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Darn Twinkie Union

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  • #46
    Re: Darn Twinkie Union

    You could have insulated your house with Twinkies. And I think the filling is flammable.

    Cheaper than heating oil.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Darn Twinkie Union

      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
      MR.FUDD & Flux, No, not everyone can afford a 8% pay cut on top of inflation, so we disagree.
      It equaled out to a 4% pay cut over the contract.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Darn Twinkie Union

        Originally posted by Flux View Post
        It equaled out to a 4% pay cut over the contract.
        That's not how it was going to begin, and there is no telling if it would ever reach that 4%, remember this was not the first pay cut they suffered.
        Ask yourself how many reductions of income you could afford before you no longer work for profit, or to even break even? We are focused on the hostess situation, but there are probably millions of Americans who either stopped looking for work, or lost their jobs because they could not afford to pay for gas, food and the rest of the essentials. Now we the remaining taxpayers will help to keep them fed and housed. I would rather our economy get right side up, but the chances of that happening are slim to none. Get ready to support more and more and more, as the economy circles the bowl. We have gone from talking about workers asking for unreasonable raises, to workers being unreasonable for not accepting repeated pay cuts. You have to ask yourself if this is going in the right direction, and more importantly,
        When does it hit home with you? Frank

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Darn Twinkie Union

          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
          That's not how it was going to begin, and there is no telling if it would ever reach that 4%,
          Frank, Fox news did a break down over the life of the contract they turned down, and when you add and subtract the money it equaled - 4%.

          So for example, if someone was making $50,000 as a Union Baker, their loss per month was less than $200.00 when it averages out.

          It hits home with me when I see 18,500 knuckleheads not using common sense.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Darn Twinkie Union

            Flux, I watch Fox news and I understood the breakdown, that is why I wrote " that's not how it was going to begin". The 4% is after years of higher pay cuts on top of previous pay cuts, and on top of previous bankruptsys. You have the nerve to call folks who refused pay cut after pay cut knuckleheads when you work for a profit like most sane people! Flux, add up all their pay cuts, and apply them to your budget, then rethink who is a knucklehead. We the taxpayers who stand by helplessly but to pick up the pieces of failed economics much higher up the food chain are also losers. You can keep blaming the workers and Unions all you want but that does not change the economy that leads to all these failures. Refuse to blame mismanagement, inflation, and all the other things I repeat over and over again, and you really don't grow from the conversation. I'm open to the idea of unreasonable worker demands, but I'm also open to the idea of much deeper, widespread problems that affect businesses and cause them to fail without management or labor problems. Now if you want to ignore my comments and post about greedy Unions and knucklehead workers go right ahead, I'll be here. Frank

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Darn Twinkie Union

              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
              Flux, I watch Fox news and I understood the breakdown, that is why I wrote " that's not how it was going to begin". The 4% is after years of higher pay cuts on top of previous pay cuts, and on top of previous bankruptsys. You have the nerve to call folks who refused pay cut after pay cut knuckleheads when you work for a profit like most sane people! Flux, add up all their pay cuts, and apply them to your budget, then rethink who is a knucklehead. We the taxpayers who stand by helplessly but to pick up the pieces of failed economics much higher up the food chain are also losers. You can keep blaming the workers and Unions all you want but that does not change the economy that leads to all these failures. Refuse to blame mismanagement, inflation, and all the other things I repeat over and over again, and you really don't grow from the conversation. I'm open to the idea of unreasonable worker demands, but I'm also open to the idea of much deeper, widespread problems that affect businesses and cause them to fail without management or labor problems. Now if you want to ignore my comments and post about greedy Unions and knucklehead workers go right ahead, I'll be here. Frank
              Frank, your math is wrong regarding the contract...plain and simple. If you watched the actual report Eric Bolling did on this specific issue, he broke it down year by year what the workers would receive. If you watched it like you said you did, you wouldn't be saying what you're saying. The guy has a strong background in finance and I take him at his word until proven otherwise.

              Half of me wants to say this one was fueled by greed, but then the Teamsters seemed to have some level headed people who put aside differences and accepted a deal. Sorry I can't say the same about the Bakers Union, as they chose no job over having a job, and closing down an iconic company.

              See Frank...my wife's Union voted unanimously to accept their next 5 year contract, even though they were losing their killer raises. Somewhere a long the line common sense played a "key" part in that vote to get all 200 people to say yes. That Union will live to fight another day, and when the next contrct comes around, maybe things will be different. However, my wife wants out of the Union and looking to get into a salary position instead because she simply doesn't like what the Union stands for.

              So yes, anyone who chooses to lose their job for whatever reason is a knucklehead in my opinion cause this could of easily been handled. You can't give someone money that simply isn't there regardless of who is at fault. The Teamsters looking over the books at Hostess confirms my beliefs...and the bakers Union has only themselves to blame. While you want to blame corporations for mismanaging...I also blame Union bosses for promising un-realistic promises to the Union workers, and the sheep eating it up.

              Hopefully you went out and got another box of twinkies.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Darn Twinkie Union

                Originally posted by Flux View Post
                Frank, your math is wrong regarding the contract...plain and simple. If you watched the actual report Eric Bolling did on this specific issue, he broke it down year by year what the workers would receive. If you watched it like you said you did, you wouldn't be saying what you're saying. The guy has a strong background in finance and I take him at his word until proven otherwise.

                Half of me wants to say this one was fueled by greed, but then the Teamsters seemed to have some level headed people who put aside differences and accepted a deal. Sorry I can't say the same about the Bakers Union, as they chose no job over having a job, and closing down an iconic company.

                See Frank...my wife's Union voted unanimously to accept their next 5 year contract, even though they were losing their killer raises. Somewhere a long the line common sense played a "key" part in that vote to get all 200 people to say yes. That Union will live to fight another day, and when the next contrct comes around, maybe things will be different. However, my wife wants out of the Union and looking to get into a salary position instead because she simply doesn't like what the Union stands for.

                So yes, anyone who chooses to lose their job for whatever reason is a knucklehead in my opinion cause this could of easily been handled. You can't give someone money that simply isn't there regardless of who is at fault. The Teamsters looking over the books at Hostess confirms my beliefs...and the bakers Union has only themselves to blame. While you want to blame corporations for mismanaging...I also blame Union bosses for promising un-realistic promises to the Union workers, and the sheep eating it up.

                Hopefully you went out and got another box of twinkies.
                No more twinkies for me. Your wife is lucky to have you since you don't have to work at a loss. You are mistaken to say those workers would not have taken more than a 4% pay cut in the beginning, and you totally ignored their previous pay cuts. If my Union leaders "promised" me more and more pay cuts as terms for a new contract I would opt to lose the job and have the government (taxpayers) foot my bills and figure out where to fix the broken economy. I wish your wife good luck as a manager, just remember you don't need chiefs when all the indians are gone. Bad times are here and they will only get worse, it is unfortunate you can't see beyond your Union hatred. You never did respond to my question of how you would deal with such pay cuts? I know if it doesn't directly affect you it's not a real problem. I think it is. Eric Bolling apologized to me on facebook a while back for an antiUnion comment he made on the air, I think he is basically a decent guy.

                8% reduction of wages on top of previous reductions
                17% reduction in health benefits
                complete elimination of pension
                Last edited by Frankiarmz; 11-18-2012, 05:54 PM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Darn Twinkie Union

                  Frank you keep asking how the workers are to survive, how was the company going to survive? If the company does not survive, the worker does not either
                  it is not management VS lLabor, it is survival of a company and it existence.

                  As you stated all ready the Economy is busted, well the economy effects the company as much as the workers, inflation works against the company as much as it does the workers,

                  YOU Seem to focus on only the worker, which is some what like focusing on a cells in a body, if the body dies the cell dies, yes the cells need to be keep healthy to keep the body healthy but it also goes the other way to, the body has to be healthy to keep the cells healthy,

                  and if the company need to cut expenses, and there inputs keep raising and they have raised there prices to the point where they do not think they will be putting product out of reach of people, (remember a lot of there product was not a NEED but a choice or even a luxury), and in a down economy my guess is from the reports there product has dropped in sales, (regardless of the reason), they were not making the moneys they once did.
                  also business changes, and one needs to keep changing with it, there product line with the health pushes may not have been as popular as it was a number of years ago, and there is also new competition that comes. (how many buggy whip makers do you know?)

                  What are they to do as a COMPANY? where are they going to cut?
                  That is what your asking? but on the worker level? HOW WILL THEY GET BUY ON LESS. HOW IS THE COMPANY TO GET BY ON LESS, as you know "money does not grow on trees", as the saying goes.

                  I do think there is a IRONERY in the fact that the Union decision was most likely much worst for the workers and many workers that were not on strike will suffer along with the unions decision,

                  my son works as a welder and has worked for a number of small companies, he has also ran for a number of years with his own Scrap Iron business, all most ever company he has worked in, the worker CUSS the management or Owner of the company for being greedy and uncaring of the employees,
                  yes when things are good the owners make money, but when things are poor they many times have gone broke, many times the owner has gone and put his own personal home up for collateral to make the payroll, when he was not payed on time by a customer, but the employs still cuss the guy for not paying more and how hard it is to make ends meet, it is the same thing on the managements or owner end, since my son has ran a business him self and chose to step back in to a labor realm he does see the challenges of both but many times the labor never sees only there side or even care about the other side and build up this "there out to get me mentality" and like Eeyore , from Winnie-the-Pooh, ‘woe is me’ attitude about life.
                  Last edited by BHD; 11-18-2012, 08:54 PM.
                  Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                  attributed to Samuel Johnson
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Darn Twinkie Union

                    Originally posted by BHD View Post
                    Frank you keep asking how the workers are to survive, how was the company going to survive? If the company does not survive, the worker does not either
                    it is not management VS lLabor, it is survival of a company and it existence.

                    As you stated all ready the Economy is busted, well the economy effects the company as much as the workers, inflation works against the company as much as it does the workers,

                    YOU Seem to focus on only the worker, which is some what like focusing on a cells in a body, if the body dies the cell dies, yes the cells need to be keep healthy to keep the body healthy but it also goes the other way to, the body has to be healthy to keep the cells healthy,

                    and if the company need to cut expenses, and there inputs keep raising and they have raised there prices to the point where they do not think they will be putting product out of reach of people, (remember a lot of there product was not a NEED but a choice or even a luxury), and in a down economy my guess is from the reports there product has dropped in sales, (regardless of the reason), they were not making the moneys they once did.
                    also business changes, and one needs to keep changing with it, there product line with the health pushes may not have been as popular as it was a number of years ago, and there is also new competition that comes. (how many buggy whip makers do you know?)

                    What are they to do as a COMPANY? where are they going to cut?
                    That is what your asking? but on the worker level? HOW WILL THEY GET BUY ON LESS. HOW IS THE COMPANY TO GET BY ON LESS, as you know "money does not grow on trees", as the saying goes.

                    I do think there is a IRONERY in the fact that the Union decision was most likely much worst for the workers and many workers that were not on strike will suffer along with the unions decision,

                    my son works as a welder and has worked for a number of small companies, he has also ran for a number of years with his own Scrap Iron business, all most ever company he has worked in, the worker CUSS the management or Owner of the company for being greedy and uncaring of the employees,
                    yes when things are good the owners make money, but when things are poor they many times have gone broke, many times the owner has gone and put his own personal home up for collateral to make the payroll, when he was not payed on time by a customer, but the employs still cuss the guy for not paying more and how hard it is to make ends meet, it is the same thing on the managements or owner end, since my son has ran a business him self and chose to step back in to a labor realm he does see the challenges of both but many times the labor never sees only there side or even care about the other side and build up this "there out to get me mentality" and like Eeyore , from Winnie-the-Pooh, ‘woe is me’ attitude about life.
                    BHD, you completely misunderstand my thoughts on this specific situation. I wrote in several posts that even though management at hostess was criticized for screwing things up, there was no reason to believe workers accepting this further pay and benefit cut would change the outcome. I believe our economy is so far gone from inflation driven by outsourcing and greed (gasoline prices) among other things that it just doesn't make sense for workers to keep a job if it means they can't make ends meet. Sure as a Union guy I've been on strike for months at a time trying to get higher wages and greater benefits from my employer, but I'm not so stupid that I can't accept smone businesses just can't afford to pay more to workers. Why can't you accept the idea that in this instance those workers already took pay cuts and were faced with an 8% wage cut, 17% reduction in medical expenses and a complete loss of pension benefits? Why can't you imagine having your pay cut so much that you can't purchase gasoline, heat your home and buy food? That is where I think these folks were, and I fear it is where many, many more are headed. Forget demands for greater wages and benefits and think hundreds or thousands of businesses so hurt by the shrinking economy that thousands of workers lose their jobs Regardless of how many pay cuts they agree to. BHD, we are like dominos just ready to fall, as we cut the pay and spending power of more and more workers Union or not, they in turn can't buy things like they used to and that affects other businesses. You are a farmer and I am a consumer, because I am paying double for gasoline and heating fuel while on a fixed income I have cut back on buying meat. I understand there are still plenty of Americans buying meat even as prices at the food store go up because of your expenses and trucking and all those things. Just consider that if enough folks can't afford to buy meat like they used to the price will have to come down which will hurt you possibly to the point that you stop raising livestock for sale or worse. I think our economy is so far gone that to argue over these workers taking more pay cuts is just some folks thinking they are spoiled, greedy ,idiots, and some folks thinking those people should try and imagine being in their position.
                    My bottom line is everyone who is upset with those workers should be more upset with the economy that got them there, not the management that screwed up, or the workers not accpeting more pay cuts. I am no great thinker, no business man, but I have observed over the last few years what is taking place and it is frightening! I'm not saying woe is them twinkie workers, or woe is me, I am saying woe is everyone including the folks who think they are bullet proof while others are losing jobs, homes and families. This economy is about much more than business owners and workers coming together, it is way past that, way, way past that! Frank

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Darn Twinkie Union

                      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                      This economy is about much more than business owners and workers coming together, it is way past that, way, way past that! Frank
                      I agree, that the economy is much more than labor and management,

                      I am not ticked off at the workers, they made a decision, I just think that with the current economy and the past struggles they the company had been, making the choice they did made was the wrong one.
                      and they apparely did not believe the judge in the case that that was the option they were facing,

                      as far as the economy goes I think it is in for a correction, and like most things that have cycles, usually the swings are like a pendulum on a clock, it swings on way and then the other way, and many times the swings are greater than desired, grain have price cycles cattle have price cycles,

                      there is a theory called long waves and one of the theory's is called the Kondratieff Wave.
                      not all economists agree as the start and stop dates are not precise, regardless it chart out the rise and fall of the economy over the years of the US,

                      In fact the economy often has booms and busts. It’s a continual cycle. Nicolai Kondratieff and Ralph Nelson Elliott suggested that an economic cycle of debt build-up and repudiation repeats every 50-60 years. Below is the Kondratieff Wave…
                      http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article35412.html
                      pictures from these sites
                      KondratieffWinter.com: Home
                      PART I: AN INEFFICIENT MARKET HYPOTHESIS

                      one of the charts were drawn up in the 1970's it looks like, ( and predicted the current economic conditions (dates off a few years but was predicted,
                      and the other more recent,

                      personal I think it just some thing one is going to have to ride out or through I do not think there is any getting off this ride whether you like it or not,

                      there are probly things that may be done to lessen the effects of it, but I think it was bound to happen and I think some time, (hope soon) things will get better,
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by BHD; 11-19-2012, 01:08 AM.
                      Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                      attributed to Samuel Johnson
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Darn Twinkie Union

                        BHD, as much as I want to be hopeful for the future, for our kids, I don't believe the whole "cycles" thing as it applies to our economy. We are in new territory with so much of our consumer goods being manufactured outside of our country. We are in new territory with the shift in consumer spending on various electronics which are purchased over and over again, adding to another new thing consumer credit card debt. Not sure if our fuel costs were ever so high in the past either? I know with the great depresion we had high unemployment, but we had several ways out that situation that lead to a rebuilding of a strong economy, an uplifting of the American spirit. I can't imagine a program comparable to the W.P.A. of the depression nowadays? I can't picture a mechanism comparable to the manufacturing and building boom of the 40's and 50's? Like they said in the movie "The Shawshank Redemption", "Hope is a good thing, perhaps the best of things", I sure would feel better relying on more than just hope. Frank

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Darn Twinkie Union

                          Frank I do not know what will pull the country or work out of mess,
                          I do think the other candidate would have been a better choice, but I do not know if the end effect would be much different, I am afraid that it is going to get worst and maybe much worst, long before it get better,
                          the debt, and European countries on the brink of collapse with debt, there are stories of China economy is not the best either, Japan is having problems, the possibly of middle east blow up, our lack of energy independence, the desire of the current administration to raise the price of fuels and energy, and the trade imbalance, with so much of the world.

                          we live in scary times, I wish there was a magic wand to fix things and I hope we make it through it,

                          I was hoping that if the other candidate would have got in that we may have been on the start of an up swing, personally I think were in for many more years of going the wrong way, when you add the cost of O care to the business and the personal costs it will bring to families, and the Greed of the government,

                          the big thing for you and I is the problem of the RULES CHANGING in playing the game, (and many or some of us are nearly to far along in the cycle of life to adjust to the changes),

                          at one time most every one knew the rules:

                          buy a house pay the payments, and sell a number of years down the road, at a good profit, rule changed, now you loose money selling,

                          Unions, at one time basicly could strike and after a given time get all or part of there demands, RULE Changed,

                          not that many years ago, GO to collage and end up with better Than average paying job, Rule Changed,

                          work hard and produce quality work and you had a secure Job, RULE changed,

                          when you come to retirement age, you could depend on SS and Medicare, that you payed in to for many years, (I think this rule will be changing as well, at least some),

                          and I am sure you can add more to the list of things that have changed, from what was considered the normal, just a few years ago,

                          what the new rules that emerge I do not know and I do not think business knows either, as the number of companies that have been house hold names are probably going to go the way of Hostess has gone, the story below says 17 huge companies in danger of failure. some are very surprising at least to me, and it is not just one area, or sector,
                          The Next 17 Big Companies That Are At Risk Of Bankruptcy - Business Insider do not like this kind of rule changes,

                          you think you just about have things figured out and they change the way it is done, it happens to business as well,

                          think of being in High tech, the changes of the Hi tech are changing daily, and yet you have to be planing two and three years ahead, and if you make the wrong choice in the direction things are going, your doomed,
                          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                          attributed to Samuel Johnson
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Darn Twinkie Union

                            Really glad to see we have a lot of optimists here!!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Darn Twinkie Union

                              Well late this afternoon the bankruptcy judge said the two parties had not exhausted
                              all possibilities so he is telling them to go back and get an arbitrator to help settle this.

                              So looks like it not over...yet.
                              ---------------
                              Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                              ---------------
                              “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                              ---------
                              "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                              ---------
                              sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Darn Twinkie Union

                                .....but many times the labor never sees only there side or even care about the
                                other side.....
                                I have seen this too. Many employees can't understand the employers side
                                of the equation as they have had zero exposure to running a business.

                                On the other hand most employers were at one time someone elses employee,
                                they may not remember what it was like, but there were there none the less.
                                ---------------
                                Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                                ---------------
                                “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                                ---------
                                "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                                ---------
                                sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                                Comment

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