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  • If any of you ever wondered how Rome fell...

    This is one of the leading indicators:

    http://militaryadvantage.military.co...2887570&rank=2

    Rome stopped educating their soldiers. You have to understand, Roman soldiers were really warlords in a way. In order to build the infrastructure needed to support thier Army, and extend Rome's reach, feats in Engineering were required, such as roads, water, and forges. When such education programs were stopped, fewer and fewer in the more remote locations had the knowledge and tools, thus disrepair and neglect began to plague the ground forces.

    Today, I fear the same, first the Marines, then the Army, and now the Coast Guard. You know it is bad when the Air Force is even considering similar steps. I weep for the future of the G.I. Bill. Yet, we have nuclear carriers to be built, and let's not forget the F-35, and all the manufacturing support it will require to maintain, requires someone with a brain to work on it.

    I am wholely aware that these tuition kickers are only a small part towards the cost of education. However, every little bit helps. Personally, I believe to get the most effective use of such programs, have the service members sign a statement of understanding that declares certain stressed careers related to the subject entered awards federal loan forgiveness. Much like an employment contract, but still in the military. We have similar loan repayment programs already, but at least this way provides awareness of federal military positions, and gives a possibility of employment at the end of a degree program.
    Last edited by tailgunner; 03-11-2013, 06:19 PM.

  • #2
    Re: If any of you ever wondered how Rome fell...

    About 15 years ago I applied to enlist in the USAF. I went to the recruiter, took the test. There was lots of advanced math and science on it. The results were tallied and I received a perfect score. The recruiter was all pumped and we started the paperwork for Officer's school and an immediate jump past 1 level of rank.

    Then he said - "I'm sorry, your debt load is too high."

    Since then, I've had little respect for military brass and their paperwork.
    ~~

    ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

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    • #3
      Re: If any of you ever wondered how Rome fell...

      No Rome fell because it exstended its fronties to far went into lands it couldn`t control and in the end lost control and that is what is happening to the US it has extended itself to far and with its 16 trillion dollar debt will have to pull back and cut its millitary to the core or face what the Romans faced in 450 AD

      Tony

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      • #4
        Re: If any of you ever wondered how Rome fell...

        There are lots of reasons for the failure of the Roman Empire. I suppose that "education" might be one of them, but not so much for the actual "education" of the typical legionaire. About the only education that mattered with the soldier, was his skills within the particular legion. Upper levels of the command structure became much more political over the decades and centuries. "Failure", pretty much came from the corruption of government in Rome as they calmored for more and more riches, and sacrifised support for the distant regions, leaving many of them to fend for themselves. Such political, self-centered focus reached a point where not only were the distant legions neglected, but that there was no trust even within the Roman Senate... and such infighting led to assasinations, and corruption beyond imagination. Less was thought of the "citizen" and more and more, it was the rich that the state existed for, and so the central command of the Roman army focused it's support. (A lot like what we are beginning to see here... Armies that go to war for corporate interests and a 1% that drives the politics and most everything else.)

        True too, is that the Romans were far too extended, but that is simply because the state stopped supporting them, and eventually the people in the occupied lands became educated in warfare to a point where they were willing to take on the Roman occupiers. This however is no different throughout history... it happened to Alexander the Great, to the Mongols, to the Romans, and in late history, even the British.

        Regarding the comments about our services and especially Plumber Punky. Hey, I know where you're coming from. When I was 14 I joined Civil Air Patrol (US Air Force civilian auxiliary). My particular squadron was priviledged in that it's chief advisor was the "ranking" Army officer in our area (a full-colonel), veteran of WWII, on Eisenhower's planning staff and third wave at Normandy. We were Hq'd in the local Armory and in my 11 years there, we were closely involved with all the NG and Reserve units in our area.

        In any case, I progressed to a Cadet Officer (2nd Lt) by 16, became a certified Emergency Services Team leader by 17 and received my "Proficiency Certificate". That summer I spent at Griffiss AFB, where I was one of eight "Honor Cadets", out of roughly 600 attending that school. I attempted to enlist in September, taking top scores on my AQE, and also passed the exam to qualify for the Academy Prep School that was near Albuquerque, NM (I don't remember the AFB, but think it was McDill ?) During my teen years with CAP, I had taken and passed several ECI courses through the "War College", was a qualified radio operator, participated in three AF-supported Winter Survival Schools near Plattsburg AFB, the last of which I was a section leader. I had also taken some flight courses, including observation and navigation. BUT, because I only weighed 117, I was rejected!

        After that, I tried to enlist three other times, and volunteered for the draft twice... all to no avail. So much for trying to serve! I changed to "Senior" status in "the patrol" until after I got married and became a CWO4; and I also had joined the NY Guard (TSgt) and received some training with the local NG and Reserve units. About a month or so after I got married, I received my draft notice! Vietnam was hot and they happily told me that I'd make a great FAC pilot. Instead of going to Syracuse, they sent me to a local doctor for a "weigh-in"... and Thank God, he handed me a "Rejection"... with a "have a great life!". At the time I had mixed emotions about that, still wanting to go, but also wanting to stay because I was in love with my new wife. These many decades later, I am eternally grateful. FAC's didn't have a particularly long life, I've been told.

        So while I had several years of disappointment, and some anger to go with it, I do have nothing but great respect for the services and especially all those who served. Not sure how I might have made out or even if I would have made it out... one of the regrets and wonders one might have.

        One of the things that I do know, is that young people owe it to themselves and certainly to their country to be the best that they can. To learn as much and to be as "useful" as possible. We all can't serve in our military, but we can and should be able to have "skills" that make us valuable in as many appications and situations as possible.

        CWS
        Last edited by CWSmith; 03-12-2013, 07:29 PM.

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        • #5
          Re: If any of you ever wondered how Rome fell...

          I'm pretty sure it was because of the nation divide concerning plungers and toilet augers.

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          • #6
            Re: If any of you ever wondered how Rome fell...

            I think they spent so much time in the Senate arguing about Flat Rate vice T&M that they lost sight of their true goals.
            ---------------
            Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
            ---------------
            “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
            ---------
            "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
            ---------
            sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

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            • #7
              Re: If any of you ever wondered how Rome fell...

              Well, it finally happened, the Air Force was next in line to cut tuition assistance.
              Air Force Suspends Tuition Assistance | Military.com

              I have four more years until I get my 20 years. I was really looking forward putting my tools down to attempt another shot at a 4 year degree once I separate, through support from the G.I. Bill and tuition assistance. Though I fear the VA will screw me since I used up much of it just prior to 9-11. (The old $159 a month program). Christ, if I had known education benefits were on the chopping block back in 2006, I would have let my apprenticeship lapse halfway. But no, this is my reward for demonstrating dilligence: While a license is earned, at the price of having greater opportunities to self-improve yanked out of reach yet again.

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              • #8
                Re: If any of you ever wondered how Rome fell...

                Originally posted by rofl View Post
                I'm pretty sure it was because of the nation divide concerning plungers and toilet augers.
                //////////////////rofl, You know it was the augers who got in deep and pulled the plug!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: If any of you ever wondered how Rome fell...

                  Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
                  Well, it finally happened, the Air Force was next in line to cut tuition assistance.
                  Air Force Suspends Tuition Assistance | Military.com

                  I have four more years until I get my 20 years. I was really looking forward putting my tools down to attempt another shot at a 4 year degree once I separate, through support from the G.I. Bill and tuition assistance. Though I fear the VA will screw me since I used up much of it just prior to 9-11. (The old $159 a month program). Christ, if I had known education benefits were on the chopping block back in 2006, I would have let my apprenticeship lapse halfway. But no, this is my reward for demonstrating dilligence: While a license is earned, at the price of having greater opportunities to self-improve yanked out of reach yet again.

                  ...snip...
                  Military officials have encouraged service members to use their GI Bill benefits to continue their educations while still on active duty.
                  "Soldiers can continue to access their GI Bill benefits, if applicable (either the Montgomery GI Bill or the Post 9/11 GI Bill), or use another funding sources (i.e. grants, scholarships, or Army National Guard Soldiers using state Tuition Assistance)," the Army wrote in a statement to soldiers when officials suspended the program.
                  Using GI Bill benefits during active duty does not mean servicemembers will lose that benefit once they leave the service and the 15-year time limit for using the benefit does not start counting against servicemembers until they leave active duty. However, any GI Bill benefits used while on active duty will reduce the amount of benefits available for use after separation from the military.
                  ---------------
                  Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                  ---------------
                  “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                  ---------
                  "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                  ---------
                  sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: If any of you ever wondered how Rome fell...

                    One of the "shames" of our country, I believe, is how fast benefits to the military seem to fade away after the conflicts. We seem to want our young men and women to open heartedly sacrifice themselves to our causes; but once they do so, we then get all concerned about the budget and how much these promises are costing us.

                    It seems that every conflict is followed by this kind of thing in one way or another. I've always found it absurd that the wars are entered so ernestly by our politicians, and in a war's aftermath, these characters become ever so mindful of the budgetary debt, but not the debt we owe to those who have served.

                    CWS

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                    • #11
                      Re: If any of you ever wondered how Rome fell...

                      CWS, I agree with your post. I believe that it is a shame both political parties have added to our massive national debt, thus leading to our present and future cuts in spending and programs. I can only see things getting worse for those on active duty and for those returning to civilian life. The job market is not good which has lead to a lot of service men and women serving tour after tour.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: If any of you ever wondered how Rome fell...

                        Why, oh why does this not invoke confidence?

                        Senator Threatens to 'Fence Off' VA Funding | Military.com

                        Great, now the VA is inside the pressure cooker. There goes my G.I. Bill. While, yes, the VA having the squeeze put on them from time to time is a long term good thing, it's those of us that attempt to benefit from thier services that suffer the most.
                        I swear, I'm at a point where all it takes is one bad day to purposely pull a stunt at work where my employer will have no choice but to lay me off, become another faceless unemployed veteren, then finally collect a monthly check via the treasury. At least THEN I would gain the free time to enjoy the finer things in life, like meet people for once. I sure as hell can't start my own business, can't afford a full blown real education, and cannot yet be my Plan C as a landlord through the VA so I only have to rent out to other veterens due to not having the funds to purchase a property to fix up myself!

                        Yes folks, there is a provision in the Section 8 program where, as a veteren myself, I can rent out a property to only other veterens. I'll tell you what, I'll never be a slumlord, I can fix things myself.
                        Last edited by tailgunner; 03-13-2013, 10:43 PM.

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