Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

I Love The People Here!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Re: I Love The People Here!

    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
    Changes are made at a minimum annually at National, State and Local levels. The trades of Plumbing and Architecture has changed considerably in the last 50-years. The fact that you don't see it happening does not mean that it is not happening. If I had to rate the importance of being able to join pipes as related to the trade of Plumbing it is less that 2%.

    Mark
    But I'm still waiting to understand why someone would need 8000 hours of training to undertake work on their home. In your estimation can you give some examples of things that a DIYer/HO cannot/will not be able to perform without this level of training. Remember for the purpose of this discussion we are not talking about people working on large commercial projects etc.

    I think you misunderstood the term "architecture" - in this case I was referring to the system architecture of plumbing in a home. Can you tell me in terms of how it fundamentally works has anything changed in the last 50 years and if so what. I'm contrasting that your CAD example where I explained some possible reasons why things may have got more complex.

    With plumbing can you give some examples why things have remained static or got more complex rather than easier in the context of a regular home?

    Comment


    • Re: I Love The People Here!

      Originally posted by blue_can View Post
      But I'm still waiting to understand why someone would need 8000 hours of training to undertake work on their home. In your estimation can you give some examples of things that a DIYer/HO cannot/will not be able to perform without this level of training. Remember for the purpose of this discussion we are not talking about people working on large commercial projects etc.

      I think you misunderstood the term "architecture" - in this case I was referring to the system architecture of plumbing in a home. Can you tell me in terms of how it fundamentally works has anything changed in the last 50 years and if so what. I'm contrasting that your CAD example where I explained some possible reasons why things may have got more complex.

      With plumbing can you give some examples why things have remained static or got more complex rather than easier in the context of a regular home?


      You seem to want to simplify things now. My replies have been addressing your comments regarding the possible needfor less training. You must be assuming an apprentices training stops at singlefamily residential plumbing. That is only a very small part of what anapprentice learns in schooling and training.

      Mark
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

      Comment


      • Re: I Love The People Here!

        Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
        You seem to want to simplify things now. My replies have been addressing your comments regarding the possible needfor less training. You must be assuming an apprentices training stops at singlefamily residential plumbing. That is only a very small part of what anapprentice learns in schooling and training.

        Mark
        Well actually there are two different thing here both have not been answered.

        If you compare today to maybe 50 years ago why would you need not need less hand-on training if certain things like pipe joining have got easier and thus requiring less skill. That's one question.

        Second question is really what is related to what NHM has been saying - according to him to do anything other than basic things in your home you need 600 hours of class. I'm not seeing that also. It's not as simple as that.

        Comment


        • Re: I Love The People Here!

          Holy crap it's kind of ironic that this thread (I Love The People Here!) went to pot, see what you started


          Last edited by AssTyme; 03-30-2013, 03:33 PM.

          Comment


          • Re: I Love The People Here!

            Originally posted by blue_can View Post
            Well actually there are two different thing here both have not been answered.

            If you compare today to maybe 50 years ago why would you need not need less hand-on training if certain things like pipe joining have got easier and thus requiring less skill. That's one question.

            Second question is really what is related to what NHM has been saying - according to him to do anything other than basic things in your home you need 600 hours of class. I'm not seeing that also. It's not as simple as that.

            For fun, take a look at the requirements to get a masters degree in plumbing. Most master plumbers know most of the same stuff except for the academic core classes. Sure, gluing PVC, hacking pex etc is a whole lot easier than leading cast iron but, we still lead cast iron on occasion and plumbers still need to know how to thread pipe and solder copper. Those skills must still be taught and learned.
            sigpic

            Comment


            • Re: I Love The People Here!

              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
              When things go wrong experience is everything. I have never seen anything impressive done by a homeowner. I have seen things done the right way but the right way isn't impressive. However I would venture to say that close to 90% of what I have seen done by homeowners is savage at best and while neatness doesn't count, it is the difference between a professional and a hack. Leading someone stpe by step through a project is little more than teaching a chimpanzee how to take something mechanical apart. They may get it right but they don't know why and if you throw something in to the project that they have no experience with, they are stopped dead in their tracks. There is a reason why apprentices do 4 years and 600 hours of classroom time. Its to learn the theory behind the practice. Any idiot with a pex tool and cutter can string plastic all over the basement. Its not the work, its the knowledge and experience however, my rant will make very little difference among the weekend warrior crowd. They are too stubborn and cheap to listen to reason. Mostly what I hope my diatribe will do is open the eyes of licensed professionals in all trades to the pitfalls and sheer stupidity of giving their knowledge and trade away for free. Its not helping anybody except the homowner and though he may profusely thank you and stroke your ego in print, thats all you are ever going to get from him. Especially if he's a thousand or more miles away.
              Originally posted by blue_can View Post
              Well actually there are two different thing here both have not been answered.

              If you compare today to maybe 50 years ago why would you need not need less hand-on training if certain things like pipe joining have got easier and thus requiring less skill. That's one question.

              Second question is really what is related to what NHM has been saying - according to him to do anything other than basic things in your home you need 600 hours of class. I'm not seeing that also. It's not as simple as that.
              Again you are putting too much emphasis on pipe joining in residential plumbing. It is such a small part of the training required.

              1. In the last 50-years we have seen changes related to sizing, venting, fire safeing, earthquake provisions, energy conservation, Clean Water Act, backflow protection, thermal expansion prevention, overflow requirements, materials, tankless water heaters, improved electronic leak locating and pipe location, sewer cameras, water conserving fixtures, T&P termination and the list just continues and continues.

              2. You are misrepresenting what nhmaster posted.

              Mark
              Last edited by ToUtahNow; 03-30-2013, 04:09 PM.
              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

              Comment


              • Re: I Love The People Here!

                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                For fun, take a look at the requirements to get a masters degree in plumbing. Most master plumbers know most of the same stuff except for the academic core classes. Sure, gluing PVC, hacking pex etc is a whole lot easier than leading cast iron but, we still lead cast iron on occasion and plumbers still need to know how to thread pipe and solder copper. Those skills must still be taught and learned.

                Certainly, there's a lot more to plumbing that fitting pipe together.... MY Dad taught me to lead cast iron sewer pipe (packing "rope" and pouring hot lead), threading iron pipe, and making good solder joints when I was just 15 or 16... I never had a solder connection leak either! BUT, that in no way makes me a plumber or as my DAD, might have said, "Not even a pimple on a plumber's @ss!". Like many things, there may be some tasks that you can do and do well, but it's the overall knowledge, training, and experience that makes one the expert.

                There's just so much to plumbing, and it seems to change a lot too. That's why a homeowner really needs to go to a professional, licensed for the business at hand. For example, we had our bathroom in the last house redone several years ago. The Contractor did the job, but wasn't a licensed plumber. He!! he seemed to know what he and his partner was doing, but what a mess they created. The redid all the plumbing in the 2nd floor bathroom, and everything seemed to work well. We had a half-bath on the first floor, off the kitchen, which we rarely ever used and basically kept that door closed. Over that weekend, I went in there to discover that the toilet was over-flowed, from everything that was 'flushed' from the new bathroom!!!!

                What a helluva mess... obviously something went wrong! So while everything might look right, and mechanically went together well upstairs, these guys didn't know something that probably was pretty basic. I myself, don't have a clue....but then I'm not in that business and much prefer to stay the heck away from even the easiest of plumbing tasks. LESSON-LEARNED... go with professionals who know the ends and outs and have proven it to get their license!

                CWS
                Last edited by CWSmith; 03-30-2013, 04:12 PM.

                Comment


                • Re: I Love The People Here!

                  Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                  When things go wrong experience is everything. I have never seen anything impressive done by a homeowner. I have seen things done the right way but the right way isn't impressive. However I would venture to say that close to 90% of what I have seen done by homeowners is savage at best and while neatness doesn't count, it is the difference between a professional and a hack. Leading someone stpe by step through a project is little more than teaching a chimpanzee how to take something mechanical apart. They may get it right but they don't know why and if you throw something in to the project that they have no experience with, they are stopped dead in their tracks. There is a reason why apprentices do 4 years and 600 hours of classroom time. Its to learn the theory behind the practice. Any idiot with a pex tool and cutter can string plastic all over the basement. Its not the work, its the knowledge and experience however, my rant will make very little difference among the weekend warrior crowd. They are too stubborn and cheap to listen to reason. Mostly what I hope my diatribe will do is open the eyes of licensed professionals in all trades to the pitfalls and sheer stupidity of giving their knowledge and trade away for free. Its not helping anybody except the homowner and though he may profusely thank you and stroke your ego in print, thats all you are ever going to get from him. Especially if he's a thousand or more miles away.

                  While I can understand where you are coming from this is an open forum where people can exchange information & ideas for free. It is your choice whether you choose to share your knowledge or not. Not every DIYer is too cheap to hire a real professional some simply can't afford too & have to try to repair their problem themselves & some just enjoy doing it. I come here because of my desire to learn. There is only so much you can learn working with the same people everyday. If you are truly interested increasing your knowledge you must seek out new sources. I associate with a group of professionals in the trades & we exchange information all the time for free & if we don't have an answer we will contact someone who does. Not everything we do in life should be based on monetary gain. You complain out DIYer's taking money from you yet you teach people to be your competition . You are curating tomorrows professionals & hacks (simply by the law of probability). How many 6-month apprentence have you known that thought they were a master ?

                  How do you feel about professionals giving away their time for free? I have a friend who is a retired master plumber with over 50 yrs. exp. who recently asked me to pick up a pressure tank & some misc. supplies for him, because he does not have a vehicle the tank would fit in. He is in a wheelchair, so he was going to supervise his accountant son. I picked up & installed the tank for free. 30 yrs. ago he show me how to put one in for free. It gave me great pleasure & sadness to help him out. The pleasure was helping someone truly in need. He is on a limited income & can't afford to pay for repairs on his home. The sadness was knowing how this proud man felt about receiving help. I'm not a plumber, but none of his plumber buddies were available to help him out. The son was there to help dad out. He picked up the trash & took us out to dinner when I was done. Sometimes what you give away for free today comes back to pay you later.

                  Comment


                  • Re: I Love The People Here!

                    Now that I read more of this thread threre are plenty of things that have not been answered! I'd like some concrete answers about everything and be forewarned, nothing you say will be satisfactory! You guys are just wasting my precious time, I could actually be out there learning for myself! Nah, I'll just hang out here and waste your time asking why a expert knows more than a diy'er, or why a licensed expert has the nerve to refuse in helping a diy'er possibly screw up a job and hurt himself and others. NHM and other skilled tradesmen, remember, you did not earn those licenses, you did not work for them, "We' gave them to you!!! So you have to tell us anything we ask

                    Comment


                    • Re: I Love The People Here!

                      Post #7 is where this thread went down hill

                      Comment


                      • Re: I Love The People Here!

                        Originally posted by Flux View Post
                        Post #7 is where this thread went down hill
                        It may have gone down hill, but at least everyone has been civil & respectful of others opinions. 15 pages of people disagreeing & the thread has not been closed yet.

                        Comment


                        • Re: I Love The People Here!

                          Originally posted by MR.FUDD View Post
                          It may have gone down hill, but at least everyone has been civil & respectful of others opinions. 15 pages of people disagreeing & the thread has not been closed yet.
                          The posts may be civil but I don't agree that there is a lot of respect for other's opinions. NHM, has given what I feel are reasonable and legitimate reasons why he does not want to give out information and help diy'ers. Instead of respecting his opinion, there has been an unending challenge and some comments that I feel are disrespectful. Did you read the one where he was accused of "hoarding" information? He chooses as in his choice, his opinion to not share, and instead of agreeing to disagree, the insults begin. Post #7 is when the thread should have been locked because it was the beginning of the end of civility. Demanding absolute proof? Take a hike if you can't accept the opinion or right to choose by another member!

                          Comment


                          • Re: I Love The People Here!

                            There are plenty of ways to insult without calling names and it's going both ways,

                            Comment


                            • Re: I Love The People Here!

                              I may be wrong here, but most physical operations are reasonably easy to lean, sodering a pipe, gluing a pipe, or compression a ring on pex,

                              but I have seen many a post that some one has put a drawing or a few pictures of there basement and say is this the way to run the pipes, and are they sized properly,
                              how many times has some one posted a picture of some work they may be very proud of and only to be pointed out many many points of improper fitting, improper couplings, and the venting is not according to even the least of the codes,

                              the time and experience that it takes to be able to lay out and properly design a system, and to implement the procedures, is the area where the long study,

                              when I first started to over haul engines, (yes I had a book), and it was helpful, but over the years, experience has taught me how much is to much wear, even how to measure, and the so called tricks, (things you learn with experience) to make the diagnose and the repair easer,
                              (I think most any one who can turn a wrench could with guidance reassemble an engine), but to put the claim that he is an engine re builder would be a big leap,

                              I think the same holds for most any trade or skill, many just starting out, will rank them selves high on the scale of accomplishment, but a seasoned person knows they so green that they nearly need help with the very basics, but if that person keeps going in the skill or trade, they many times learn that there is much, so much, more than what first meets the eye,
                              yes some are naturally talented and do better than there counter part, but still to learn and to really be a master of some thing takes thousands of hours of time,

                              my kids were into horses, when they were in high school, they were very good with the animals, I would meet some young person that may be had been on a trail ride and they thought they were ranking 8 or 9 on there riding ability, were some one who had been with horses for most of there life and knew how to handle and train them and work with them, may only rank them selfs as 5 or a 6, what was the difference, the young person thought they accomplished a lot in that 2hr dud ranch ride, but the wrangler knew he has a life time of learning ahead of him, thus the lower self ranking,

                              I can glue pipe, and solder and pour lead, but I am not a plumber, I can do some plumbing, and most likely pass inspections on most projects, but I also know that I do not want to try to lay out the system for a large building or a commercial building, (my guess is I could do it, but it would take a lot of study and time, to know I was doing it correctly), but I would not want to be responsible for the end result,
                              even when I had a license for the wast water treatment and water treatment plants, I did not have the experience to handle any real problems, even tho I fixed many many problems with the plant, (mostly because when I got there the plant was basically non operational), but that was a mechanical issues, chlorine system was inoperable, inoperative pumps, trickle filter broke down, the dousing siphon out of order, the imhof tank was or had not be drained in years, and the settling tanks were scummed over to a depth of 3 plus feet, when I left the school the system was working at nearly top efficiency, and we passed all inspections,
                              (and the above condition was allowed by a previous, incensed operator),

                              the thing is there are licensed and true masters out there, and there are licensed, bums as well,

                              I my self do not have a very high opinion of the licensing system, for various reasons,

                              as most all of it comes to the integrate of the person,

                              but to know a trade or a skill, and a system, it take time and experience, and the more experienced one is most of the time the better they are at some task,
                              Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                              attributed to Samuel Johnson
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                              Comment


                              • Re: I Love The People Here!

                                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                                Again you are putting too much emphasis on pipe joining in residential plumbing. It is such a small part of the training required.

                                1. In the last 50-years we have seen changes related to sizing, venting, fire safeing, earthquake provisions, energy conservation, Clean Water Act, backflow protection, thermal expansion prevention, overflow requirements, materials, tankless water heaters, improved electronic leak locating and pipe location, sewer cameras, water conserving fixtures, T&P termination and the list just continues and continues.

                                2. You are misrepresenting what nhmaster posted.

                                Mark
                                1 is a fair point although I would argue some of those in the list are still within the capability of a DIYer and they can easily pickup what is required as needed. For example I have installed gas tankless in my home, fully understand how they work, resized the gas line, took it through to inspection and never had a problem with in over 10 years. I can understand that the professional plumber will definitely need to have a boarder scope but really I question needing 8000 hours of hand-on for everything in that list.

                                2. I don't believe I misquoted NHM if you go back and read through the threads what i said I believe what he is promoting.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X