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Marketing Frenzy

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  • #16
    Re: Marketing Frenzy


    All you have to do is track back to "trickle-down" Reaganomics and you will see that is where it started to happen. If you look at the per capita debt curve, from 1946 to 1982, the curve was significally falling... graphically, at almost a 40-degree angle. Then in 1982 or so, Reagan pushed his "lower the taxes" agenda for the top earners in the country.

    The idea being that if we free up the money for the rich (significantly reduce their tax liability), then their new wealth will allow them to buy more and invest more and the American economy should soar even higher and all of the middle class should gain from it. (Sound familiar?... that's what Romney is proposing today!)

    Well, what happened almost immediately is that "per-capita debt curve" suddenly swung upward. The United States almost immediately fell into "debtor" status. Since then that curve has continued to climb and it graphically is at about a similar gradient... only upwards.

    The really sad part about this "trickle-down" idea is that it totally neglected the human nature of "greed". It was like handing the "candy dish" to a kid.... bet you can't take just one? And they didn't, instead they raked the whole bowl into their greedy little hands. The government showed them the way and instead of these new-found riches being invested back into this country, it went overseas, where the $$ could buy more. The rich found that with just a little bit more squeeze, they could buy a BMW, instead of a Cadillac. With just a little more squeeze from the employee's they could easily double their own worth. And everything since then has been about squeezing "just a little more" profit out of everything; and we the middle-class have been sqeezed almost to extinction.

    And so the trend continues.... only now they have so much money that they can feed it to their favorite Congressman or political party. And when the government wanted to limit that, they simply found it easy to form super PACs and use that to change the government.... hence "Citizens United" which provides them covert operation, and it provides them control. Do any of you really think that the Koch brothers and others are throwing money at the Republicans because they are just "civic" minded. No, for them it is an investment in the security of thier future profitability growth.

    Meanwhile, we don't get wage increases to keep pace with the economy. We loose our houses, we cannot afford health care, and we risk loosing our very rights to a safe place to live and work and any possibility that we can afford to send our children to college for the betterment of their generatons. It becomes very much like 18 and 19th Century England in which the Aristocratic land-owners have everything and you and I serve only at their pleasure.



    • #17
      Re: Marketing Frenzy

      CWS, I thanked you for your post because you are partly right. I see our economic situation as a perfect storm bad ideas and behavior coming together to destroy our great nation. We have legislators pandering to the wealthy, minorities( who are no longer a minority), pandering to the illegals( I know they can't vote) and powerful factions furthering their agendas which is not in the best interest of our survival. The business owners who shipped off jobs caused a lot of damage, so did the unfunded wars, the wallstreet crooks, medicare cheats, illegals and many, many more guilty parties. I think all these things would have to be addressed to get America healthy, just talking about them will result in more of the same. Do you really think all these things will change for the better? I don't.


      • #18
        Re: Marketing Frenzy

        Yes, I do... because it has happened before and the "ship was righted". (I believe I've pointed that out to you several times.... so let me quote the guy who did it: "We have nothing to fear, except fear itself."

        While I agree with your accessment of the problem (pretty much anyway), I do not agree with your "the sky is falling" exclamations though. In spite of the Republican effort to destroy the country for the sake of getting Obama out of the White House, the current administration has shown to be effecting improvement on most fronts. You just have to stop listening to the right-wing rhetoric and look around.

        It would be damned awlful nice though if the Republicans would join in though, instead of just obstructing everything. As long as that obstructionism continues, any road back from the edge of calamity will be a very long and worrisome task. It is a real shame that people don't see that.

        Even if one-half of our political system doesn't approve, there should be some offering for some better game plan. As it stands now, half the team is out on the floor constantly knocking the ball out of the hands of the guys who are trying to win the game. The latters "moves" may not be the best, but at least they are playing and not obstructing, nor are they calling for the plays we used in the last game we so heavily lost.



        • #19
          Re: Marketing Frenzy

          CWS, this ship will not be righted. FDR had a strong manufacturing base that grew stronger through war, we have nothing! Unlike most folks who follow party lines, I think for myself. My assessment of the economy is that we cannot survive as a service based economy, providing government benefits to all including illegals while dealing with a sixteen trillion dollar deficit (and growing). When people tell me all of this is cyclical and will get better, I ask how? Explain the mechanism by which we employ tens of millions of American, pay down the debt, balance the budget, roll back fuel costs, make what we consume, reduce entitlements, cut fraud, secure our borders, and all the other necessary things not being done now?

          Now, if you are not blinded by party rhetoric, and can think for yourself, tell me exactly how things will improve? The sky is not falling, our economy and way of life are falling, and there is NO plan to catch us. Higher education, green jobs, clean burning coal and natural gas are nothing but words without action. Go right ahead and feel good after President Obama speaks, I will feel good when he does something to change the things I mentioned. Frank


          • #20
            Re: Marketing Frenzy

            Originally posted by CWSmith
            First off old friend, let us get something straight.... I am NOT following anybody's political rhetoric! You say you aren't either, but yet I see no logic, no historic background, and frankly nothing that you are voting "FOR".... you are voting "Against". "Against" because you see no improvement. While that might be understandable, you fail to see what got us to this point in 2008. You weren't at all happy with the legislation of some very major efforts that occurred in the first two years in office and that is perhaps in part because you didn't grasp the totallity of the trouble we were in. So you then voted in a Congress that right out of the gate, not only threatened, but delivered on thier promise to "fail" everything in order to unseat the elected President. To a lot of us, that political obstructionism is about as close as you can get to traitorism, without collaborating with another country. You apparently fail to see the blatent obstuctionism that is blocking "improvement" at a higher level. You fail to see the frustration that is causing hesitation in the market, because the largest branch of government, Congress, done little to NOTHING to improve the situation. They see any "improvement" legislation as supportive and therefore counter to their stated objectives of removing the elected President.

            But even if you wish to disregard all of that... consider please what you are voting "for"... or perhaps I should say, "What you think your are going to get in return for your vote?"

            Dismemberment of Education, OSHA, EPA... and others. Do you really want to return to America of the 30's?

            Return to Reaganomics. Oh yeah, let's lower the taxes even more on the rich... that is what took us into this mess and has kept us there.

            Return to the cold war. Yep, we could sure use that... let's rearm our enemy's arsenals with Nuclear weapons and lets marginalize our Allies and go off to the insanity (an illegality) of the Bushites.

            Let's also return to the open borders of the Bush years. You appear to not know that we have less illegal immigration and significantly more deportation in the last four years.

            I could go on, but I'm not sure if you care.

            I also could try to state to you "improvements" but I'm not sure you would want to read that. It doesn't make a lot of sense to argue a point with people who have already made up their minds. I am however attempting to put together another thread... just to show what the world was like in my short lifetime and what has occurred since "Reaganomics". That of course is taking time.

            We are both concerned for "solution" and I can certainl suggest some. But's that no more than "pssing in the wind". Congress isn't going to move on anything that either you or I or even all of this forum might agree... but that is pretty much impossible as we are never going to agree. And there in is the problem: If a small number of us, like exists here cannot reach understanding then how do we expect our Congress to do so. You and I and the other forum members have nothing to gain and nothing to loose in any possible agreement... but the Congress is having so much money shoved at them, it's absolutely decided where they are sided.

            But understand this, I don't give "a rat's a$$" about which political label wins. I do care about the direction of the country, and I have a very good understanding and background of our history and the economic practices that have brought us to where we are. The Republicans have moved so far to the right, they are no longer "Republican"... not even by Reagan standards and certainly not by the standards of Teddy Roosevelt or Dwight Eisenhour. The Dems are still for the most part for the middle-class, but there are too many of them that have moved to the far left and those that are more interested in personal prestige and enrichment. I do NOT consider Obama to be part of that.

            Romney seems to be a good guy, but there is too much "plastic" there to really visualize that. He says he knows who to build employment... but show me his history? It simply is NOT there. I don't vote on propaganda, I look at historical facts. If he was what he says he is, then he sure as he!! wouldn't be pushing for lower taxes on the upper class. And he sure wouldn't be telling us he'd scrap all the government agencies he is promising. What he is, is a guy who was born into a financial aristocracy and he has obviously been sheltered from even a clue as to what it is like to really work for a living, or for that matter really struggle against what his financial class has harnessed on us.

            Oh, and before I forget: "FDR had a strong manufacturing base that grew stronger through war, we have nothing!" NO, he did NOT. You forget that our economy was in collapse.. unemployment was everywhere and people were standing in soap lines. The mid-west was in the midst of the "dust-bowl" and manufacturing was almost shut down.... nobody could afford to buy anything. Except for the very rich of course, who were investing heavily in Germany and making a fortune frow selling iron and other materials to Japan. And yeah, the GOP had taken into that mess then too... and like now, they were doing nothing to improve the situation of the working class and the poor.

            More to come,

            You may have more to come but I doubt it will answer any of my questions. You need to think beyond the talking points to realize how bad things are and how nothing will change under either party. Yes, FDR had a strong manufacturing base which switched gears to feed the war machine with planes, ships, tanks, parachutes, uniforms and everything else needed. Look at the labels on your clothing and read made in Vietnam, Sri Lanka, Mexico and China, even Carhartts are not made here! Our American autos are "assembled" here using many foreign parts. I think you fail to see what got us here and refuse to believe we are doomed. Yes, I am voting against the past three plus years of inflation, debt increase, and the rest, I am not voting for anything.
            We cannot afford education and healthcare for everyone, we can't afford food stamps for 50 million either. We are beyond broke at sixteen trillion dollars of debt and rising!
            "You fail to see the frustration that is causing hesitation in the market," Really CWS? You really think the market has a bearing on employing the tens of millions out of work, or paying down the dbt, or balancing the budget? You look to blame one party for where we are and I blame both. The fact that I am voting against the party in power is beyond your comprehension because you are sure they will do something going forward that they have not accomplished thus far. I read and respond to what you post which is more than I can say for you.
            Explain how the debt gets paid, the budget balanced, the tens of millions employed, entitlements funded, borders secured, fraud eliminated,
            cost of fuel made affordable, dependency on imports reduced and manufacturing returned to America?
            My understanding of where we are right now tells me we cannot stay the course. My understanding of republican politics tells me they are simply the lesser of the two evils simply because they will cut spending. I am not for the republican agenda but we cannot pay for what the democrats want. People must pay for their own educations, Americans must go without healthcare they cannot afford, and some will die sooner as a result. Figure out how to make America profitable and you can provide for the masses. Refuse to answer my questions and you accomplish nothing of substance.


            • #21
              Re: Marketing Frenzy

              Oops, Franki, I pulled the above "quote" that you took, because I was trying to edit it and I ran out of time.... you must have copied and posted shortly after I signed off. Mostly, I wanted to edit out any harshness that you might interpret as being directed particularly at you. In any case, sorry about that.

              I've answered many of your questions before... you just don't like the answers. We are not nearly as bad off today, as we have been in the past. Yes, we are at our highest ever level of debt in regards to dollars... but I don't believe we are at the highest level of debt per capita. The population has increased dramatically... but as I have pointed out to your so many times, the debt level in 1945 was significantly high, because of the Great Depression and the aftermath of economic calamities. The war erased the collapse of our production, it's workforce, etc., but the Government increased it's expenditures to a monstrous proportion... it literally hired every available man under the age of 40, and then it subsidized business to build thousands of new plants, hire workers, and output product of every description that the goverment itself bought!!! Talk a "stimulous"... what we've seen in the last four years is nothing compared to that.

              Regarding that massive industrial base you refer too... it had pretty much collapsed in the early 1930's. FDR's "stimulous" not only rebuilt it, it multiplied it beyond anything imaginable, even when compared to our present time.

              The manufacturing base in the present United States has surely shrunk, but it is still huge and we are still the most productive and the most innovative nation on the planet. Problem is the conservatives have set all the rules in favor of "profit" for the corporations... and that means that the American worker gets the shaft. It is definitely more "profitable" to higher workers in China, at least on the short term.

              It is also more profitable to move manufacturing "off-shore"... because our past governments have removed the taxs on profits made "off-shore". There is also no American penalty for "off shore" corruption, pollution, or harmful and dangerous working conditions... and it is rather easy to bribe officials to "look the other way" in all too many foreign locations of U.S. -owned manufacturing.

              What we need to do is stop giving tax breaks to companies that off-shore our jobs. In fact, we probably ought to be coming up with a tax, the penalizes any U.S. company that has shut down a plant or reduced it's U.S. employment in favor of off-shoring. But I'm sure that would be blocked.

              If you don't believe the "hesitation" comment that I made... then you apparently have not been listening to the financial news. Sorry!

              Immigration reform is needed, but you again fail to recognize the fact that in the last four years illegal immigration is down and deportations are way up... gee, didn't I already tell you that? Illegal immigration was rampant under the previous Republican adminstration, was it not?

              It's late, we'll have to continue this another day,




              • #22
                Re: Marketing Frenzy

                Explain how the debt gets paid, the budget balanced, the tens of millions employed, entitlements funded, borders secured, fraud eliminated,
                Deportation is down because like republican administrations the fed refuses to enforce our immigration laws!
                How does the sixteen trillion dollar (and growing) debt get paid?
                Exactly how do the tens of millions out of work find jobs?
                How does manufacturing return, not why is won't , but how it does?
                How do the borders get secured, not illegal immigration slow down because our economy is so bad they must return to mexico?
                How do we reduce entitlements and stop paying for healthcare and education we cannot afford. We being taxpayers and our broke government? I say people must go without, the money is just not there!
                How does the rampant fraud get stopped?

                I understand why these things will not change, I'm curious how you think they will change under the current administration which has done nothing or a republican administration which has done nothing in the past? CWS, we are broke, we are a dead nation which is overspending on things that we can't pay for.
                Since you think things will change for the better, tell me how? I know what would need to happen, but won't, what has not been done to this point.
                Don't worry about being harsh, I don't mind being called an idiot or traitor. I do mind legislators who refuse to do what is necessary to fix the things I mentioned, and I do mind folks who say it will get better but can't explain how? What is your vision for the bright future regarding my questions. Frank


                • #23
                  Re: Marketing Frenzy


                  If I had all the answers, I'd hopefully be living a lot higher than I am. For a no-college guy, I think I do fairly well though. The problem of couse is that, as you know from your own experiece, people don't agree with your answers. And worse, if I had the power to actually execute MY answers, someone would probably to assasinate me. But here's just a quicky:

                  Explain how the debt gets paid, the budget balanced, the tens of millions employed,: There was sort of one of those funny stories going around a year or too ago, something like this little town where everybody owed somebody. The a salesman stopped in a the local hotel, gave the owner $100 for a room and went up stairs to check it out. The hotel owner, ran across the steet to the laundry (I don't remember the exact story, so I'm making my own) and paid the bill for he owed. The laundress, then ran down the street and paid the seamstress for the repairs she had made; who in turn ran up to department store and paid for the materials she had purchased; then that propretor paid his tab at the hotel restaurant he had run up.

                  About that time the salesman came back to the hotel desk and explained he didn't like the room and wanted his $100 back, which he got. BUT, in that short little "visit" all the bills in town had been paid in full!

                  That's how the economy works... it is really very much almost a "perceptional thing". Like I've said before... look at 1937, a total and almost complete disaster. WAR! The government prints money, gives orders, calls together business and polical leaders and appoints so-called Czars to push agenda and war production. It tells business not only what it needs, but that it will pay for both expansion and training... on a "cost-plus" basis. Financial "notes" get passed from government to industry to supplier to employee. Employee takes "note" to bank to get cash, newly printed from mint. Business makes a profit, money given or paid by government, is now money-plus and the "plus" gets used to buy and invest in more than the government purchase. The employee, takes his "note" turns it into "cash" (newly created as it might have been), and pays his bills, buys clothes for his kids and a new outfit for his wife.... those businesses now have "money" and they in turn do their thing.

                  The whole thing is "perception"... we all know we have something we didnt' have and we spend it and that creates wealth, wealth where there wasn't. You cannot do that on the "so-called" Gold Standard... but you can do that when cash is regulated by the Fed and spent in a free market. And, the beauty of it all is that the more people that are employed, the more money is in circulation and being spent to generate more profit... and the more profit, the more taxes are driven back to the Fed. It's one giant game of "capitalism" in which people pay, build, and buy; and it works! There simply is no explanation that explains the phenomenon of financial growth that exploded out of a country and a world that was on it's very knees prior to WWII. Damn man, you can't go to war unless you have the money to build the war machine... and in the late thirties, this nation, like it's people was broke!

                  Here's some facts about the "Great Depression" from Wikipedia... Bear in mind the population differences, but how do you think that compares to now:

                  - 13 million people became unemployed.
                  - In 1932, 34 million people belonged to families with no regular full-time wage earner
                  - Industrial production fell by nearly 45% between 1929 and 1932.
                  - Homebuilding dropped by 80% between the years 1929 and 1932
                  - In the 1920s, the banking system in the U.S. was about $50 billion, which was about 50% of GDP
                  - From 1929 to 1932, about 5,000 banks went out of business.
                  - By 1933, 11,000 of the US' 25,000 banks had failed
                  - Between 1929 and 1933, U.S. GDP fell around 30%, the stock market lost almost 90% of its value.
                  - In 1929, the unemployment rate averaged 3%
                  - In 1933, 25% of all workers and 37% of all nonfarm workers were unemployed.
                  - In Cleveland, the unemployment rate was 50%; in Toledo, Ohio: 80%.
                  - One Soviet trading corporation in New York averaged 350 applications a day from Americans seeking jobs in the Soviet Union
                  - Over one million families lost their farms between 1930 and 1934
                  - Corporate profits had dropped from $10 billion in 1929 to $1 billion in 1932.
                  - Between 1929 and 1932, the income of the average American family was reduced by 40%.
                  - Nine million savings accounts had been wiped out between 1930 and 1933.
                  - 273,000 families had been evicted from their homes in 1932.
                  - There were two million homeless people migrating around the country.
                  - Over 60% of Americans were categorized as poor by the federal government in 1933.
                  - In the last prosperous year (1929), there were 279,678 legal immigrants recorded, but in 1933 only 23,068 came to the U.S.
                  - In the early 1930s, more people emigrated from the United States than immigrated to it.
                  - With little economic activity there was scant demand for new coinage. No nickels or dimes were minted in 1932–33,
                  no quarter dollars in 1931 or 1933, no half dollars from 1930–32, and no silver dollars in the years 1929–33.
                  - The U.S. government sponsored a Mexican Repatriation program which was intended to encourage people
                  to voluntarily move to Mexico, but thousands, including some U.S. citizens, were deported against their will.
                  Altogether about 400,000 Mexicans were repatriated.
                  - New York social workers reported that 25% of all schoolchildren were malnourished.
                  In the mining counties of West Virginia, Illinois, Kentucky, and Pennsylvania, the proportion of
                  malnourished children was perhaps as high as 90%.
                  - Many people became ill with diseases such as tuberculosis.
                  - The 1930 U.S. Census determined the U.S. population to be 122,775,046.
                  About 40% of the population was under 20 years

                  So after all of that, the question was: " How does the debt get paid, the budget balanced, the tens of millions employed,: The answer is: Exactly what we did in the late 1930's... the government steps up and steps in.

                  You also asked, How do entitlements funded? Well Frank you and I are alot closer in agreement on that supject. I'm not for a lot of entitlements, or at least not how they are now. I think I'd start at the top... I'd remove entitlements from industries that are showing profitability. We don't need to be subsidizing and giving any encentives to the oil industry. We don't need to be giving entitlements to industry at all, if they are showing profit. We certainly don't need to be paying anything to anybody who doesn't need it.

                  And that includes Social Security to people who are living very, very well. Yes I know... they put into it, but why should the government pay anybody who is already earning a $1,000 a week or more. It's not my problem or the governments responsibility to fund thier golf game or membership to the country club, that nicer vacation, or that sailing event. Social Security is for the "security" of those who, inspite of years of hard work, have not been able to achieve a living retirement because thier company management has stolen thier jobs from them; nor is it fair to a worker and his family who has lost their accumulated savings because someone has gotten sick.

                  On the other hand, I wouldn't give a dime to someone who doesn't work and hasn't worked. It's not my problem if they have a lousey personality, dropped out of school, likes to get high or drunk or be belligerant, or has done a crime. Nor is it my fault that they've covered their body with tatoo's, pierced their face, and/or made themselves unpresentable to anyone who might otherwise have hired them. Sorry, you render yourselve unemployable... you starve!

                  I also wouldn't provide welfare to these people and I sure as hell wouldn't provide welfare for anyone who gets knocked-up just so they can get out of the house. Hey, we all make mistakes. Maybe we father a kid or we get pregnant. Youth is stupid, and I don't believe a life should be ruined because you made a bad decision in the heat of passion. So, maybe you need a break... I'd vote for assistance, "welfare" if you will. But it will come only with parameters being met. 1. You tell me who the father is, and he joins in. 2. You need to be responsible, get help, get an education and training so you can get a job. If you can't find a job, then you work at whatever the local government needs you for, even if it's picking up trash and cleaning toilets for a few hours a week. BUT, you have another kid, you're subsidy/welfare drops and that kid and maybe even your first kid gets put up for adoption and you undergo surgery or else drop out of the financial program. You do NOT want to comply with that, well I guess you just starve.

                  I'm totally against people having more babies, as a means to upgrade your monthly welfare check.

                  Illegal immigration: You and I are on the same page, I think. But let me give my opinion about the difference (in my head) between "illegal" and "undocumented". Illegal is when you come here through any channel outside the immigration dept's quota system and rules. Undocumented is when your parents bring you here and you don't have a choice and didn't know it until after your were here and starting to interface with society. One in unlawful, the other is a victim. I'm for helping the victim and providing a path to citizenship, I'm all for sending the "illegal" back to wherever they came from.

                  You mentioned, "Deportation is down"... you didn't read what I said. Deportation under Obama is significantly up.

                  More to follow,


                  ps, you also asked the following:

                  How does the sixteen trillion dollar (and growing) debt get paid?
                  Exactly how do the tens of millions out of work find jobs?

                  Pretty much covered that in the beginning, but I'll offer my opinion on employment and manufacturing next.
                  Last edited by CWSmith; 09-11-2012, 09:50 AM.


                  • #24
                    Re: Marketing Frenzy

                    How can you say deportation is up, if the President is giving illegals a pass to stay here? He is refusing to enforce our immigration laws.
                    I wonder what gov. jan bruer would say ?
                    CWS, you have some ideas of what might help if implimented, but not what has ,or will actually be done. I look at the problems and the refusal by either party to change them. I ask "how do you employ tens of millions" out of curiosity, when in fact I am positive it will not happen with either party in charge. I think it would take legislation, cooperation, and a mobilization beyond anything leaders in business and politics are willing to do. I say we are doomed because several things such as the debt, unemployment, entitlements and lack of manufacturing are so irreparable, that there is no point in projecting beyond them. These things are not a matter of perception, they are irrefutable. I remember the joke you referenced, and while it was funny, our economy and situation are not.

                    CWS, you seem to be at peace with how things are, and what President Obama will do if reelected. I am not, and I will not bother you with my negative thoughts any further. I truly hope your perceptions hold strong. Frank
                    Last edited by Frankiarmz; 09-10-2012, 07:30 PM.


                    • #25
                      Re: Marketing Frenzy

                      Well Frank,

                      I say "deportation is up"... because that is what it is. That "deportation" has made the news multiple times and is a critical fault being directed at Obama by liberals and the Hispanics.

                      The dealing with "illegals" is certainly not successful or do I think there is any effort to "complete" the task. But, look at the definitions of "illegal" and "undocumented" that I opinioned. Then for a second put yourself into the shoes of an "illegal" who brought your two girls here when they were just very young children. Maybe you did that because you had no job, maybe you were afraid of the politics, or the drug gangs... whatever your reason, you felt as a father that you had a responsibility to your family.

                      "Legal" immigration is long and hard, but certainly worth it. But the process is long, subject to quotas, etc. However, given a threatening situation where your family's survival may be at stake... Please tell me Frank, would YOU not do anything necessary to ensure your family's survival? I know you would! But seriously think about that. For us, that act might be just to cross the very wide, and largely unprotected border into Canada. It would be difficult, it would be hard, and it would be frought with risk.... but YOU would do it, and I'm sure there's quite a large number of guys on this forum that would do it too.

                      Now, look at it years or maybe decades later. If finally discovered to be "illegal", I'm sure would dread, and hate, but I also think you'd "brave" deportation back to the U.S. and even take whatever penalties that would be waiting for you. BUT, what about your girls? It wasn't their fault. The only country they know is the country they grew up in. Should they too be jailed and "repatriated" back to a country that they never knew, perhaps don't even know the language, and God only knows what may happen to them... especially if their parents are in jail or even executed. Picture that possibility for YOUR children and then tell me Obama's move wasn't a morally correct one?

                      So while "illegal" hasn't stopped or even dwindled, it is a move in the right direction; AND THAT, is a reversal of previous administrations. It certainly isn't complete, but then again, we are NOT Nazi Germany of the 30's. I'm afraid that is what the Republican Right-Wing and the Tea Party would like us to be. Like the Nazi's, they are already targeting minority's, unions, and certain religious groups. Like the 1930's there are very few of the mainstream population that will "speak out".

                      The question then begs to be asked, "If given the power, who else will they go after... and when it gets to you and me... will their be anyone left to speak out?" (My apologies to the famous poem of by Martin Niemoller

                      Jan Brewer? I won't waste my time going there.

                      Don't back out Frank. You asked for answers. I know you are frustrated and please don't think for a second that I am happy with Obama or in any way "complacent" with his progress. Both sides of the political issue are "spinning" things. You need to hear, but also "listen".... I caught one of those spins last night, when one of the pundits was "spinning" for Obama (You'll enjoy this):

                      Rand Paul said that Obama has added more workers to the Federal Government... something like 112,000.

                      Pundit says that's not true and in fact goverment employment has dropped by over 600,000 and he shows a graph.

                      Ron Paul said that was "disingenuous" and not true, as much of that was by state governments, which are not under Obama's control.

                      Pundit then says, "Yes, but if you include Postal workers then the Federal add-on amounts to only 1%.

                      About this time I go "WHAT THE HELL"... listen, you either have dimished the government employment or you haven't... what is it... dropping 600,000, but "including Postal workers" shows "only a 1% increase" ?????

                      See what I mean... you can't just hear it, you've got to really listen to what in hell these guys are saying.

                      Closer to the facts (and I didn't check the numbers, so don't beat me up on those) is this:

                      State governments have been shedding jobs... maybe the number really is 600,000 overall.

                      The Postal service, as we all know, has been closing offices and shedding jobs.. that is on the Federal level. Maybe those numbers are included in the quoted "600,000", I don't know.

                      But, the Federal government has added employees... and that addition, what ever it is, is in fact countered by the negative numbers of the Postal Service.

                      The results of the negative "Postal" and the Positive "Federal" amount to a 1% increase in Federal employment... See, just simple math. The pro-Dem Pundit made me laugh... it was stupid.

                      The question of course in my head was where were those additions in Federal employment. I'm sure they are NOT all in the Executive branch.

                      Oh, I fixed the list regarding "the Depression". Hopefully you will look at it and realize things were much worse and from that we recovered, but it took spending and NOT cutting back and certainly NOT lowering taxes.

                      One of the economic guru's recently analyzed and stated that if we let the Bush tax cuts simply go away... the infusion of revenues from all levels would amount to approximately an additional 2.5 Trillion dollars in revenues to the Federal government over the next few years. If other proposed Democrat policies were realized and IF taxes were raised on those making over $250,000 in personal income, that would represent better than a 25% drop in our debt over the next ten years. And that doesn't include the increase in tax revenues that "more Jobs" would bring.

                      Therefore the focus should be on jobs, jobs, jobs and to that end, we need to increase taxes on any American company that off-shores or hire's foriegn workers. We need to invest in training and we need to ensure that "Made in America" (with quality), is essential to being an American business. And to that end, NO American company or citizen should be simply allowed to "off-shore" their address as a way to cheat paying taxes.

                      I also thing certain deductions, like mortgate interest, should be set up on a graduated scale. Low income homes perhaps getting a full deduction and the higher you go, the less deduction.

                      Have a good week Frank,


                      Last edited by CWSmith; 09-11-2012, 10:51 AM.


                      • #26
                        Re: Marketing Frenzy


                        I just saw this story: Wealthiest Americans have 288 times net worth of typical family - Sep. 11, 2012

                        You want to guess which of these two groups made the decision to move jobs to China; and who profitted from that decision?

                        You want to guess which party sides with who and who is saying they are going to ensure more of the same?

                        Yep, lowering taxes on the rich sure worked... but NOT for us!!!!!

                        Can you see WHY the people in this class and their representatives are trying so hard to get everyone to vote Obama out of office?

                        IF you really think voting for these guys is going to turn things around, what else can be said?



                        • #27
                          Re: Marketing Frenzy

                          ... debt, unemployment, entitlements and lack of manufacturing are so
                          I don't believe they are Frank, I think they can be fixed. I just think we have not reached the point where those holding out for all the freebies and entitlements are willing to give up and go get a job. As long as we keep handing those who don't deserve help an excuse not to work they will do just that...sit on their a$$ and live on the public dole. We need to take a serious look at who we are paying for and trim it back as CWS said to those who truly need help, and deserve it.

                          How does the rampant fraud get stopped?
                          That's a good question. I can tell you that I hear many things about what goes on in local (county and municipal) government as far as abuse of power; fraud; bribes; and what I call 'stealing' public money (tax dollars) by making use of government facilities and property for personal use, and on and on.

                          The perpetrators are both from parties, its pretty equally split what I have heard about or seen with my own eyes. And the biggest problem with it is that when they are discovered, when even caught red handed in the cookie jar, nothing is done. They are allowed to 'leave' to seek another job or otherwise let go in a manner that does not reflect badly on them. So they are free to go elsewhere and continue their plunder of your tax dollars when they should be in jail and all their worldly goods confiscated and sold to repay what they stole.
                          Last edited by Bob D.; 09-11-2012, 07:43 PM.
                          "It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?" Bob D. 2006



                          1/20/2017 - The Beginning of a new Error


                          • #28
                            Re: Marketing Frenzy

                            Bob, you guys are entitled to your opinions as am I, however I don't think it is we who are handing out anything or deciding solutions to the problems I keep repeating. In my opinion I received absolutely no answers to my questions of exactly how or by what mechanism those things "will" be changed for the better. I am totally convinced neither political party will do anything to fix where we are going forward and that seals our fate. I would agree that all these things could be addressed and fixed theoretically, but in reality they will not. We all have common sense and some radical ideas of what needs to be done at this late date, but the legislators would rather see our nation collapse than do what is necessary.

                            The economy and nation is huge, so I don't know how much longer it will take to fall apart. How many more years of communist china supplying most of our consumer goods along with mexico, europe, sri lanka, vietnam and the rest, before we go broke. How many more downgrades before we can't borrow. I know as a family man, and member of the community in which I live, I do my best to act responsibly. That cannot be said of both political parties that got us here along with the regular folks who took advantage of the system.
                            We here are full of ideas, but all we really have is a vote and unfortunately that is just not enough. Frank


                            • #29
                              Re: Marketing Frenzy

                              What do you long winded guys think of the latest GM bailout.
                              Pentagon buying hundreds of Chevy Volts. I read they lose $49000. on everyone they sell.
                              Wish I could run a Plumbing business like that.


                              • #30
                                Re: Marketing Frenzy

                                Originally posted by ArizonaPlumber View Post
                                What do you long winded guys think of the latest GM bailout.
                                Pentagon buying hundreds of Chevy Volts. I read they lose $49000. on everyone they sell.
                                Wish I could run a Plumbing business like that.
                                "Long winded", makes me want to write a large post. I think it's a great move and should be expanded to include every American and illegal! Everyone gets a chevy volt! Then President Obama can get communist china to make all the windmills to power the cars. Imagine all those green jobs, they won't be here but still. I can see it now, millions of drivers lined up at windmills, waving their charge cords and cursing the clouds. A beautiful scene right out of Don Quixote. Anyone know how all those batteries woud be disposed and at what cost? Looks like I've been wrong thinking we are doomed, this proves the government is right on track.