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  • #16
    Re: Fiscal Cliff?

    I read an opinion piece last night that speculated that some Dem pols wouild like us to go over the cliff, a huge tax increase they don't have to vote for. Hadn't thought of that. As for the redistribution of wealth, if you look at the GAO numbers, you'll see that the big chunks are SS (which we pay for), medicare/medicaid and defense. Welfare and other public hand outs are not that big percentage wise.

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    • #17
      Re: Fiscal Cliff?

      Originally posted by Plumbus View Post
      I read an opinion piece last night that speculated that some Dem pols wouild like us to go over the cliff, a huge tax increase they don't have to vote for. Hadn't thought of that. As for the redistribution of wealth, if you look at the GAO numbers, you'll see that the big chunks are SS (which we pay for), medicare/medicaid and defense. Welfare and other public hand outs are not that big percentage wise.
      I would like to "think" most people know what cuts needs to be made, and there are some painful things to cut, but a certain party base will not have any of it. Just like that certain base will have no parts with a "balanced budget amendment", they think it's foolish. Somewhere a long the line (before my time), common sense got thrown out the window.

      I also agree with the person who's against charitable donations to other countries, it's time to take care of our own and our fiscal house.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Fiscal Cliff?

        Originally posted by Flux View Post
        I would like to "think" most people know what cuts needs to be made, and there are some painful things to cut, but a certain party base will not have any of it. Just like that certain base will have no parts with a "balanced budget amendment", they think it's foolish. Somewhere a long the line (before my time), common sense got thrown out the window.

        I also agree with the person who's against charitable donations to other countries, it's time to take care of our own and our fiscal house.
        Flux, hands down the democrats are in favor of providing entitlments and ignoring responsible fiscal behavior, but the republicans have been part of the wasteful spending. President Bush was the first President to borrow from communist china, and I think he signed off on NAFTA that clinton started. Both parties allowed overspending on all sorts of things, while they did nothing to stop businesses and jobs from leaving the USA. All of this did happen in your time.
        Regarding the "charitable" donations to other countries, I think a lot of that is nothing more than bribe money. The down side is that after we pay billins in bribes, our so called friends still don't back us up!
        Is there anyone here who thinks we can save our economy without spending cuts, entitlement cuts, and changing the tax codes as part of the solution?

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        • #19
          Re: Fiscal Cliff?

          Anyone else have a problem with this?

          Obama Orders Pay Raise For Congress, Federal Workers, Joe Biden

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Fiscal Cliff?

            Originally posted by Flux View Post
            I think everyone who pays taxes and wants the 16 trillion dollar plus debt addressed objects to it. I would include all those greedy Union workers who formerly worked at twinkies and had gone through two pay and benefits cuts. There is a hypocracy with giving raises when there in no balanced budget and a massive debt to be taken care of first.

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            • #21
              Re: Fiscal Cliff?

              I don't know Flux. On one hand seeing any of these Congressman get a raise is a bit abrasive, considering their performance. The "Biden" question seems to be a bit "pointed", but again I don't know how we can give any raise in consideration of the debt. Either way, their new income amount still is less than many on here are making or at least what one might think we're making, considering all of the alarm we express on raising taxes for those making over $250,000 a year.

              For Federal workers, I'm not sure... they've had a "freeze" on raises for the last two years according to the second paragraph (in your link) and even now would only get a 1/2 to 1% increase. I don't know how many of us would have put up with that, IF we had a choice of course.

              *****

              Regarding the overall question of the so-called "Fiscal Cliff", the most immediate impact would be that as of January 1, TWO million people will be dropped from the extended Federal Unemployment benefits. That of course is going to put them out of their homes and apartments almost immediately and send them scrambling to find food from local pantries and other sources. The applications for "Welfare" will probably be thier only path to getting by.

              Those two million people, with thier families will no longer have thier unemployment benefit money and that will be immediately taken out of the "spending" within local economies, and instead of groceries, rent, gasoline, etc. expenditures will instead become burdens at a local level. That alone will be a serious impact on the economy.

              Cuts in the military and other government agencies will no doubt lead to cancelation of contracts. Here in my area that may lead to serious layoff concerns for a couple of the major defense contractors... which adds even more burden to the local economy.

              Here we are doing pretty well in the "recovery", unemployment is down, building is increasing, and the economy is expanding.... all of that is going to come to a halt. Already we are seeing "numbers" that this indecission in Washington is making people very cautious.

              On the low income side of things, I don't know the impact. I'm guessing it isn't going to make much of a difference as those people don't pay taxes anyway. On the upper end of the scale, any increase isn't much more than "pocket change". When your income is several hundred thousand or more, what does almost any tax increase mean? Like you don't get to buy a new BMW this year or maybe you need to close up the home in the Bahamas? Even a 20% increase doesn't hurt very much if you're still left with most of a $ Million or so.

              Where it's going to hurt is the middle income guys. If you're making $70K to $150K a year and you're living on the very edge of that, as far too many people do, then that's going to mean some sacrifice and probably a lot of whining.

              For me, I personally don't care and even if I had to fork over another $1,500 or $2,000 it wouldn't hurt me all that much. I'm retired, have two houses, pay taxes and maintenance on both and my yearly income is right above the so-called poverty level. I don't want for much, don't need much, and have lived with enough "pad" to be comfortable with that. I don't like that the so-called poor can get "assistance" and still have their nails done, get tatoo's, buy $150 atheletic shoes, and drive better cars than I do.

              I also don't like the rich snobs thinking that they are too good to pay taxes and have enough "write-offs" to ensure that they don't.

              I don't like Corporations who do the same, and at the same time steal our jobs and move them to China (and elsewhere) to increase their profitability.

              Somebody, and really that means everybody, has got to pay thier fair share and nobody should be getting off FREE. The poor need to work for what they get (even if that means sweeping the streets and hauling garbage) and the rich need to pay for the benefits of living and being protected in this great country... and since they can afford it and reap more of the benefit, they should well pay more.

              CWS

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Fiscal Cliff?

                And the easiest way to have everyone pay their fair share is a flat tax with no deductions or loopholes. All income gets taxed except for those who are below the poverty level. And the poverty level only lets you count two children plus a spouse, after that you better find some solution to having more kids. For business, no loopholes or deductions. To change the percentage would require a majority vote by the people in a national election.
                ---------------
                Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                ---------------
                “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                ---------
                "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
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                sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Fiscal Cliff?

                  Bob, we are full of good ideas, and what needs to be done but our legislators seem unable or unwilling to implement those necessary changes. CWS mentioned the "recovery", but I find any suggestion of a recovery misleading. We still have a massive debt that needs to be brought into every conversation deaing with our economic well being. We still have a trade imbalance with communist china that respresents our money going out and not coming back at the same rate. Aside from the lost manufacturing jobs there are all the tech and telephone support jobs that have been outsourced to consider. Some of us can sit at the keyboard and relax because we can pay some more in taxes, but for millions that is not an option. I see any encouraging numbers showing a recovery, counterbalanced with high costs of fuel and inflation. A few good days for a patient who is dying from multiple illnesses is not much cause for celebration. How do we pay down the debt, balance the budget, employ millions, cut entitlements, and truly feel good about our future?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Fiscal Cliff?

                    "On the low income side of things, I don't know the impact."

                    I can give you an idea here CW. Just to give everyone here an idea of just how hard things are for us today, in 1969, the Fed minimum wage was at $1.60 per hour. Gasoline was at 35 cents per gallon. If you do the math, a man, in 1969, only had to work about 12-13 minutes to afford one gallon of gasoline. Today, the minimum wage is $7.25, with gasoline at about $3.50, in CT and many places it's higher. So we have to work almost 30 minutes, just to afford that same gallon of gasoline, just to get to work to pay for the gas in the first place. I'm just talking about wages alone, nevermind paying into Social Security, property taxes, and the plethora of other taxes. In other words, in order to match the spending power my parents had, the Federal minimum wage needs to be at $14.50. Don't even get me started on the things we pay for today, that were given for free to previous generations.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Fiscal Cliff?

                      A few comments have been made about foreign aid. If you look at the actual numbers, you'll see that we don't give near as much direct aid as we give military aid. We basically are supporting those who support our (read our power structure's) interests.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Fiscal Cliff?

                        " things we pay for today, that were given for free to previous generations." I am from the "previous generation" group. I wish you would name some of the things we were given for free.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Fiscal Cliff?

                          Originally posted by Pipestone Kid View Post
                          " things we pay for today, that were given for free to previous generations." I am from the "previous generation" group. I wish you would name some of the things we were given for free.
                          Water.
                          Television.
                          Radio.
                          Shall I continue?

                          Things you have gotten at much more affordable prices:
                          Gasoline. (I'm sure you never had to work a half hour at minimum wage just for a gallon!)
                          Education. (I have seen morgage loans that were smaller)
                          Bread so low priced, it might as well be free. (Paid $3.59 for one lousy loaf today)

                          So whatever things you had, that may not have been given, all you had to do was lift a finger to get, today we have to ball a fist to get the same things.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Fiscal Cliff?

                            Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
                            Water.
                            Television.
                            Radio.
                            Shall I continue?

                            Things you have gotten at much more affordable prices:
                            Gasoline. (I'm sure you never had to work a half hour at minimum wage just for a gallon!)
                            Education. (I have seen morgage loans that were smaller)
                            Bread so low priced, it might as well be free. (Paid $3.59 for one lousy loaf today)

                            So whatever things you had, that may not have been given, all you had to do was lift a finger to get, today we have to ball a fist to get the same things.
                            As someone who once worked for $1.60 an hour, I think you need to put things in perspective.

                            Water - Was never free
                            Television - Is still free over the air
                            Radio - Is still free over the air

                            Please continue

                            Gasoline - After adjusting for inflation, our gas is equivalent to 1980 prices. Now subtract the road taxes from that and you have an even cheaper gas.
                            Education - My parents mortgage was $20,000 in 1969 and we had a decent size home.
                            Bread - The price of bread is about the same when you compare todays minimum wage versus the minimum wage in 1969.

                            Mark
                            Last edited by ToUtahNow; 12-29-2012, 10:37 PM.
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Fiscal Cliff?

                              [QUOTE=tailgunner;389581]Water.
                              Television.
                              Radio.
                              Shall I continue?

                              Things you have gotten at much more affordable prices:
                              Gasoline. (I'm sure you never had to work a half hour at minimum wage just for a gallon!)
                              Education. (I have seen morgage loans that were smaller)
                              Bread so low priced, it might as well be free. (Paid $3.59 for one lousy loaf today)

                              So whatever things you had, that may not have been given, all you had to do was lift a finger to get, today we have to ball a fist to get the same things.[/QUOTE)

                              To add to Marks post, I started at $1.06--before taxes. We had no coffee breaks, no vacation, no health care, no pension, no sick leave, We didn't have a tv (they cost $400 then) no radios on the job, didn't worry about gasoline--you needed a car for that.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Fiscal Cliff?

                                I was ten years old in 1963 and we had 7 tv channels all free of charge. Radio was free as it is now but no satellite radio(pay) available. Telephone in the house was $10 a month, bread $.50 a loaf and gasoline $.27 cents a gallon. Today we are paying for the luxury of crystal clear cable tv reception and many more channels (I pay $100). The convenience of cell phones, ipods, laptops.
                                In my opinion expenses are many more and more costly, life is much more complicated by all these things. The days of being able to work on your own car are gone! Many consumer goods such as appliances last about a quarter as long as their counterparts of the 1960's.
                                Just my opinion from personal observations, life was much less complicated, expensive and far more enjoyable forty years ago.
                                We had drunk drivers but no distracted drivers talking on cell phones and texting while driving. If your car broke down a new alternator, starter or carb was under $100, and you could easily change it yourself.

                                I use all the conveniences, all the electronics, and I hate them! I hate my modern life! I pay $4 for gas in CT, and $4 for a loaf of bread.
                                I also remember my Mom taling me to the doctor or having him make a house call, that my friends was "Health care". Well worth the ten dollar charge. A hot dog was $.25 cents, a slice of pizza was $.50. I was better off making $100 a week it sure went further as I remember.

                                Oh yeah, I love that all the water fountains are gone and bottled water is $2.00. Insane!!! During a recent trip to the mall I told my wife I would drink out of a toilet bowl before I paid for water.
                                Last edited by Frankiarmz; 12-29-2012, 11:42 PM.

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