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  • #31
    Re: Peace Time Martial Law?

    Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
    YES! I was joking!. Franki is smart enough to know that.
    Read his response above.

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    • #32
      Re: Peace Time Martial Law?

      I guess if you wish to live in a world where your main concerns are the fear of your own government, then I guess you can believe almost anything.... and in fact, you not only believe such stories, but you actually go searching for them.

      There are always conspiricy theories, and everywhere you care to look, you can find "boogymen". Surely there are bad guys and evil governments, and evil people within even good governments. What surprises me though is how pro-party many of those people are who believe such things... and the party they are so pro for, is usually the party with the the power, the money, and the agenda.... but you still vote for them.

      What I do know a bit about is the Pearl Harbor incident and many other absolutely stupid things that have occurred in military history, because of some policy or concerns of the top brass. In the case of the "bunching up" of the aircraft, the primary concern of the command was that Hawaii had a number of Japanese residents and too many of the "white" command could little differ from one Asian to another. So we grouped the plains together because of concerns for sabotage by the locals. In that manner they could be more easily be guarded.

      The whole Pearl incident was a black-eye to our command structure and intelligence community. We didn't know how to use the new technology of radar, the radar itself didn't have solid communications to command, and most of the command was off to Sunday festivities. There was a long list of failures at almost every level... most of it based on our assumption that we were so superior that nobody would dare attack us. I lost an Uncle on the Oklahoma.

      And so it goes. Every war and far too many security issues have shown that we too often "fall down" in our vigilence.

      But when it comes to looking at things from a perspective of "Conspiracy"... Do we really address the issues of "Why?" "What to be gained?" and "Who would make gains from such an act?" Then, if you have answers, you need to ask the HOW's? Could such a crime be carried out technically? How many would have to be involved? How long would it take to carry out this plan? and... How could this be kept a secret?

      For example, one of the "stories" I heard some idiot state, was that there was NO furniture to be found. Okay, so in there was no furniture... how about the people who died? Are we to believe that all those people were a fabrication too? Or are we to believe that those people left thier desks and chairs and file cabinets, and telephones, and little desk ornaments the night before... and that the entire structures of both towers was somehow emptied during the night... with no one noticing all those people and moving trucks? And why wouldn't we notice all that traffic moving out of lower Manhatten... and where did all that stuff go, and where would it be warehoused? And probably most importantly, WHY?... for surely if you were going to take down the buildings, the funishings would represent little for the sake of costs!

      The problem with this 9-11 Conspiracy theory is that it offers no reason for those alledged conspirators... no motive, no proof of the logistics it would take, and not a single shred of evidence, even after all of these years... So, the 'conspiracy" becomes little more than a fairy-tale task of the producer.

      And, that has nothing whatsoever to say.... what about the Pentagon and 29 United?

      CWS

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      • #33
        Re: Peace Time Martial Law?

        CWS, I don't go for the whole 9-11 conspiracy, but for people who do believe it there are some valid questions raised. No doubt the planes were carrying fuel, but given the size of the towers,and contents, was there enough to "vaporize" people and contents?What about the massive water tanks on the roof? I don't have a clue what it would take or how long it would take to actually plan such a demolition, and involve the terrorists, but I'm sure if our government wanted it done it would happen. Why? Well that's another good question, would something that severe be done on purpose to get the nation behind a war? I don't think so.
        Last edited by Frankiarmz; 02-10-2013, 01:33 PM.

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        • #34
          Re: Peace Time Martial Law?

          cwsmith, I understand. Some people don't want to know the truth because it is contrary to their wold view. I cant argue with empirical evidence and the expertise of thousands of engineers.
          Regardless, why did building seven fall when no plane hit it?

          Although harder to prove, some believe Israel is behind it to spurn a war with Iran. It is a known fact the insurance policy was increased weeks before the trade centers collapse. A huge lobbyist group AIPEC controls much of USA domestic and foreign policy. Zionists control more than you think.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Peace Time Martial Law?

            Originally posted by AFM View Post
            When your ordered to do something you do it being in the armed forces is not a democracy your are told what to do and that is it
            I just have to laugh looking in from the other side of the world at the supposably land of the free and your one two three and so on ammendments and how worthless they really are and how the US is being dragged into the twenty first century kicking and screeming as nearly every other country has freedom is just a word and governments world wide couldn`t give a stuff about their citizens your just a number and they know all about you whether you like it or not from your birth certificate to your death certificate so stop complaining and get used to it number 1454976358721354697

            Tony
            Tony, you left out a very important part of our National Anthem, we are also the "Home of the Brave". And as Tailgunner stated he wouldn't blindly follow an "Unlawful" order, that being the violation of a US Citizens Constitutional Rights, as defined in our Constitution, it's Amendments and our Bill of Rights. Nor would a majority of our Armed Forces.

            The individual freedoms we Americans enjoy, as defined in the above documents and what they stand for, may seem worthless to you, but not to most Americans. Our Founding Fathers pledged everything they owned, including their lives to establish the foundation on which this country was built, can I give any less?

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Peace Time Martial Law?

              Conspiracy theories abound for every major event you can think of. Tees are the same folks that believe in Sasquatch, the Loch Ness monster, aliens, ghosts and many other such nonsensical things.
              sigpic

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              • #37
                Re: Peace Time Martial Law?

                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                Conspiracy theories abound for every major event you can think of. Tees are the same folks that believe in Sasquatch, the Loch Ness monster, aliens, ghosts and many other such nonsensical things.
                NHM, "nonsensical"? There have been countless eye witness accounts, and scientific studies which give more creedence to those things than your silly theory of evolution! Heck there's even a tv program "Finding Bigfoot", and you know they can't put things on tv that aren't true.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Peace Time Martial Law?

                  I forgot skunk ape and the yeti.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Peace Time Martial Law?

                    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                    I forgot skunk ape and the yeti.
                    Real and real! I suppose you don't believe in vampires and werewolves? Amazing and you a man of science.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Peace Time Martial Law?

                      Werewolves, no. Vampires, yes. My ex wife is all the proof I need of blood sucking daemons from hell.
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Peace Time Martial Law?

                        Originally posted by johncameron View Post
                        cwsmith, I understand. Some people don't want to know the truth because it is contrary to their wold view. I cant argue with empirical evidence and the expertise of thousands of engineers.
                        Regardless, why did building seven fall when no plane hit it?

                        Although harder to prove, some believe Israel is behind it to spurn a war with Iran. It is a known fact the insurance policy was increased weeks before the trade centers collapse. A huge lobbyist group AIPEC controls much of USA domestic and foreign policy. Zionists control more than you think.

                        John,

                        Look you are right, some people can't accept the truth.... and that is why there are conspiracy theories. Too many people think there is always a coverup, I guess it is a human failure to ALWAYS look for some other explanation. But, they not only don't accept the obvious, they don't accept the investigations of the government, independent research, or even good quality engineering research.... but they are wide-eyed and bushy-tailed when someone comes up with some OTHER explanation (read that as "conspiracy".)

                        But, let us look at 7 WTC.... First off, this structure, as well as both towers have been studied to an exhausting extent and the failures have been clearly stated (look it up on Wikipedia and elsewhere).

                        While the twin towers certainly looked like a so-called "controlled collapse"... what would you or anyone else expect it to look like? The aircraft hit some ten or so stories down from the very top (I'm not going to look that up). It has been well-explained that the heat from a fully-fueled jetliner, along with the penetration of the craft, would have so severely caused structure failure on that floor, as to buckle what was left of the supporting structure. The structural failure on that one floor would have thus caused the weight of all those upper floors to “pancake”/collapse that floor and the shear mass of that impact would have driven downward, pancaking all the floors beneath it.

                        Alternatively, if the impact of the jet or the explosion of the jet had been of such mass, then it might have driven the top of the building over to the side and lower floors might have escaped to some degree. BUT, that mass and impact force simply wasn't there... instead, the mass of the jet was only such as to penetrate the floor and it was the fire that added to the calamity, causing the steel to loose it's temper and strength and thus fold-up, so to speak. The structure of the WTC is largely co-dependant on all structural members and as such it is the biggest percentage of this structure that maintains the integrity of the building. While this interdependance provides flexible strength, a failure of any large percent (such as joint impact and thermal weakening) will render the collapse to the structure... and all of the structure.

                        The entire weight/mass of those upper floors would have then dropped straight down and the force of such impact would have telegraphed to subsequent floors in an overwhelming, and ever-growing manner.... all the way into the subbasement/foundation structure.

                        One must understand that the design of the WTC was significantly different than previous "skyscrapers" in that it relied heavily on the inter-dependance of it's exterior structure as well as it's internal structural members, thus providing a large degree of vertical flexibility because of the forces exerted on a structure of such height. To the degree that the building itself must have enough elasticity to sway. If the building was more rigid it may have held up better under such downward force... but would have been subject to other failure-causing stresses too.

                        At the time of the event, I was still working. My company built very large, often custom engineered products of the petro-chem business. Much of our stuff goes on oil platforms and in refineries, and elsewhere. While not related to structures like the WTC, we do employ hundreds of mechanical, metallurgical, structural, and other engineers. Just a few feet from my office was our Corporate Metallurgical laboratory and I was on a “first-name” basis with that engineering staff. The lab was such that they even employed an electron microscope in they vast arsenal of equipment. So, these guys were about as good as you can get in the business and the managing director was reputed as being one of the finest metallurgical engineers in the country.

                        We shared a lot of space together and for those of us less educated, it was always a good group of guys to discuss “events” with. One learns a lot that way, and, like the Challenger disaster, the 911 and the WTC was much discussed. None of these guys saw any mystery to the collapse. Especially considering the structural design and the parameters of the attack.

                        With regard to 7 WTC, you have to remember too that though there was no attack specific to that building, all of this plaza was built on a shared structure that went down a few floors below ground. The collapse of such weight and the possible mushrooming of this underground foundation/support system could well have been such that the smaller building simply lost all of its structural foundations, to the point where it weight would have reduced it to rubble. Also, one must remember that debris was falling on it from the higher structures, and perhaps in combination with loss of it's foundations, the building came down.

                        But of course I am no engineer, I only write and illustrate for engineers. I do know that structures of this mass are subject to all kinds of stresses; and failure, in the face of such disasters can be devastating.

                        But let's forget all of that for just a moment... and simply ask yourself, “If the two airplanes could have brought down the twin towers, then what possibly could have been the motive of anyone in taking the moment to also bring down the little building? And, if it were for some “cause”... wouldn't taking down the towers satisfied that, or even taking down one tower would have given enough reason?

                        And if only the the towers were done by terrorists, then how would any other force have timed the separate destruction of the 7 WTC building?

                        Bottom line, is unless you have an absolutely unbridled imagination, “conspiracy” doesn't make a lot of sense. There's no logical conclusion to be reached outside of the actual terrorist attack most of us have witnessed.


                        CWS
                        Last edited by CWSmith; 02-11-2013, 04:28 PM.

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