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  • #46
    Re: Liar

    CWS, the President having those powers to override the congress and using them to the degree that President Obama (whom I voted for the first time!), are two different things. You mentioned how desperate our situation was coming out of the depression and WWll, and how we pulled out of it with things like the WPA and manufacturing. CWS, please be patient and tell me how our situation is in any way similar given our massive and growing debt, and absense of manufacturing? I keep hearing people say that we could tax the rich at 100% and not fix the debt, true or not? I have never received an answer to my question of "By what mechanism will we employ the tens of millions of unemployed Americans, and how can we rescue our economy when our consumer dollars leave and go to places like communist china , never to return?".

    CWS, I agree that the republicans did not do us any favors by allowing big business to export jobs, but to focus on that and ignore the unfunded entitlement spending of the democrats is equally wrong.

    The way I see our economy right now is that raising taxes on folks making over $250K won't help much with the debt, and not raising their taxes won't create jobs here. We have too much debt, no plan to balance the budget and pay down the debt, or address entitlement spending. Our lack of manufacturing is not only killing jobs, but poking holes in the bucket of our economy. The problem is not made better by republicans or democrats because they each have their own agenda which is not saving our economy, and worse is that they work at a snails pace while inflation and debt do not.
    Last edited by Frankiarmz; 12-09-2012, 03:01 PM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Liar

      Originally posted by Pipestone Kid View Post
      No. I did not miss it--I purposely"skipped" over it like so many people do as they read things. That is how so much of the "stories" that are floating around get started. I have received so many false emails that take a few words and add to them and make it a crisis. An example--some guy read a preliminary report by a commission set up to look into violations of off shore fishing. At the end of his "critique" he said "I suppose the next thing he (Obama) will do is ban all fishing". Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh both picked it up and broadcast "OBAMA BANS ALL FISHING"
      Just like you purposely skip over Obamas words and actions...typical.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Liar

        Originally posted by Pipestone Kid View Post
        Frankie--read my post carefully. He is not going to ban fishing.
        Kid, I was just playing along with your post.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Liar

          CWS said what I thought too after reading that article - the president is supposed to be a dictator for doing something allowed under our laws and constitution

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Liar

            Originally posted by blue_can View Post
            CWS said what I thought too after reading that article - the president is supposed to be a dictator for doing something allowed under our laws and constitution
            You shouldn't be confused because democrats would be saying the same of a republican President abusing a legal process. That's the down side of party affiliation. it doesn't encourage a person to think independently and see the obvious. Read my post above and think for yourself. Where is the money to pay for all these entitlements and debt? The jobs are not here, the debt is growing, we consume more than we produce. The cost of our energy is too high, and our consumer spending continues to enrich a brutal super power that crushes human rights, manipulates it's dollar, pollutes without concern, and supports enemies of democracy. When shaun hannity insulted Americans who objected to things President Bush was doing, I found his behavior despicable. I feel the same way today regarding people such as myself who object to how President Obama is handling serious issues facing our country, and how we are addressed. The Presdient has a lot of powers under the constitution, abusing those powers to further his own agenda does not make for a good leader in my opinion. We desperately need a plan to address the things I mentioned and swift action by both parties to get things done.

            I am amazed at how anyone can defend the President's support of the environmentalist's agenda, when so many Americans are in a survival mode regarding fuel costs? Tell me how tens of millions of Americans get off unemployment, food stamps, and other entitlements, how the sixteen trillion and growing debt gets paid, and what the President has in mind beyond raising taxes on the rich? Look beyond the arguments here and demand answers to the problems. When I voted for President Obama the fist time I had great hope for meaningful change, what I observed was a party driven agenda that did nothing to resolve the aforementioned issues. Healthcare for all, higher education for all, social security, medicare, pollution free environment, great achievements of a thriving country. We are a dying country, drowning in debt and strangled by inflation and fuel costs. You can ignore my post, but the facts remain. Frank
            Last edited by Frankiarmz; 12-10-2012, 10:13 AM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Liar

              Franki,

              To anwer one of your questions, "NO" I do not think that raising taxes on the 2% will cure the problem!"

              But, we definitely have got to increase the revenue side of the problem and as I pointed out, this problem launched itself under Reagon. We have got to correct that, immediately. But we cannot stop there. This nation IS in trouble and we have got to attack it almost on a "War" footing. I am against tax breaks and I think even those making $250,000 and less, should see a tax increase; maybe not back to the levels that they once were, but I think each and every one of us needs to contribute to the revenue process.

              I also think that the whole tax system needs a major overhaul. That's tricky though, but only from the perspective that for every there may well be some negative side or inbalance that may occur. I do not have the wide perspective that takes into account all of these matters. I do know however that there are ridiculous loop-holes at the corporate level and those need to be fixed.

              But, I also know that those making upwards toward $100, 000 or more can well contribute more to the revenue process. What's another few hundred dollars mean to that kind of income.

              But to say that this is not fixable is just sillyness. Sounds like a close relative of mine who has two jobs, is high degreed, and certainly one of the smartest people I know. But, has acquired so much debt that he's frustrated, unhappy, and figuratively "drowning" in stress. If he needed a $1000 today, he'd be hard pressed to come up with that. Yet, he takes several vacations and getaways a year. He just has to escape! In his terms, he "lives hard and plays hard", but I know that he isn't enjoying either. And when you tell him he needs to cut back, he doesn't have a clue as to how to do that. It's like "What, if I cut out this or that, it's only going to amount to $40, or $60, or $100.... that isn't going to help me!!!"

              Well, a person, company, or government has to start somewhere... the point is they have got to "START". Raising taxes on the top 2% is that start. Then going after loopholes is perhaps another step, although I don't know if it should be the next step.

              You and I agree, the main thing is to get jobs. Jobs pay taxes, and they spend thier income, which creates other jobs and those pay taxes. Perhaps that was the side effects of WWII, when massive amounts of money were infused into American business. It made little difference that we made guns and bullets and planes, ships, tanks, etc. It probably didn't matter that most off these products had extremely limited lifespans. But, it was the government that made currency, paid companies who paid workers who, in turn paid taxes. Sure the debt went way up, but the money wasn't just given away... it was paid away, and the results of echelons of jobs, new developments, and taxes, taxes, taxes at all levels. The government got everybody busy, and the government spending in the process expanded the economy and all levels.

              But, just giving money (through welfare or tax breaks) does what for our economy, unless it is also accompanied by products made here in the U.S. I think we agree on the fact that it doesn't do any of us much long-term good, if we give each other another $3,000 a year in tax breaks, IF most of the things that the extra money will buy are from China. THAT has got to be fixed.

              Regarding the Healthcare problem, the answers are easy to find... but very difficult to put into effect. Obamacare isn't there to scuttle America, it is there to help the American people, stay out of bankrupsy because we might get sick. The sad part about it is that the Republican's, to the support of big business, restricked the price controls that were to be a part of that.

              All you have to do it just walk or drive around your town, or any town for that matter, to see where the big $$ are at. Hospitals are expanding everywhere you look. NOt just a little, but tremendously. For example, here in my area there is massive expansion. Guthrie, is building a brand new hospital, Lourdes has doubled the size of it's main facility, Wilson (UHS) is doing the same and is just now completing a major office building. There are pharmacies everywhere, probably a dozen for every McDonals in the area. Hey, it ISN't because we are getting sicker, it's because it is where the money is at! The Health Care industry is the fastest growing and probably the most profitable business to be invested in. It has doubled, just since 2001.

              And nothing there in Healthcare is cheap, affordable, or even 'economical'. We here in the United States pay considerably more than any other country in the world and the care really isn't any better.

              When my child was born 42 years ago, the three-day hospital stay cost just under $400. The insurance covered all but the telephone in the room, which was $8 out of my pocket. When I moved to Corning in 1973, a leisurely doctor's visit was $8, the insurance paid $6 of that and I paid the remaining $2. Today, that same medical office charges $174, and I'm crowded in there, wait close to an hour and get less than 15 minutes with the doctor. If I need something further checked, it immediately jumps to thousands of dollars.

              For example, a year or so ago, I needed an EKG... got it down the hall, and roughly a $100 was added for that 20-minute process. But then I had to go to the hospital for another appointment and a stress test. Then another appointent for a so-called "Nuclear" stress test. Total time for those was about an hour and a half, not counting the "waiting" time. Those two test got billed at close to $9,000 in total, and then probably another $1200 or so from people I didn't know or never saw. (I liken it to hiring you to paint my house and you give me a price that I agree to. You do the job, I pay you.... But then a month later I start getting prices from the guy who mixed your paint, the guy who sold you the ladder, and the guy who delivered it all.)

              Colleges are the same way, they too are expanding like crazy, but along with that their tuitions fees are rising faster than I can kept track of. Again, these are becoming places where money can be made with little oversight and restrictions.

              In the last thirty-plus years the whold of American enterprise has been somehow twisted. Profits, profits, profits are what it is all about. So, we as a country need to look there for revenue and for explanation as to why these kind of costs are rising. We no longer should have the priviledge of unbridled golden-parachute retirements, massive pensions for executives, or the unrealistic high salaries and bonuses that we pay out. Likewise we can't afford the pension plans and healthcare riches that go with public service and unionized jobs, no more than we can afford those for the top executives. Executive pay and bonus and retirement/separation payments need to be tied to performance, and even there restricted to more realistice terms.

              And on the bottom of the scale, practically no body should be just given a hand-out. Yes, there are those who might well deserve and need "charity", but I'm sick of seeing people on "county welfare" living high. Getting tatoo's, nails, hair styles, and God knows what else, while they are supposedly poor! Cities and counties all over the country are struggling to maintain their infrasture and clean up their streets and parks. Well, if I've got to pay someone money because they don't have a job or they haven't the skills, then they can damn well work picking up refuse, painting, and maintaining the communities in which they live. I don't believe in just giving people money.... everyone needs to earn it, in some way for the good of the community.

              CWS

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Liar

                Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                Franki,

                I am against tax breaks and I think even those making $250,000 and less, should see a tax increase; maybe not back to the levels that they once were, but I think each and every one of us needs to contribute to the revenue process.
                This is the problem you with liberals, you have no problems spending other people's money. Instead of talking about it, why don't you show us some action and make a sizable donation to the I.R.S.? I think a 10k -15k donation should suffice.

                I wish we could pass a law in this country, if a citizen wants something, they should be responsible paying for it...not everyone else. Democrats wouldn't have the guts to sign that bill, and either would progressive Republicans.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Liar

                  First off, I have no real & complete answer to the problems presented to us in the U.S. Nor I have read here or heard from any politician or political analyst a solution either.

                  CW. While the history lesson you provide for taxation may be accurate for the time, similar application today will NOT give the same results. I'm sure you know that all components must be reasonably similar in the equation to get the same performance. So many things are different now that if you did the same things I'm guessing you would get an exponential amount of other problems arising due to these actions that may be unpredictable with a good potential for failure of the plan.

                  You and I do have similar opinion and analysis of "where the money is" currently in the U.S. That is:

                  1) Healthcare. Why? It may be the only thing in the world that the rules of free market capitalism cannot be applied too.

                  2) Working for the government. You cannot have a system where the lowest of federal & state employees have more benefits than the majority of the private sector and the private sector paying the majority of it. Meanwhile, elected officials have become nothing more than independent capitalists serving themselves more than their country.

                  3) Education. Wanna' get rich? Open a University. I love education. Would go more if I had the time. But everyone has been lied too that their children will fail in life without it, they are qualified to go, and costs have ever increased passed the inflation and consumer price index. In short, it's an investment. If you don't have some good idea that there is a likely probability of return on your investment in 5 years then you have made ignorant decisions and probably should not have been admitted to the institution.

                  As far as massive increases in taxes, I'm pretty sure that will never work. I never said no increases or less loopholes, however a great increase will most likely result in failure. I've been studying people in other areas of behavior for a short while. What I've found is that if they can figure out that their is a higher likelihood of failure or they "can't win", time and time again.....they will not try to meet the goal.

                  Plumbus' post of The Laffer Curve seems to support this consistency. https://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/t42291/

                  Again, I don't know the overall fix. I know some wrongs when I see them. Unnecessary grants & tax breaks to get a business or professional sports team to their state. Lobbyists in general. Elected officials with benefits for life....that become lobbyists. CEO's or CFO's with some sort of ego-maniacal mental disorder to believe they are worth millions. Pursuit of lower labor costs over anything else. Etc. etc. etc.

                  Part of me wants to say it's the failure, breakdown, and ethics of the American family as much as anything. Twenty, thirty, and forty somethings moving in with their parents. Grandparents becoming daycare & primary care for their grandkids.

                  Black, white, red, yellow, whatever used to be embarrassed to get government assistance. I mean really embarrassed. And would not dream of having anything extra until they could get away from it. Now it has become the norm for many to be the opposite of this.

                  I could go on, but you've already seen it. It seems to many the Liberal Democrat wants to give everything away to all people regardless of their contribution. To others, it seems the Conservative Republican says I got mine, you get yours. Both should probably be thankful the other exists to create whatever "balance" we have with leanings one way or the other throughout our history.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Liar

                    Bob,

                    You certainly present an analysis that I would have difficulty argueing with, or really want to. Except perhaps the comparison between the 1940's and present situation. In that you have some very good points, in the fact that both our politicians and our people are not even close to the moral character that they were then. Many of us are still as stalwart, but of course we are very much in the minority I think. But for the politicians, well that I just don't know; if you really look back you'll find as much right and left leaning as ever I think.

                    But overall, I am still of the opinion (and think that even recent history proves the issue) that if the government continues to cut back on investing in the American people AND only gives breaks to the rich and to corporations we will continue down the path that we have been on for the last several decades.

                    But you do make a very good point regarding government assistance to the poor. A point that I very much agree with! There are enormous numbers of people receiving aid without any sense of shame, regret, or even the slightest misgivings. I think that a major reform would be to fix that problem immediately and I'd start by having every state and county address the issue. That of course would be responded to by the State and County courts and particular the ACLU and perhaps even driven up to the Supreme Court.

                    Ooops phone call... I'll continue this later.

                    CWS


                    Continued....

                    At one time, "Welfare" or "assistance" was on the level of "subsistance" (I think that was the term). It provided a person or family with the "basics" of life. Food provided was often directly Dept. of Agriculture surplus, channeled through the county agency. Nothing fancy, just white labeled cans of vegetables, and fruit, and a carton of butter and sometimes a ham, etc. Rent was constrolled and often paid directly by the county. The objective was to provide for survival for those who were not able to feed or shelter themselves.

                    But somewhere the case was presented that this was "demeaning" and thus and embarrassment and that the poor not only should be fed and sheltered, but that they had the "Right" to do so without embarrassment, they had the "Right" to live as the working class people lived. So, at first it was "food stamps" and then later a "card" in which the holder could buy their own food and not be "embarrassed" by standing in line too long as the cashier reviewed their purchases and matched the "stamps" to the product type.

                    Today, at least here in NY, a person with a "county card" can go through the line and buy just about anything. Nothing is evident that they are on "assistance" and though there are supposed to be some restrictions, a typical Walmart cashier won't put themselves in a position to be an enforcer.

                    When I was a little kid, my Grandmother in N. Carolina was on "assistance". They lived in a three-room, lap-boarded, tin-roof "shack" (as my father called it) with an out-house and only one cold water spicot in the kitchen... that drained through the floor onto the ground. The government paid the rent and provided her and my crippled grandfather with cans of food and stuff as previously described. My father went down and installed an inside toilet and a septic system. And then, with the aid of a couple of uncles, bought them a refrigerator, a new stove, and a hotwater tank. A few months later, they lost their "assistance", as the government felt that if they had relatives that could provide them with such luxuries, than they certainly didn't need any help from the government!

                    I think that is too harsh, and just plain stupid. But, I think we have gone way overboard with providing the poor with economic equality when it comes to purchasing. Why should a welfare person be able to spend close to $100 for "snacks" (I've seen that on several occasions), or other food products that any number of us might find excessive. Why should I ever see a "welfare" person in the hair or nail salon, or find any of them wearing tatoos, piercings, and/or anything that amounts to wasteful money... expendatures beyond the necessities of life! That money, is our money... the money earned and paid by those of us who are or have worked for a living.

                    But, I can say the same about big business too. Why should you and I or anyone, pay the extremes we see at the gas pump, and yet pay the oil industry the subsidies and tax breaks that they get? Why should I have to take a cut from my employer only to find that they took $Millions from the government to build or enhance their business, and then didn't pay ANY TAXES? Welfare is very much on both ends.

                    CWS
                    Last edited by CWSmith; 12-11-2012, 12:00 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Liar

                      We on the Forum can discuss, argue and or agree on these issues but in the real world I don't see any hope for meaningful solutions. The only way to keep folks who receive assistance honest is through the use of government inspectors. Taxpayer money is paying for the assistance, so I see no defense or objection to prevent inspections to document the results of that help. I say this to hear myself speak, but it won't happen.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Liar

                        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                        You shouldn't be confused because democrats would be saying the same of a republican President abusing a legal process. That's the down side of party affiliation. it doesn't encourage a person to think independently and see the obvious. Read my post above and think for yourself. Where is the money to pay for all these entitlements and debt? The jobs are not here, the debt is growing, we consume more than we produce. The cost of our energy is too high, and our consumer spending continues to enrich a brutal super power that crushes human rights, manipulates it's dollar, pollutes without concern, and supports enemies of democracy. When shaun hannity insulted Americans who objected to things President Bush was doing, I found his behavior despicable. I feel the same way today regarding people such as myself who object to how President Obama is handling serious issues facing our country, and how we are addressed. The Presdient has a lot of powers under the constitution, abusing those powers to further his own agenda does not make for a good leader in my opinion. We desperately need a plan to address the things I mentioned and swift action by both parties to get things done.

                        I am amazed at how anyone can defend the President's support of the environmentalist's agenda, when so many Americans are in a survival mode regarding fuel costs? Tell me how tens of millions of Americans get off unemployment, food stamps, and other entitlements, how the sixteen trillion and growing debt gets paid, and what the President has in mind beyond raising taxes on the rich? Look beyond the arguments here and demand answers to the problems. When I voted for President Obama the fist time I had great hope for meaningful change, what I observed was a party driven agenda that did nothing to resolve the aforementioned issues. Healthcare for all, higher education for all, social security, medicare, pollution free environment, great achievements of a thriving country. We are a dying country, drowning in debt and strangled by inflation and fuel costs. You can ignore my post, but the facts remain. Frank
                        Frank I was being sarcastic. Of course I'm not confused. We all know people who take their political parties seriously pretty much worship their leaders and act like the other parties are the devil. In this case calling the president a dictator just because what he is trying to advocate things that do not align with their thinking.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Liar

                          Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                          In this case calling the president a dictator just because what he is trying to advocate things that do not align with their thinking.
                          I never in my lifetime seen a president with a condescending tone before....he talks down to the American people instead of to the American people. He's the only president I ever seen scold the supreme court justices live on national tv. But the first 3 words of the Constitution are? That's who should be "dictating" not the president. But this is all done by design as it's a play right out of the Saul Alinsky playbook. Read his book "Rules for Radicals".
                          Last edited by Flux; 12-11-2012, 05:59 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Liar

                            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                            You shouldn't be confused because democrats would be saying the same of a republican President abusing a legal process. That's the down side of party affiliation. it doesn't encourage a person to think independently and see the obvious. Read my post above and think for yourself. Where is the money to pay for all these entitlements and debt? The jobs are not here, the debt is growing, we consume more than we produce. The cost of our energy is too high, and our consumer spending continues to enrich a brutal super power that crushes human rights, manipulates it's dollar, pollutes without concern, and supports enemies of democracy. When shaun hannity insulted Americans who objected to things President Bush was doing, I found his behavior despicable. I feel the same way today regarding people such as myself who object to how President Obama is handling serious issues facing our country, and how we are addressed. The Presdient has a lot of powers under the constitution, abusing those powers to further his own agenda does not make for a good leader in my opinion. We desperately need a plan to address the things I mentioned and swift action by both parties to get things done.

                            I am amazed at how anyone can defend the President's support of the environmentalist's agenda, when so many Americans are in a survival mode regarding fuel costs? Tell me how tens of millions of Americans get off unemployment, food stamps, and other entitlements, how the sixteen trillion and growing debt gets paid, and what the President has in mind beyond raising taxes on the rich? Look beyond the arguments here and demand answers to the problems. When I voted for President Obama the fist time I had great hope for meaningful change, what I observed was a party driven agenda that did nothing to resolve the aforementioned issues. Healthcare for all, higher education for all, social security, medicare, pollution free environment, great achievements of a thriving country. We are a dying country, drowning in debt and strangled by inflation and fuel costs. You can ignore my post, but the facts remain. Frank
                            Blue-Can, you think Flux was out of line calling President Obama a dictator, I get it. I still don't understand how you can dismiss the things I mentioned in my post above? I could not stand how former President Bush pandered to the president of mexico and complimented illegals working in our country.The fact that our great country was built by immigrants, does not excuse those who break our immigration laws and ignore our borders. I had objections to some of the things President Bush did, but I find our situation under President Obama much more critical. Respond to my post above if you find fault with my observations. Instead of objecting to how people describe the President, and making that your sore spot, object to my post and correct my mistakes. Shaun hannity thought he could make those who opposed President Bush seem unpatriotic. He was mistaken, and that kind of censorship does not work any better because The President is a democrat, or Black. I still believe our nation grows stronger throw dissent. I would like for the tone to reamin respectful, but I understand the frustration given the seriousness of our many problems and the lack of results.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Liar

                              I had a reverse shoulder operation four weeks ago and out of a total cost of $30,000 for hospital and surgeon and my out of pocket expenses was $500.00 and medicare and my private health fund payed the rest CW so without a govenment medicare I would have been in trouble if I go to a local GP or specialist have blood tests X`rays or MIR etc medicare pays the major part of the bill I pay between 1.5 to 2 percent of my gross taxable yearly income plus my private health insurance and this is what government is for to bring citizens together so all contribute to help each other and why we call it civilization we help the rich and the poor I wouldn`t like to live in a world where it was everyone for them selfves as flux feels.
                              I am afraid you have had it to good for to long and what the rest of the world has been paying for just living you are going to have to pay for as well what do you pay for cars fuel food itune songs etc have always been cheaper in the US compared to the rest of the western world

                              Tony

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