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Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

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  • #61
    Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

    Frankie, I don't think most folks are opposed to keeping a gun for self protection. They are opposed to keeping assault weapons with 30 round clips for self protection and we will NEVER get a consensus of opinion on what is the best self defense weapon even from gun enthusiasts let alone the general public. Like most things though, this issue will fade away in a day or so with no real resolution and I suspect, no new legislation (at the national level) which is exactly what the politicians want to happen. Some look at Feinsteins latest bill and get all riled up over it but I have to believe that she knew exactly where that bill would go and only introduced it so that she could say "see, I tried" to her constituents. Its all trial ballons, smoke and mirrors. To Flux and Ironrange, Relax boys, nobody's coming for your guns. Try not to get caught up in the hysteria of the moment. Rule #1 Anytime a committee is formed to look into something it means they have no intention of actually doing anything.
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    • #62
      Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
      Correct me if you think I am wrong but there is a justifiable need for law abiding citizens to be armed. The response time in my town varies from several minutes to about twenty.
      Franki,

      I don't think you will find anywhere in my past, that I am a proponent of citizens NOT having guns. He!! man, I'm armed and I totally agree with you that the response time of the police is not going to be timely when faced with a breakin or even an aggressor threatening you in your yard. However, one needs to very well understand the parameters of "defense" and the proper use of the weapon at hand. An assault rifle is simply not the best choice, unless you are under siege... and the only imaginable "siege" that I can readily think of is if the police are at your door. Otherwise, a shotgun is probably your best defense, or maybe a handgun. Most other weapons will send projectiles well beyond the limits of your property.... I'd hate to think that I killed one of my neighbors with a round or two. (On the other hand though, I'd hate to mess up my furniture and hardwood floors with a shotgun blast too! )

      Regarding the economy... IT is improving, albeit ever so slowly. The way it will improve is to put people to work... the more that work, the more taxes are paid. "Economics" isn't really a big mystery, or at least it shouldn't be. You borrow money, and with it you invest in things that make money... that's how business works. I've done that, and probably almost everyone on this board who are in business have done that. So, you can't cut out the government "investments", though I think we all agree that it needs to be done with a lot more wisdom.

      I also think that there should be no "free rides", regardless of which end of the economy you live on. If you (and I don't mean "you" personally) need something, you need to pay for it. One shouldn't get anything for absolutely free... otherwise it (and it's expense) has no meaning and hence has no respect as to it's cost or its benefit to the person receiving it.

      The whole economic thing, liberal give-aways needs to be addressed. I could go down a list of things that I would change if I had the power. I'm NOT a liberal, but I'm also not a far-right conservative either. Guns (and the 2nd amendment) have their place, but this thread certainly is demonstrative on how much of a struggle this subject can be. Too many of us thinking in the extremes I think.

      CWS

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      • #63
        Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

        CWS, I was more interested in your response to the whole conversation of how to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill considering our economic situation. I don't agree that we are in a recovery, not with a debt growing in the trillions. Prices at the food store continue to climb as size of many items shrink, New size of what used to be 16oz oreo cookies now 14.8oz. Unemployment figures can be flubbed, but what I pay at the pump and in the stores tells me our dollar is worth less and less. Just my opinion but now is not the time to be agressive on reducing pollution, rather than forming strong alliances with industry to increase American jobs.

        The incident in CT while tragic was nothing compared to the lives lost every year due to violent crimes where other weapons are used or the thousands of lives lost due to distracted drivers. I feel the President needs to stop killing the clock on real issues such as unemployment and the economy in favor of grand standing children for press ops. There is still no balanced budget, no plan to reduce spending and pay down the mounting debt, how can he in good conscience make the proposals he made? I don't feel confident about where we are headed with President Obama.

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        • #64
          Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

          Originally posted by Pipestone Kid View Post
          First off, I don't think a lot of police officers who say they won't enforce the law. Do they get to choose what laws they will enforce and which they won't? Second, Mark, you forgot one small group of people who could be used to enforce the law.--The US military.
          Federal troops can not be brought to bear against the people, at least not without another violation to the Constitution, but National Guard troops could.
          ---------------
          Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
          ---------------
          “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
          ---------
          "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
          ---------
          sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

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          • #65
            Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

            Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
            Federal troops can not be brought to bear against the people, at least not without another violation to the Constitution, but National Guard troops could.
            Not quite true. Read the following---Historical Role of Federal Forces in Law Enforcement
            Federal military troops have been used often to enforce the laws of the Nation. In the past two hundred fifteen years, the Army and, to a lesser extent, the Marine Corps has enforced the laws in over 167 incidents, or about 0.75 times per year on the average. Federal troops have been called on to quell insurrections, enforce unpopular federal laws, govern the seven states of the defeated Confederacy, protect minorities from harm, quell race riots, police the lawless West, guard the borders, break strikes, protect key assets against sabotage, seize and operate war plants, enforce civil rights laws, operate the postal service, and protect the population from lawless elements. (See U.S. Army Center of Military History, The Role of Federal Military Forces in Domestic Disorders, 1789-1878 (1988).)

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            • #66
              Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

              Frankie,

              I think you and I will never agree on President Obama. What you label as grandstanding, is nothing at all out of the normal. Every President and almost every elected official will use a "backdrop" that fits the occasion of his proposal, media event, etc. Having those children who wrote proposals to him, join him in that proposal was a nice event. Was that really any differnt than GW going to Louisiana and stopping for a 5-minute photo op? Yes, it was... but only from the point of view that at least with Obama, there was meaning and not just a situation where he quickly took off his jacket, rolled up his sleeves and had his staff grab one white girl and one black girl for the two minute event. Or how about ol' Mitt.... where he had one of his supporters demand that the coal-mining employees show up for a "backdrop" or else loose their jobs... and then having them docked a day's pay!

              All elected officials do "photo ops"... just some have sincerity and do it with a bit more finesse.

              Regarding your comparison to automobile accidents and "distracted drivers". The difference between that and the gun issue are many. First off, we have laws, though very hard to inforce on "distracted drivers". We also have speed limits and other laws governing drivers and cars. There's $Billions spent on safer more efficient highways, intersections, driver's ed, better safer cars, licensing, inspections, roadside safety checks, yearly inspections, and daily monitoring by police. There a state licensing system and an interstate sharing of that data.

              Now, if the current NRA was to manage the automobile situation... well, just imagine: Everybody could drive... NO license required. There would be no limits on the size or the speed of cars. No speed limits, no road signs, no safety features... IN fact, there would be no regulation whatsoever of automobile manufacturing. The brakes could fail, the engine could rev, anything.. as the NRA would prevent any oversight whatsoever of the manufacturing and sale and use and function of vehicles. You wouldn't have to have fenders, dual brake systems, bumpers, mirrors, seat belt or even seats for that matter. Any wheel and any tire would do... NO MORE tread inspections at all. Just think, no mufflers and no concern about pollution controls. You could even just have a couple of open buckets of gas in the back seat with a pump feeding the fuel system. Heck... some of us could even conjur up some surplus jet engines to move our vehicles down the road if we wanted. Hey... we'd have the "RIGHT" to posess any kind of vehicle and do anything to it we wanted.

              And, it wouldn't matter how many accidents we might have, or whether we are intoxicated or even blind or incompetant or anything else. If the NRA had it's way, there would be no licensing, no plates, no ID tags, and absolutely no license required to drive... even a big rig or anything else that could be put on the road. And, it would save this country of our $Billions each year... since the police would have no regulation or laws to enforce; there simply wouldn't be any reason for them to be out there hassleing us over exercizing our rights.

              Imagine that...

              CWS
              Last edited by CWSmith; 01-26-2013, 07:30 PM.

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              • #67
                Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

                CWS, I appreciate the reply but what about responding to my comments on the economy, inflation, and all that. Thanks

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

                  Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                  Frankie,

                  I think you and I will never agree on President Obama. What you label as grandstanding, is nothing at all out of the normal. Every President and almost every elected official will use a "backdrop" that fits the occasion of his proposal, media event, etc. Having those children who wrote proposals to him, join him in that proposal was a nice event. Was that really any differnt than GW going to Louisiana and stopping for a 5-minute photo op? Yes, it was... but only from the point of view that at least with Obama, there was meaning and not just a situation where he quickly took off his jacket, rolled up his sleeves and had his staff grab one white girl and one black girl for the two minute event. Or how about ol' Mitt.... where he had one of his supporters demand that the coal-mining employees show up for a "backdrop" or else loose their jobs... and then having them docked a day's pay!

                  All elected officials do "photo ops"... just some have sincerity and do it with a bit more finesse.

                  Regarding your comparison to automobile accidents and "distracted drivers". The difference between that and the gun issue are many. First off, we have laws, though very hard to inforce on "distracted drivers". We also have speed limits and other laws governing drivers and cars. There's $Billions spent on safer more efficient highways, intersections, driver's ed, better safer cars, licensing, inspections, roadside safety checks, yearly inspections, and daily monitoring by police. There a state licensing system and an interstate sharing of that data.

                  Now, if the current NRA was to manage the automobile situation... well, just imagine: Everybody could drive... NO license required. There would be no limits on the size or the speed of cars. No speed limits, no road signs, no safety features... IN fact, there would be no regulation whatsoever of automobile manufacturing. The brakes could fail, the engine could rev, anything.. as the NRA would prevent any oversight whatsoever of the manufacturing and sale and use and function of vehicles. You wouldn't have to have fenders, dual brake systems, bumpers, mirrors, seat belt or even seats for that matter. Any wheel and any tire would do... NO MORE tread inspections at all. Just think, no mufflers and no concern about pollution controls. You could even just have a couple of open buckets of gas in the back seat with a pump feeding the fuel system. Heck... some of us could even conjur up some surplus jet engines to move our vehicles down the road if we wanted. Hey... we'd have the "RIGHT" to posess any kind of vehicle and do anything to it we wanted.

                  And, it wouldn't matter how many accidents we might have, or whether we are intoxicated or even blind or incompetant or anything else. If the NRA had it's way, there would be no licensing, no plates, no ID tags, and absolutely no license required to drive... even a big rig or anything else that could be put on the road. And, it would save this country of our $Billions each year... since the police would have no regulation or laws to enforce; there simply wouldn't be any reason for them to be out there hassleing us over exercizing our rights.

                  Imagine that...

                  CWS
                  I couldn`t have explained it as eloquently and straight to the point as you have CWS

                  Tony

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                  • #69
                    Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

                    Originally posted by AFM View Post
                    I couldn`t have explained it as eloquently and straight to the point as you have CWS

                    Tony
                    Ditto, the most level headed assessment.

                    Ron


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                    • #70
                      Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

                      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                      CWS, I was more interested in your response to the whole conversation of how to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill considering our economic situation. I don't agree that we are in a recovery, not with a debt growing in the trillions. Prices at the food store continue to climb as size of many items shrink, New size of what used to be 16oz oreo cookies now 14.8oz. Unemployment figures can be flubbed, but what I pay at the pump and in the stores tells me our dollar is worth less and less. Just my opinion but now is not the time to be agressive on reducing pollution, rather than forming strong alliances with industry to increase American jobs.

                      And....

                      CWS, I appreciate the reply but what about responding to my comments on the economy, inflation, and all that. Thanks

                      Frank,

                      Seems to me that over the last year I've responded to these questions of yours so many times... but like the "evolution" thread, you are not in agreement with my answers. That's okay of course, but I don't think you are accepting of my anwers as even answers... agreement or not. I've even framed the answers in terms of your own family, tried to frame them in really simple terms, tried to explain them on larger terms, tried to frame them on historical terms... and yet you don't seem to want to understand any of it. It's sort of like "evolution" in that you don't accept either "creationism" or "Darwinism"... and you want another answer... but you don't know what that is and you don't offer any hint as to the path you might want the answers to fall. Frustrating.

                      We can go around again, but I don't think this thread is where we should talk economic recovery... do you? Maybe you could start another thread and we can go there, I do like the challenge.

                      As I said in my last post here... "Regarding the economy... IT is improving, albeit ever so slowly. The way it will improve is to put people to work"

                      Putting people to work is the answer, but only in part... but it's a really big part. What you have seen in the increased debt of the last four years is an attempt to recover from a major economic disaster, largely (but not entirely) created by the previous administration. When you inherit something as broke as the economy was, you have very limited choices. It's like buying a house and finding it totally decayed and leaking badly. So, you can either abandon it or invest in it and we know we can't abandon the country.

                      Mostly the crisis of this country is due to the economic policies of conservatives propping up American Corporations and increasing profits to the very few rich, at the destruction of the working middle class. The economic numbers show that quite clearly. The question is how to reverse that trend.

                      Regarding your complaint over what you pay for gas, and your lack of "cookies"... well I won't trivialize that, because they are very real feeling that many of us have. But, we are in a world economy when it comes to gasoline. We in this country pay significantly less than those in Europe and probably those in Australia and in Asia too. We hear so much about the great "pipeline" from Alberta and I've pointed out before... this is a parallel pipeline, one already exists, or so I've been told by my engineering friends that have placed equipment in Alberta as well as pumping equipment on most all of the various pipelines. We also make equipment for refineries, oil platforms, and for franking. (Remember I worked for the company that provided the largest compressor equipment in those Alberta fields... I worked and illustrated the proposals, the manual, and even the sales proposals (You want to see a picture of the first installation of that equipment in Alberta?) But what you don't realize and what nobody seems to want to hear, is that this pipeline is NOT primarily for U.S. production use... it is so we can export this crap somewhere else. IT's the same story with all this "shale" and "fracking" nonsense. It isn't for your use or mine at all. Yes, we may see some gas from it, but our farmlands, backyards and countryside is being exploited and our well water and lakes are being put at risk... SO WE CAN EXPORT THIS GAS.... and in so doing, we will always pay a "world-price" for it. It's no different than our lumber, our iron ore, or our copper... we get charged at the elevated price that we can sell elsewhere and sadly, we don't get the big quantity discounts or receive the kickbacks for doing the business.

                      Regarding Oreo's... hey man, it's like breakfast cereal. The farmer barely gets by and the middlemen squeeze every drop of profit they can out of it. Everything from icecream to cookies to chicken and beef and whatever. It gets thinner, smaller, less and often worse, cheaper ingredients. Crap happens to Twinkies and Twinkie employees... but Twinkie top management makes out pretty well.

                      CWS
                      Last edited by CWSmith; 01-27-2013, 02:11 AM.

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                      • #71
                        Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

                        CWS, thanks for the response and not trivializing some of my frivilous complaints. Where you blame the conservatives, I blame both, and where you see recovey I see more bad decisions and no recovery. I don't agree with the whole global economy thing because we either sink or swim depending on our internal path. We have always had cheaper gasoline than europe, and australia, and it was for that reason we not only had gas guzzler vehicles but found building up and moving to rural areas so attractive. My observation on this leads me to believe our population is so spread out and dependent on cheap gasoline that the rising cost deals another death blow to our citizenship. We don't have the resources to either afford more fuel efficient vehicles or a move back to the cities closer to our jobs.
                        I see the economy and the different issues we discuss in a practical, matter of fact way. We are not europe, or australia, we can't afford the same fuel costs. Given our real debt we can't afford to add more while blaming past administrations. Our agreement that we need to employ Americans means little if there is no massive effort to do that, and I can't imagine how or when that will happen. The proposals by the President are either unattainable in this economy, or they are not. I would like nothing more than healthcare for all Americans, clean air, water and soil, along with many other progressive goals, but my bottom line is that right now we can't possibly afford those things.
                        We are in a fight for survival and if we don't have cheaper gasoline to offset our cost to commute, we are left little as consumers. We either shore up our economy with meaningful action, or continue to mirror other failing economies. The cookies and icecream won't make or break us but the cost of gasoline and the debt will. I would like to share your enthusiasm, I just look at things in a more practical manner.
                        Last edited by Frankiarmz; 01-27-2013, 10:56 AM.

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                        • #72
                          Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

                          proposals by the President are either unattainable in this economy, or they are not. I would like nothing more than healthcare for all Americans, clean air, water and soil, along with many other progressive goals,

                          What is progressive about those goals? Shall we try to attain regressive goals instead? We can't all go back to farming and forestry to survive. Please spend some time learning about "progressive". Before bandying the word about.
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                          • #73
                            Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

                            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                            proposals by the President are either unattainable in this economy, or they are not. I would like nothing more than healthcare for all Americans, clean air, water and soil, along with many other progressive goals,

                            What is progressive about those goals? Shall we try to attain regressive goals instead? We can't all go back to farming and forestry to survive. Please spend some time learning about "progressive". Before bandying the word about.
                            NHM, healthcare for all is progressive in place of healthcare for those who can afford individual coverage. If as I suggest we can't afford progressive enviromental changes, then yes, we must accept to hold where we are or "regress" a bit to save our economy. Do you agree that we have lost manufacturing and other enviromentally sensitive industries because our EPA rules are prohibitive? I say now is not the time to sacrifice progress in these areas for economic survival. I don't support fishing with explosives, but if my survival depended on it and there was only one lake where I could either stick with bait while others used explosives, and starve, or level the palying field I choose to survive. We are at war with a super power that does not care about the environment or us. Do you really think it's wise to put ourselves at further financial burden to provide those progressive things that will further cripple our economy? Maybe you can afford a fuel efficient vehicle, or high priced gas, but you don't represent the millions of Americans who are falling behind. I say the money is not there, regardless of the well intended progressive goals. I understand the meaning of the word, do you understand the lack of funds to achieve them? I don't think so. How would you define the national debt, credit rating, unemployment numbers? I would like to see progress on those things first, that's all.

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                            • #74
                              Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

                              This nation was built on progress. There is no going backwards mad if we did whew would be far worse off than we are now. We will never bring back the shoe shops, textile mills, steel mills and all the other manufacturing we lost regardless of the government regulation or the EPA. It is a different world we live in now and like it or not, economies are and will forever more be global in scope. Tere is no use in idolizing the past. Time and progress marches on, we'll unless you live in the Middle East where they have been holding on to regressive policies for generations. Quit worrying about the national debt. It is a meaningless number that gets used more for political leverage than anything else.
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                              • #75
                                Re: Is the NRA becoming the next PETA?

                                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                                This nation was built on progress. There is no going backwards mad if we did whew would be far worse off than we are now. We will never bring back the shoe shops, textile mills, steel mills and all the other manufacturing we lost regardless of the government regulation or the EPA. It is a different world we live in now and like it or not, economies are and will forever more be global in scope. Tere is no use in idolizing the past. Time and progress marches on, we'll unless you live in the Middle East where they have been holding on to regressive policies for generations. Quit worrying about the national debt. It is a meaningless number that gets used more for political leverage than anything else.
                                Of course the progressive ideas of one person may be the regressive ideas to others.

                                Mark
                                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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