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  • Re: I Love The People Here!

    Originally posted by MR.FUDD View Post
    While I can understand where you are coming from this is an open forum where people can exchange information & ideas for free. It is your choice whether you choose to share your knowledge or not. Not every DIYer is too cheap to hire a real professional some simply can't afford too & have to try to repair their problem themselves & some just enjoy doing it. I come here because of my desire to learn. There is only so much you can learn working with the same people everyday. If you are truly interested increasing your knowledge you must seek out new sources. I associate with a group of professionals in the trades & we exchange information all the time for free & if we don't have an answer we will contact someone who does. Not everything we do in life should be based on monetary gain. You complain out DIYer's taking money from you yet you teach people to be your competition . You are curating tomorrows professionals & hacks (simply by the law of probability). How many 6-month apprentence have you known that thought they were a master ?

    How do you feel about professionals giving away their time for free? I have a friend who is a retired master plumber with over 50 yrs. exp. who recently asked me to pick up a pressure tank & some misc. supplies for him, because he does not have a vehicle the tank would fit in. He is in a wheelchair, so he was going to supervise his accountant son. I picked up & installed the tank for free. 30 yrs. ago he show me how to put one in for free. It gave me great pleasure & sadness to help him out. The pleasure was helping someone truly in need. He is on a limited income & can't afford to pay for repairs on his home. The sadness was knowing how this proud man felt about receiving help. I'm not a plumber, but none of his plumber buddies were available to help him out. The son was there to help dad out. He picked up the trash & took us out to dinner when I was done. Sometimes what you give away for free today comes back to pay you later.
    In my case I mainly do it because I enjoy it - money has never been the issue for me.

    Comment


    • Re: I Love The People Here!

      Originally posted by blue_can View Post
      1 is a fair point although I would argue some of those in the list are still within the capability of a DIYer and they can easily pickup what is required as needed. For example I have installed gas tankless in my home, fully understand how they work, resized the gas line, took it through to inspection and never had a problem with in over 10 years. I can understand that the professional plumber will definitely need to have a boarder scope but really I question needing 8000 hours of hand-on for everything in that list.

      2. I don't believe I misquoted NHM if you go back and read through the threads what i said I believe what he is promoting.
      8,000 hrs. is only 4 years. How many hrs. did it take you to learn & complete the tankless installation? To become efficient & effective at something you need to do it multiple times. Obtaining a license not only tells a customer , but it also tells an employer about an job applicants abilities. Employers need employees who are efficient & effective in preforming the duties assigned to them. One problem I have with inspectors is in some of the stuff I do I need a certificate saying I know how to do it & completed so many hrs. on the job, but the inspector does not have to meet those same requirements & it shows when they don't. Blue Can I believe you have the mental ability to learn anything you want to, but not everyone is like that. While 8,000 hrs. might be the required hrs. for some it might take 16,000 hrs. & some just never get it.

      Comment


      • Re: I Love The People Here!

        Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
        There is a reason why apprentices do 4 years and 600 hours of classroom time. Its to learn the theory behind the practice.
        Originally posted by blue_can View Post

        I'm not sure where you keep getting this 600 hours from. Depending on individual ability some may take 600, some more, some less. I'm not sure where this magic number comes from. Also remember that an HO needs to have sufficient skill just to pull of their own project so the 600 number does not really apply here.
        Originally posted by blue_can View Post
        2. I don't believe I misquoted NHM if you go back and read through the threads what i said I believe what he is promoting.
        nhmaster is talking about why an apprentice sits through 600-hours of instructions. You are talking about homeoner's having sufficient knowledge to complete their project. While a homeowner having sufficient knowledge to complete his project may or may affect his project, it has little to do with why an apprentice sits through 600-hours of schooling.

        I would remind you again, that 600-hours of schooling is backed with 8,000 hours of documented work experience.

        Mark
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

        Comment


        • Re: I Love The People Here!

          Originally posted by MR.FUDD View Post
          8,000 hrs. is only 4 years. How many hrs. did it take you to learn & complete the tankless installation? To become efficient & effective at something you need to do it multiple times. Obtaining a license not only tells a customer , but it also tells an employer about an job applicants abilities. Employers need employees who are efficient & effective in preforming the duties assigned to them. One problem I have with inspectors is in some of the stuff I do I need a certificate saying I know how to do it & completed so many hrs. on the job, but the inspector does not have to meet those same requirements & it shows when they don't. Blue Can I believe you have the mental ability to learn anything you want to, but not everyone is like that. While 8,000 hrs. might be the required hrs. for some it might take 16,000 hrs. & some just never get it.
          I cannot recall exactly since it was a while back but probably around 1/2 hour to an hour to understand how they work and how to install. About another hour or two to perform gas flow calcs and make sure the gas line was correctly sized and to take static gas pressure measurements to plug into the flow calculations. I happen to own the latest gas code book and handbook so those were used as a reference.

          As far as the actual install possibly 2 days or so - of course some of it had nothing to do with plumbing - cutting the stucco for the vent, patching up the drywall, custom fabbing metal brackets to hold the tankless in place etc.

          I don't think really time taken to do a job is the main concern - obviously someone will get faster each time they do something. But the main thing is to do the job correctly and safely, get it inspected, possibly show the project on a forum to get comments etc - all those are more important than the time taken to do a DIY job (obviously depends on how quick the person wants it of course).

          Comment


          • Re: I Love The People Here!

            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
            nhmaster is talking about why an apprentice sits through 600-hours of instructions. You are talking about homeoner's having sufficient knowledge to complete their project. While a homeowner having sufficient knowledge to complete his project may or may affect his project, it has little to do with why an apprentice sits through 600-hours of schooling.

            I would remind you again, that 600-hours of schooling is backed with 8,000 hours of documented work experience.

            Mark
            Maybe you should let nhm reply to the reasons he posted this but to me it is being implied that 600 hours of instruction is required to understand the theory and undertake pretty much what a DIY would be planning to do in their own home other than "minor" work as deemed by nhm. I'm pointing out that this is not the case and many capable DIYs can successfully understand the theory and undertake work in their own home and I have used myself as an example in some previous posts.

            Comment


            • Re: I Love The People Here!

              Blue can
              You are, at least I think you are, an exception to the rule. Why are you busting our chops over our blanket statements about the possible dangers related to HO attempts at construction projects?
              A certificate of completion does not necessarily equate to competence. Even after my apprentices complete their JATC training, I may or may not trust them to take on a project on their own. It depends on the individual, just like any other endeavor. The fact that I've carried they for 5 years shows my faith in them. My ability to judge proficiency (or lack of same) will determine when I throw them into the deep end of the pool.

              Comment


              • Re: I Love The People Here!

                Originally posted by Plumbus View Post
                Blue can
                You are, at least I think you are, an exception to the rule. Why are you busting our chops over our blanket statements about the possible dangers related to HO attempts at construction projects?
                A certificate of completion does not necessarily equate to competence. Even after my apprentices complete their JATC training, I may or may not trust them to take on a project on their own. It depends on the individual, just like any other endeavor. The fact that I've carried they for 5 years shows my faith in them. My ability to judge proficiency (or lack of same) will determine when I throw them into the deep end of the pool.


                Exactly, in some instances that piece of paper doesn't mean chit

                Comment


                • Re: I Love The People Here!

                  Originally posted by AssTyme View Post
                  Exactly, in some instances that piece of paper doesn't mean chit
                  So what you are saying is lets do away with apprenticeships and all forms training in all fields and if you think that you can do the job just do it don`t bother about check s balances she`ll be right that would suit you down to the ground wouldn`t it Asstyme as you haven`t done the hards yards and got the qualifications in the field of plumbing you are doing as others have

                  Tony

                  Comment


                  • Re: I Love The People Here!

                    Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                    I’m still not seeing your point exactly.

                    Regarding assessing who people are on the net is not easy. Here is an example which was my personal experience.

                    I have been a non-regular on this site – in other words I stop by from time to time but on occasions I have not really had the time or been busy with other things to post.

                    I stopped by some months ago and asked a question about cutting copper pipe and it was related to re-plumbing my bathroom. I was told that I was over my head etc and I should hire a licensed plumber. In any event as usual Plumber Rick stepped up and gave me a helpful answer. The bathroom was duly re-plumbed by me, the job was permitted and went through inspection and approval. I was complemented on the job by the inspector who is the boss of the inspectors and has been with our city for over 20 years (he was supervising an inspector who was new and was learning so they both came for the inspection). He was impressed with things like the extra and solid bracing for the pipes which generally is not done.

                    It is a major remodel and since then I have had 4 more inspections with 3 more to do including a fair bit of electrical work and re-wiring.

                    Point is I was deemed by many on here to be over my heads. They were completely incorrect.

                    So what you say about the specific thread you referenced may not reflect the poster’s circumstances. You could be right – we really don’t know. If you don’t want to help don’t get involved but I think it’s going a bit far to be getting upset that others are answering the questions and so forth.
                    By reading your essay I cannot understand on how you as a do-it-yourselfer can get a inspection without being licensed in the field you are working in it just shows your States don`t take health seriously where I live you first have to tell the appropriate authority what you are going to do and get approval before you can start and then inspections throughout the job and the first thing the authority will ask for is your license number and if you haven`t got one then it is all over and you will be asked some serious questions and just because you think that you are the greatest do-it-yourselfer in your own mind that won`t matter in bit in the authorities mind

                    Tony

                    Comment


                    • Re: I Love The People Here!

                      Originally posted by AssTyme View Post
                      Holy crap it's kind of ironic that this thread (I Love The People Here!) went to pot, see what you started

                      Differences of opinions don't equate to name calling. Only the subject matter has changed.


                      Originally posted by AFM View Post
                      By reading your essay I cannot understand on how you as a do-it-yourselfer can get a inspection without being licensed in the field you are working in it just shows your States don`t take health seriously where I live you first have to tell the appropriate authority what you are going to do and get approval before you can start and then inspections throughout the job and the first thing the authority will ask for is your license number and if you haven`t got one then it is all over and you will be asked some serious questions and just because you think that you are the greatest do-it-yourselfer in your own mind that won`t matter in bit in the authorities mind

                      Tony

                      Unfortunately here in the US many municipalities allow homeowners to do their own work. Though some now require the homeowner to purchase a temporary license and provide an affidavit for not needing certain types of insurance. These towns then have a record of the work and can provide the appropriate inspection.
                      ~~

                      ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

                      Comment


                      • Re: I Love The People Here!

                        Originally posted by AFM View Post
                        By reading your essay I cannot understand on how you as a do-it-yourselfer can get a inspection without being licensed in the field you are working in it just shows your States don`t take health seriously where I live you first have to tell the appropriate authority what you are going to do and get approval before you can start and then inspections throughout the job and the first thing the authority will ask for is your license number and if you haven`t got one then it is all over and you will be asked some serious questions and just because you think that you are the greatest do-it-yourselfer in your own mind that won`t matter in bit in the authorities mind

                        Tony
                        Owner builder permits are available in most areas but they are really trying to discourage them now. The property has to be your primary residence and limited to a duplex. I believe there is also a requirement in California, you do not sell the home for at least 4-years. My oldest daughter and her husband built a home in Utah as an owner builder. Some of the work was subbed out, some they did themselves and some they hired tradesman. They were required to provide Workers-Comp and pay Payroll Taxes on all of their employees. They also helped the subs they hired so they could have a part in the entire project.

                        Mark

                        § 7044. Property owner making own improvements
                        (a) This chapter does not apply to any of the following:
                        (1) An owner who builds or improves a structure on his or her property, provided that both of the following conditions are met:
                        (A) None of the improvements are intended or offered for sale.
                        (B) The property owner personally performs all of the work or any
                        work not performed by the owner is performed by the owner’s employees with wages as their sole compensation.
                        (2) An owner who builds or improves a structure on his or her property, provided that both of the following conditions are met: CHAPTER 12. CONTRACTORS LICENSE LAW 303
                        (A) The owner directly contracts with licensees who are duly licensed to contract for the work of the respective trades involved in
                        completing the project.
                        (B) For projects involving single-family residential structures, no
                        more than four of these structures are intended or offered for sale in a
                        calendar year. This subparagraph shall not apply if the owner contracts with a general contractor for the construction.
                        (3) A homeowner improving his or her principal place of residence
                        or appurtenances thereto, provided that all of the following conditions
                        exist:
                        (A) The work is performed prior to sale.
                        (B) The homeowner has actually resided in the residence for the 12
                        months prior to completion of the work.
                        (C) The homeowner has not availed himself or herself of the exemption in this paragraph on more than two structures more than once
                        during any three-year period.
                        (b) In all actions brought under this chapter, both of the following
                        shall apply:
                        (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), proof of the sale or offering
                        for sale of a structure by or for the owner-builder within one year after completion of the structure constitutes a rebuttable presumption
                        affecting the burden of proof that the structure was undertaken for
                        purposes of sale.
                        (2) Proof of the sale or offering for sale of five or more structures by
                        the owner-builder within one year after completion constitutes a conclusive presumption that the structures were undertaken for purposes of sale.
                        Last edited by ToUtahNow; 03-31-2013, 11:29 AM.
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • Re: I Love The People Here!

                          Originally posted by AFM View Post
                          So what you are saying is lets do away with apprenticeships and all forms training in all fields and if you think that you can do the job just do it don`t bother about check s balances she`ll be right that would suit you down to the ground wouldn`t it Asstyme as you haven`t done the hards yards and got the qualifications in the field of plumbing you are doing as others have

                          Tony
                          He is not required to have any training or license in Wisconsin. It's pretty much the same in California.

                          Mark
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                          Comment


                          • Re: I Love The People Here!

                            Bluecan, I respect your knowledge and accomplishments. Here is where I disagree:
                            [QUOTE=blue_can;396735]Just because you have not seen anything impressive plumbing done by a non-plumber it does not mean it does not exist. Your view is a very small view into a much larger world. You are simply exposed to the capabilities of the people that you have encountered.

                            We are in dwellings and commercial spaces every day, seeing hazardous conditions, as well as being at the forefront of when things go wrong. NH is in the larger world in regards to this debate.

                            So now you are extending your logic to all trades?
                            Plumbing, specifically. As Utah stated, we share the water supply and sewer treatment plant. And storm sewers, if separate. Bad plumbing can wreak havoc on the public.

                            I will being up a point which I mentioned earlier in the thread - newer technology makes it easier to plumb with less skill and training in the past. That would imply needing less training to do things that may have required more training in the past. I'm not sure where you keep getting this 600 hours from. Depending on individual ability some may take 600, some more, some less. I'm not sure where this magic number comes from. Also remember that an HO needs to have sufficient skill just to pull of their own project so the 600 number does not really apply here.

                            Nothing stays static and the world is always changing. Right now the the flow of information due to things like the Internet actively not posting on plumbing related topics to non-plumbers will make very little difference IMO.

                            You should need to recognize that due to greater information flow and changes in technology plumbing and for that matter other trades may need to re-evaluate the training and maybe recognize that as much training may not be required as in the past.

                            That statement strikes me as a little abrasive. You piped a bathroom and tankless heater, and other projects. As NH stated, the training is for when things go wrong, and YouTube has run out of videos.
                            There are new technologies in water purification, grey water systems, fire suppression, and heating. I converse with NH on other forums, so I can make the statement that he is more qualified that both of us put together on training requirements.
                            I am surprised you made the previous statement.

                            I am all for freedom to do what you want in your home. I have to draw the line at gas, potable water, and storm drainage which can endanger everyone.
                            You need to realize that there is a world of house flippers, and shady gc's responsible for real incidents.
                            Rick, these people are where I see most code violations here, not licensed plumbers.
                            Last edited by NYC LMP; 03-31-2013, 09:28 PM. Reason: Incompetence

                            Comment


                            • Re: I Love The People Here!

                              NYC - sure it's fine to disagree. Let me try to clarify the points you have raised.

                              Originally posted by NYC LMP View Post
                              Bluecan, I respect your knowledge and accomplishments. Here is where I disagree:

                              We are in dwellings and commercial spaces every day, seeing hazardous conditions, as well as being at the forefront of when things go wrong. NH is in the larger world in regards to this debate.
                              My point was actually not to try and say that this does not happen but also to draw attend to the fact that there are projects that are undertaken correctly and safely. After all you may have been called in to fix an incorrectly done project but would you have been called to look at a well executed project. No plumber in SD has seen what I've done. So that was my point.

                              Originally posted by NYC LMP View Post
                              So now you are extending your logic to all trades?
                              Plumbing, specifically. As Utah stated, we share the water supply and sewer treatment plant. And storm sewers, if separate. Bad plumbing can wreak havoc on the public.
                              Here the point I was making was NHM initially was saying the same thing as you and then later changed that to cover all trades after I had highlighted the dangers of DIYing other things. I don't really agree that plumbing is special over other things done incorrectly and being a danger.

                              Originally posted by NYC LMP View Post
                              I will being up a point which I mentioned earlier in the thread - newer technology makes it easier to plumb with less skill and training in the past. That would imply needing less training to do things that may have required more training in the past. I'm not sure where you keep getting this 600 hours from. Depending on individual ability some may take 600, some more, some less. I'm not sure where this magic number comes from. Also remember that an HO needs to have sufficient skill just to pull of their own project so the 600 number does not really apply here.

                              Nothing stays static and the world is always changing. Right now the the flow of information due to things like the Internet actively not posting on plumbing related topics to non-plumbers will make very little difference IMO.

                              You should need to recognize that due to greater information flow and changes in technology plumbing and for that matter other trades may need to re-evaluate the training and maybe recognize that as much training may not be required as in the past.

                              That statement strikes me as a little abrasive. You piped a bathroom and tankless heater, and other projects. As NH stated, the training is for when things go wrong, and YouTube has run out of videos.
                              There are new technologies in water purification, grey water systems, fire suppression, and heating. I converse with NH on other forums, so I can make the statement that he is more qualified that both of us put together on training requirements.
                              I am surprised you made the previous statement.

                              I am all for freedom to do what you want in your home. I have to draw the line at gas, potable water, and storm drainage which can endanger everyone.
                              You need to realize that there is a world of house flippers, and shady gc's responsible for real incidents.
                              Rick, these people are where I see most code violations here, not licensed plumbers.
                              I'm not clear what you are objecting to here. The main point is not to do with the amount of training a licensed plumber is required to have by the system but rather the implication that anything other than "minor" repairs requires this level of training which is what I believe NHM is promoting. I happen to disagree.

                              Also related is that NHM is concerned about safety and believes the best way to save people from themselves is to not divulge info on how to undertake the work they are asking the questions about. He has also indicated an influencing factor is that doing this takes work away from those who have made it their vocation this making it a financial issue. He is also suggesting other plumbers follow his example and even implies that people using PEX are hacks. You can go back and read through the whole thread to find some of these.

                              I happen to hold a different view - how about in the interest of safety educate someone who comes to ask a question on how to do the work/what is involved in doing the work. This will allow those people to evaluate and either figure out how to do the work safely or hire someone who has the knowledge to do the work. If they have good info it will also give them something to check the work by a licensed plumber. After all we know that there are licensed individuals out there who can screw up.

                              NHM is proposing putting total faith in the person doing the work and taking everything as having been done correctly without being able to inspect/check the person's work (or at least that is the implication of what he is proposing).

                              Comment


                              • Re: I Love The People Here!

                                [QUOTE=ToUtahNow;396827]Owner builder permits are available in most areas but they are really trying to discourage them now. The property has to be your primary residence and limited to a duplex. I believe there is also a requirement in California, you do not sell the home for at least 4-years. My oldest daughter and her husband built a home in Utah as an owner builder. Some of the work was subbed out, some they did themselves and some they hired tradesman. They were required to provide Workers-Comp and pay Payroll Taxes on all of their employees. They also helped the subs they hired so they could have a part in the entire project.

                                Mark

                                We have owner builders here in Australia but they have to hire licensed and qualified tradesmen to do the work they can do all the menial jobs but everything has to be inspected from start to finish and then get a certificate for occupancy before they can move in and the owner builder has to get from his plumber, electrian and builder etc a certificate of compliance guaranteeing the building for six years but I suppose every country has its rogues and we do and it is vary hard to stop them but if people do their homework before buying they will be ok.

                                Tony

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