. The Department of Education is one of the worst offenders, it places restrictions, rules, requirements, etc on each and every state. What has it gotten us? A piss poor educational system, that's what. There is a state that is looking to abolish state funded schools and turn them over to private run companies. I pray that it happens and works so well that the DoE gets scrapped and the rest of the country follows suit.

            On the fatty issue. Frank, you answered your own question on how to solve it. Hit them in the pocket book. If not for government regulations (and only getting worse under obamacare) insurance companies don't charge more. Allow them to jack up the rates on over weight people, including kids. Make it painful to be in the "obese" category. Now, this isn't something mandated by government but a market force applying the correct cost to a good sold. No different than an insurance company charging you more on your auto policy because of tickets and accidents. Some people think its not fair to do this, I think its unfair I have to pay for their fat ***.... But, I don't want government involved, just allow the insurance companies do as they should be able to...

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            • #21
              Re: Our Little Village

              Just catching up on the "Open Discussion" topics, after being away from it for the past week, and I thought this one pretty interesting. While I'm often at a difference with Flux and sometimes with Alpha and Franki, here I find some agreement.

              The restrictions on beverage size and any other food/snack is certainly an example of the Government sticking it's nose into something that it really should have no business doing. But that recognized, none of us have to look very far to see that we are surrounded by "fat". What do we do about that? I think upping the insurance rate on people who are over weight might be a good thing, though I doubt that the it would stand with the "freedoms" issues that we American's so proudly stand up for.

              I've often expressed the opinion that while we should be "free" to do most things, there needs to be a negative side to certain things. Take the example of being "fat". Also consider things like smoking, motorcycle helmets, seat belts, and perhaps other past infringements on our rights. I think in such cases we should be able to do what we want... but then we must also accept responsibility for that and not expect insurance or any other part of society to pay for the results of such decisions. For example, if you become "obese" you should be entirely on you own. No hospitilization or medical care should be paid by insurance, you employer, or any government healthcare. You made that choice long ago. The problem of course is how do you regulate that and how do you differentiate between "fat" as a choice or a medical condition in itself? (I'm sure we would all be standing up and shouting if the government regulated occasional medical exams to sort out who was and who wasn't "fat" and what the cause of that was.)

              I've never smoked, but my father was a two and three pack a day guy. I am opposed to smoking, think it's a stupid and filthy habit, and I don't want to have to smell anybody's smoke. BUT, I think it is almost criminal that the government (at all levels) is making so much money off of it through taxes. While I'm for banning advertising and promoting most kinds of warnings, it seems to me to be a real infringement of our rights to charge so-called "sin-taxes". I do think that if you chose to smoke, you simply should be able to do so at your own risk and when you get sick, that is at your own expense.

              The problem of course is that there are so many things that you can catagorize as "a free choice". You get sick because you become fat, or smoke, or you injure yourself or others because you used your cell phone while driving, played your stereo too loud, or distracted yourself with your GPS, book, or whatever... you choice, but who pays. Same with no helmet, no seatbelt, lousey care of your vehicle, or whatever. Presently we have lots of regulations and mandates, all very expensive to all of us. So, if we free many of these up then who pays for the neglect? I think we agree that we shouldn't have to pay for anyone else's neglect, whether it is their food habits or anything else they freely choose to do.

              I have a neighbor who eats and drinks too much and does too little. They're now too fat to do anything. They're now "disabled"... now how is that fair to you and me who have to pay for that? It would be one thing if it was some kind of "gland condition", but it wasn't... it was a free and knowledgeable choice. Add to thier condition thier smoking and drinking and laziness, and such a person simply becomes a "burden" to everyone.

              "Education" based on, and supported by, local property taxes is grossly unfair, IMO. I believe this issue was actually taken to court some 20 or 30 years ago in California, as a "Constitutional Issue". (I don't think it went anywhere though.) The premise was that while in a location like "Hollywood" the financial support (school taxes based on realestate property) would enable a far better educational system, then say East LA with it's, at that time, much lower property values. It seems obvious to me, that a kid from the slums would not have anywhere close to the quality of a "Hollywood" school. Of course I don't live there and so don't know the real situation as it existed then: but, you can see that there might be considerable difference in education, based on the income of the particular school district.

              The question of course is how to pay for "public" education and still offer "equal" educational opportunities! "Equal" is essential, otherwise we quickly become an even more divisional society. Living where I do, I can see us going there pretty quickly. In the area where I've lived for the past thirty-five-plus years I've seen what can happen when the largest employer dominates the school-board. The area gets "gerrymandered" and most of the "executive's) kids go to only one school... to the point where they'll drive miles from their nearest school to get to that particular one... And, that one is where most of the improvements are made and where most of new programs and best teachers are established.

              When that gets "questioned" as it has, then the company builds it's own "private school", which it is just now completing. That school will be only for those accepted, and it will be privately funded, and the tuition will be beyond the areas working class. Of course if you work for that particular company, you will most likely find such "tuition" a part of your benefit package. (Just like joining the local "Y"... which was taken over by this company in the mid-70's. "We" can't afford to pay the annual membership fee, and the salaried employees of that company have membership as a "benefit".

              Basically, education should offer equal facility and opportunity. It should not have to depend on local tax funding, which is unequal from one district to another. From a State and Federal level, the funing needs to be based on what though? Obviously if it was based on performance, one could see the "cheating" that has been evidenced in the past few years. If it was based on student-population, then small rural schools would suffer greatly. We need to have as close as possible efforts to provide some equal-opportunity in learning. "Opportunity" however, does not mean that every student will take advantage of that, and certainly there are those parents and students who will clog up the system. How can that ever be addressed?

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              • #22
                Re: Our Little Village

                Holy Christ....I'm going to agree with you CWS!

                We roughly have 12 million people in Pennsylvania, and only 4 million of those people are property owners. So the property tax burden is on 4 million people while 8 million pay nothing. Pennsylvania is laying a plan out to abolish property taxes and get the funding from other places besides what I described above so all 12 million people in this state pitch in for school taxes.
                Last edited by Flux; 06-05-2012, 03:53 PM.

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                • #23
                  Re: Our Little Village

                  Originally posted by Flux View Post
                  Holy Christ....I'm going to agree with you CWS!

                  We roughly have 12 million people in Pennsylvania, and only 4 million of those people are property owners. So the property tax burden is on 4 million people while 8 million pay nothing. Pennsylvania is laying a plan out to abolish property taxes and get the funding from other places besides what I described above so all 12 million people in this state pitch in for school taxes.
                  Bunch of dam liberals! Hey Flux, I'm watching hell freeze over On a positivie note, I think for that tax plan to work all states will need to adopt a similar plan. I like the idea of getting more folks to share the costs and everyone including illegals pay sales tax.

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