Announcement Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.
The People Have Spoken! Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: The People Have Spoken!

    "The gig is up Frank...people simply can't afford the ever rising costs of Unions and their benefits. People are sick and tired of seeing their tax money going to Unions and then handed right to Democratic campaigns. We are going to see a lot more of this over the next few years, and before the Union people start blaming the voter, they should start with their Union official first for promising them things we simply couldn't sustain. " posted by Flux.

    FLux and the rest of the folks outraged by Unions, replace the word "Unions" with working people. Those working people have ever rising living expenses, sound familiar? The same people you expect to accept wage freezes and pay cuts both Union members and non-Union can't afford the ever rising costs of small business folks who support Republican campaigns! You think we are foes, but the truth is that we are on the same losing side in this failed economy. The millions of Union and nonUnion workers in this country and small business owners need to have unemployed Americans working and paying into the system. We all need our governments to spend within their means. We all need the failed policies of both political parties that got us to this point changed.

    I agree, that we cannot afford some of the pay and benefit demands of public employees. We cannot afford $100.00 an hour to have our cars repaired, medicaid and social security fraud, wars, an illegal population, or many or the other unsustainable expenses burdening'"All" of us taxpayers. I think we need to join together rather than argue with eachother, we are in this struggle together in my opinion. Teachers and other public workers deserve our respect for the work they do just the same as tradespeople. Let's not forget there are lazy, criminal bums in all professions, that should not distract us from the greater problem of our failed economy. Frank

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: The People Have Spoken!

      With respect to public workers, I'd much rather see them get paid slightly more so that we attract and retain the right kind of talent. At the same time, related to reform, I believe the concept of a pension and generous health care benefits during and following employment needs to be converted to another model that diminishes the cost impact on taxpayers.

      Since most private sector employees contribute to their own retirement and health care, with the employer usually pitching in some portion as well....can this be applied to public sector employees, union or not?

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: The People Have Spoken!

        Originally posted by JoePolvino View Post
        With respect to public workers, I'd much rather see them get paid slightly more so that we attract and retain the right kind of talent. At the same time, related to reform, I believe the concept of a pension and generous health care benefits during and following employment needs to be converted to another model that diminishes the cost impact on taxpayers.

        Since most private sector employees contribute to their own retirement and health care, with the employer usually pitching in some portion as well....can this be applied to public sector employees, union or not?
        Joe, I totally agree. There is no "if" that pension costs are unaffordable and unsustainable, so there should be workable efforts to take them out of the bargaining equation. There needs to be a transition to a different model for these costs, but if we ignore the root causes of our 16 trillion dollar debt, and massive unemployment even those good, and necessary ideas will be of little help. Who is working to fix our economy and not look for short term relief? Does anyone understand how consumer spending ties into a good indicator for our economic recovery? If most of our consumer spending is on products made outside of the USA, how does that improve our economy? Seems like we have a bucket full of holes!

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: The People Have Spoken!

          The whole problem of government workers and with teachers (at least the one's that I live near to) is that their benefits and wages are well above the average working class of where they live. One of the problems reported in NY, is the double-dipping that goes on... they not only have their state pension plans, but then quite a few turn around and dip into the Social Security fund, which in many cases (or so I've read) they haven't fully contributed too. I'm not sure how or what regulated thier retirement as opposed to Social Security, but alledgedly their plan here in NY is supposed to remove them from Social Security.

          But, as far as teachers... I have a half-dozen that live around me. They are all paid more on the scale of industrial managers and engineers. I see none of them put in the kind of hours or have the responsibility of the "industrial" people that they seem to be living on the par with, or in many cases well above.

          Every single one of these people are living in houses that are well above average. Every single one of them buy new cars every couple of years and those cars are well more in the $30K range and quite often they are multi-car families. They vacation well too.

          Three of these teachers are now retired, all of them retired in thier early 60's and all of them have received retirement bonuses. In one case that bonus was three times my annual salary at the time. The eldest teacher passed away a few years ago, but in her 30 years of retirement, she traveled Europe, took a couple of trips to Africa, belonged to the local country club. The two other still travel extensibly on thier retirement and the one that I am neighbors with winters in Georgia, where they keep another home. None of these three have working spouses and all of these have easily afforded to send their children on to college, and have thier yards and homes kept by paid workers. These are things that the average working stiff simply cannot afford, and yet it thier taxes that support the long retirements and all the great benefits that teachers seem to have.

          CWS

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: The People Have Spoken!

            CWS, you bring up some good points but if teacher's salaries and benefits were objectionable or offensive years ago then they should have been properly addressed. I wonder how many folks would have put the effort and expense into their educations to become teachers if they were not adequately compensated? I don't know what it takes to become a teacher or to endure years of classroom environment with our darling children. I retired when I turned 48, after 29yrs of service. I wish folks who find that offensive or an abuse could have been with me knee deep in garbage and feces during hot summers, working outside in freezing temperatures and dealing with viscious animals and dangerous people. MY body is broken from years of hard work, and when I can sleep it is with a clear conscience.

            Why are we not outraged by the cost of nonUnion workers? Why are we not upset by wallstreet, ceo's who have ruined our investments, legislators who have pushed their party agenda and still have no plan to fix the mess they encouraged?

            We use tunnel vision to pick and choose who and what offends our sense of what's right while we excuse our own needs and the bad behavior of the folks we elect. I'm fine with what happened in Wisconsin and what is happening around the country. I am not fine with hypocrites who understand their own financial needs but not those who have studied, worked and legally bargained for theirs. I am not alright with folks who find fault with the other political party when their party has been guilty of damaging our country as well. I believe the future will prove our economy needs fixing and all this public worker reform has little to no part in the root cause or fix. Reform is needed in many areas of our economy, but what about the loss of jobs, manufacturing dependence, national debt, trade deficit. This is like putting new drapes on a house in flames. Frank
            Last edited by Frankiarmz; 06-08-2012, 12:51 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: The People Have Spoken!

              Well Franki,

              I think WE are all upset by people who are overpaid. The problem of course with many "union" people is that there was NO choice in the matter. It's sort of like paying for state legislator or you Congressman.... did anybody ever ask you? I guess I could go so far as to say the same about your job, it's pay and benefits and the fact that you retired at 48.... but then I wouldn't want to offend you either. But, I don't recall Verizon ever asking ME, about what it offered it's employee's... the thing there is that your union made demands and because business was great, without competition, and without any say by your customers, you guys got what you demanded. Teachers pretty much get the same thing, except where the voter has a choice about the school budget. But even then, that budget is simply set forward and no voter gets much of a say where the money is going. It pretty much gets lumped under the headline as "being good for your kids".... but is it?

              Now, if you don't like your plumber (and what a heckuva nasty job that can be), you got a choice of looking for someone else. But you can't do that with your kid's teacher, or your state worker, or in a service provider like the telephone or cable company. The price just goes up in sort of a lump-sum manner, and the voter just picks up the tab.

              None of that says that you, or some teacher, or government employee, or service provider ISN't worth that, or even more... but again, everything is lumped together... the good, the bad, and the indifferent. But at some point the voter looks at the way they are living, and what they are paying and what those who are living it quite nicely of those payments are getting. Then we have this kind of backlash!

              CWS

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: The People Have Spoken!

                I can't help but notice that most of the posters who complain about unions, teachers, public service workers etc. have never belonged to any of those groups. Cws hit the nail on the head when he said that everything is lumped together. I don't know what the school situation is like in New York, so I won't comment on it--but I can tell you that in the midwest rural areas, teaching and their salaries are not what I am reading here. The average teacher spends 50 to 60 hours a week in their job and is called on to assist in every project that goes on in the community because " they are civil servants" Don't mention the fact that Joe Schmoo is next door neighbor to the chair of the school board and if his little Susie doesn't get an "A" on her report card the teacher is called to the board meeting to defend the grade Susie received. (which was probably more than she earned)Oh, by the way CWS around here if you bother to go to the school board meetings, you do have a say in how the money is spent. Bottom line is before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. ( If nothing else, you will be a mile ahead of them and have their shoes! )

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: The People Have Spoken!

                  Originally posted by Pipestone Kid View Post
                  I can't help but notice that most of the posters who complain about unions, teachers, public service workers etc. have never belonged to any of those groups.
                  It's no secret what those groups stand for, and being a member or not has no bearing on whether we can comment or not when tax dollars are at stake. We have a voice, and I agree with you on that, but most school boards don't know the word "No" when it comes to the demands of the teach unions. It's always about the children when the teacher unions cry for money, but yet not 1 dime goes towards those children.

                  Neshaminy School district that is currently in the National news for their strike, here are the cold hard facts of what every single teacher makes in that district, and their demands right now are beyond ridiculous, and I don't blame the parents & taxpayers for having a counter protest, as there is no more money for them. Make sure you scroll all the way over the right and see their total compensation.

                  http://www.neshaminytaxpayers.com/Ne...20costs%20.pdf

                  So what did you say about walking in their shoes? I'm willing to bet 100% of the people who read that link would love to follow in their shoes.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: The People Have Spoken!

                    Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                    Well Franki,

                    I think WE are all upset by people who are overpaid. The problem of course with many "union" people is that there was NO choice in the matter. It's sort of like paying for state legislator or you Congressman.... did anybody ever ask you? I guess I could go so far as to say the same about your job, it's pay and benefits and the fact that you retired at 48.... but then I wouldn't want to offend you either. But, I don't recall Verizon ever asking ME, about what it offered it's employee's... the thing there is that your union made demands and because business was great, without competition, and without any say by your customers, you guys got what you demanded. Teachers pretty much get the same thing, except where the voter has a choice about the school budget. But even then, that budget is simply set forward and no voter gets much of a say where the money is going. It pretty much gets lumped under the headline as "being good for your kids".... but is it?

                    Now, if you don't like your plumber (and what a heckuva nasty job that can be), you got a choice of looking for someone else. But you can't do that with your kid's teacher, or your state worker, or in a service provider like the telephone or cable company. The price just goes up in sort of a lump-sum manner, and the voter just picks up the tab.

                    None of that says that you, or some teacher, or government employee, or service provider ISN't worth that, or even more... but again, everything is lumped together... the good, the bad, and the indifferent. But at some point the voter looks at the way they are living, and what they are paying and what those who are living it quite nicely of those payments are getting. Then we have this kind of backlash!

                    CWS
                    CWS, the teachers spent time and money on their education so they could earn a good living. I don't think they are anymore overpaid than tradespeople, or anyone else in this economy. No one is going to ask you about public workers salary and benefit demands, that is why you have folks who negotiate with them. I could not negotiate my own contract, I had to accept what everyone else got.

                    You may think you have a choice when it comes to service providers but when you shop around you realize they are all about the same, not much of a choice. I think the same goes for other professions and trades, no one is giving away their skill because they all need to survive in this failing economy. It's unfortunate more people can't walk a day in other folks shoes, I'm positive they would apologize for assuming they work harder than everyone else. They argue over what the mechanic charges, but have no clue of the difficulty involved in doing some of that work, same goes for plumbers and other skilled workers. Why do folks think teaching is a walk in the park, is it because you don't get dirty? I have respect and compassion for teachers and feel they deserve whatever pay and benefits they can get. Tradespeople have overhead and expenses related to both their work and private lives, teachers have student loans and families. I agree that you, Flux and all taxpayers have a voice in this discussion, I just think the anger and disrespect is misplaced. If kids are not learning, look to the home and the kid, not the teacher. No one commented on what I said in many posts about fixing the root of our economic problems and all that. If you don't want the voters paying higher wages and benefits to public workers, if you don't want to pay more for other skilled labor, food and goods, you need to address inflation and not assume your problems will go away by freezing pay, cutting pay and benfits. The massive problems of unemployment, deficit , government overspending and fraud will still be there negating any temporary savings seen. Frank

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: The People Have Spoken!

                      Originally posted by Flux View Post
                      It's no secret what those groups stand for, and being a member or not has no bearing on whether we can comment or not when tax dollars are at stake. We have a voice, and I agree with you on that, but most school boards don't know the word "No" when it comes to the demands of the teach unions. It's always about the children when the teacher unions cry for money, but yet not 1 dime goes towards those children.

                      Neshaminy School district that is currently in the National news for their strike, here are the cold hard facts of what every single teacher makes in that district, and their demands right now are beyond ridiculous, and I don't blame the parents & taxpayers for having a counter protest, as there is no more money for them. Make sure you scroll all the way over the right and see their total compensation.

                      http://www.neshaminytaxpayers.com/Ne...20costs%20.pdf

                      So what did you say about walking in their shoes? I'm willing to bet 100% of the people who read that link would love to follow in their shoes.
                      FLux, our local newspaper prints a list of city worker high earners every year and it causes an uproar. Some teachers and police make well over $100,000.00. Those folks work all sorts of overtime, but it still upsets a lot of taxpayers. My base pay before I retired was 50K the most I made with overtime was around 65K but there were some guys who made over 100K. I think they must have lived on the job?
                      I understand the need to address these salaries you showed and the salaries and benefits of public workers around the nation. State and city governments are broke, they can't afford these costs! I get it! Do you get that there is an even bigger problem? Pull back for a minute from your immediate serious concern and try to figure out how the 16 trillion dollar debt, trade deficit, tens of millions of unemployed Americans and the rest of my rant will get fixed because when those things reach their breaking point it will make this thread and discussion seems like child's play. I think we are on the verge of something beyond most people's imagination, please see the bigger picture beyond the temporary local and state budget issues. Frank

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: The People Have Spoken!

                        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                        FLux, our local newspaper prints a list of city worker high earners every year and it causes an uproar. Some teachers and police make well over $100,000.00. Those folks work all sorts of overtime, but it still upsets a lot of taxpayers. My base pay before I retired was 50K the most I made with overtime was around 65K but there were some guys who made over 100K. I think they must have lived on the job?
                        I understand the need to address these salaries you showed and the salaries and benefits of public workers around the nation. State and city governments are broke, they can't afford these costs! I get it! Do you get that there is an even bigger problem? Pull back for a minute from your immediate serious concern and try to figure out how the 16 trillion dollar debt, trade deficit, tens of millions of unemployed Americans and the rest of my rant will get fixed because when those things reach their breaking point it will make this thread and discussion seems like child's play. I think we are on the verge of something beyond most people's imagination, please see the bigger picture beyond the temporary local and state budget issues. Frank
                        Frank, I think both issues are a huge problem.

                        I couldn't believe the other day when I heard the Dems wanted to do another stimulus...umm...what?

                        Well anyways, your President said today the private sector is fine, and he's only worried about the public sector (Unions), until he realized he made a gaffe and had to clarify those outrageous statements.

                        The biggest question facing our country is, has everyone had enough of the community organizer yet?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: The People Have Spoken!

                          Flux--I read your chart and I agree that if that chart is accurate, I wouldn't mind "walking in those shoes". However, as CWS said, don't lump all of them together. My daughter teaches in a rural Mn. school and I compared her years of teaching, education etc. to one on the chart that matched hers and she doesn't get a total compensation ( or salary etc) that is half of what the person on that chart gets. Maybe Mn. people are more involved or Mn. teachers are more realistic than yours. I do know this--If I , or anyone else started using Roto Rooter as the "standard" for all plumbers, I think their would probably be a "contract on me.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: The People Have Spoken!

                            Originally posted by Flux View Post
                            Frank, I think both issues are a huge problem.

                            I couldn't believe the other day when I heard the Dems wanted to do another stimulus...umm...what?

                            Well anyways, your President said today the private sector is fine, and he's only worried about the public sector (Unions), until he realized he made a gaffe and had to clarify those outrageous statements.

                            The biggest question facing our country is, has everyone had enough of the community organizer yet?
                            Flux, unfortunately he is "our" President and problem. Yes, I voted for him ( sorry, sorry, a thousand times sorry) but at the time I was not pleased with the republican administration. I will vote republican regardless of how it goes against my grain. My bottom line is do the job or lose it, and that goes for the President too! I just hope enough people realize how President Obama failed to deliver and offers nothing better going forward! Frank

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: The People Have Spoken!

                              Hmmmm, overpaid. I am in the top 1/3rd on the pay scale in our district. I get a whopping 56K a year for my efforts and responsibilities. Of that, my insurance takes 17K right off the top. Still think teaching is a lucrative job. The number one reason why 5 out of 7 teachers quit in the first 5 years is because they can make much much more money working in the private sector. That's right folks, 5 out of 7 teachers won't make it past 5 years. That means that there is a constant flow of teachers through the system all bringing with them their own particular methods and lack of experience. Young people fresh out of college with stars in their eyes and a desire to teach and mold children get chopped up and spit out by a system that pretty much treats them like second class citizens. You don't want to pay teachers what they are worth and yet you are the first to complain when your kid comes out of 12 years in the school system and doesn't know what the capitol of the United States is. I have an idea, Why not home school your kids and save a ton of money. Oh, I know why not. That would be because a whole lot of you don't want the responsibility and hassle of having your kids at home 24 hours a day. If nothing we do also provide a handy baby sitting service. If you cared about your kids education you would be more than willing to pay teachers what they are worth and what they are worth is priceless. Your kids and the people that teach and mold them are the future of the world. You think the getting rid of collective bargaining is a good thing? How about your boss says to you, "hey pal, I'm only going to pay you 3/4's what you made last year and if you don't like it, take a hike" Last year they finally gave us a step raise after we the UNION members agreed to hold salaries for the past 4 years. That step was nice but not nice enough to cover the increased cost of our new health insurance policy.

                              So I'll put it to you. What is a qualified, dedicated and skillful teacher worth to you and your children?
                              Last edited by NHMaster3015; 06-08-2012, 08:37 PM.
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: The People Have Spoken!

                                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                                Hmmmm, overpaid. I am in the top 1/3rd on the pay scale in our district. I get a whopping 56K a year for my efforts and responsibilities. Of that, my insurance takes 17K right off the top. Still think teaching is a lucrative job. The number one reason why 5 out of 7 teachers quit in the first 5 years is because they can make much much more money working in the private sector. That's right folks, 5 out of 7 teachers won't make it past 5 years. That means that there is a constant flow of teachers through the system all bringing with them their own particular methods and lack of experience. Young people fresh out of college with stars in their eyes and a desire to teach and mold children get chopped up and spit out by a system that pretty much treats them like second class citizens. You don't want to pay teachers what they are worth and yet you are the first to complain when your kid comes out of 12 years in the school system and doesn't know what the capitol of the United States is. I have an idea, Why not home school your kids and save a ton of money. Oh, I know why not. That would be because a whole lot of you don't want the responsibility and hassle of having your kids at home 24 hours a day. If nothing we do also provide a handy baby sitting service. If you cared about your kids education you would be more than willing to pay teachers what they are worth and what they are worth is priceless. Your kids and the people that teach and mold them are the future of the world. You think the getting rid of collective bargaining is a good thing? How about your boss says to you, "hey pal, I'm only going to pay you 3/4's what you made last year and if you don't like it, take a hike" Last year they finally gave us a step raise after we the UNION members agreed to hold salaries for the past 4 years. That step was nice but not nice enough to cover the increased cost of our new health insurance policy.

                                So I'll put it to you. What is a qualified, dedicated and skillful teacher worth to you and your children?
                                NHMaster, a great thing about this Forum is that it gives us the opportunity to exchange opinions with folks who have different experiences and points of view. I'm open to learning what the other person has to deal with, and how he sees things. I hope the people who have been disrespectful of your profession will trust your words ,be more considerate of all your hard work. I'll say it again, teachers are not in it for the money, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve, or need it! My greatest hope as a parent is that my daughters have good lives, and that I have put forth decent, people who can function well in our society. A big part of that successful equation are all the teachers who have enriched their minds, and inspired their desire to learn. You have my utmost thanks. Frank

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X