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I Love The People Here!

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  • Re: I Love The People Here!

    [QUOTE=blue_can;396859]NYC - sure it's fine to disagree. Let me try to clarify the points you have raised.



    My point was actually not to try and say that this does not happen but also to draw attend to the fact that there are projects that are undertaken correctly and safely. After all you may have been called in to fix an incorrectly done project but would you have been called to look at a well executed project. No plumber in SD has seen what I've done. So that was my point.



    Here the point I was making was NHM initially was saying the same thing as you
    and then later changed that to cover all trades after I had highlighted the
    dangers of DIYing other things. I don't really agree that plumbing is special
    over other things done incorrectly and being a danger.
    My opinions do cover all trades but, plumbing is different than other trades because there is the potential there to do harm to a whole bunch of people. Backflow and cross connections can contaminate entire neighborhoods and their water supplies.



    I'm not clear what you are objecting to here. The main point is not to do with
    the amount of training a licensed plumber is required to have by the system but
    rather the implication that anything other than "minor" repairs requires this
    level of training which is what I believe NHM is promoting. I happen to
    disagree.
    You disagree because you really do not understand the implications that plumbing done wrong can cause. Again, it all comes down to experience. We are a licensed and regulated trade for a reason and that reason is not to generate revenue for the state. The apprentice system and regulation go way back to the late 1800's when it was recognized that sanitary plumbing was necessary to insure the health and safety of the public. Sanitary plumbing has done more to stem the tide of infectious disease than all the doctors, nurses, hospitals and medical advancement since the beginning of time. That by the way is a quote from the world health organization and was said by of all things, a licensed medical doctor that understands the need for licensed plumbers and sanitary plumbing.

    Also related is that NHM is concerned about safety and believes the best way to
    save people from themselves is to not divulge info on how to undertake the work
    they are asking the questions about. He has also indicated an influencing factor
    is that doing this takes work away from those who have made it their vocation
    this making it a financial issue. He is also suggesting other plumbers follow
    his example and even implies that people using PEX are hacks. You can go back
    and read through the whole thread to find some of these.
    I do indeed believe that. You disagree because you don't want to spend the money to hire a licensed professional. Yes, indeed it is a financial issue also and those not willing to protect and fight for their trade are the first to complain when business dries up. Pex is for hacks. We have been in business since 1962. We have 13 plumbers working for us.l We don't install PEX at all. Won't touch the crap. Also won't touch CSST, AAV's, flexible supply tubes, plastic pipe hangers, Pro-Press and a whole host of other homeowner hack products designed to be cheap and fast. We also happen to be the busiest and most expensive plumbing & heating company in the area.

    I happen to hold a different view - how about in the interest of safety educate
    someone who comes to ask a question on how to do the work/what is involved in
    doing the work. This will allow those people to evaluate and either figure out
    how to do the work safely or hire someone who has the knowledge to do the work.
    If they have good info it will also give them something to check the work by a
    licensed plumber. After all we know that there are licensed individuals out
    there who can screw up.
    How about we don't and instead we actively go after anyone plumbing without a license and fine the crap out of them. How about we shut down the whole DIY plumbing arena completely including banning sales of plumbing materials, fixtures and appliance from being bought by anyone not holding a license and fining the crap out of any company selling to non licensed individuals.

    NHM is proposing putting total faith in the person doing the work and taking
    everything as having been done correctly without being able to inspect/check the
    person's work (or at least that is the implication of what he is proposing).[/
    Licensed plumbers are required to pull permits and have the work inspected. In fact, most times an inspector will be harder on the licensed plumber than on the homeowner.
    sigpic

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    • Re: I Love The People Here!

      Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post

      Pex is for hacks. We have been in business since 1962. We have 13 plumbers working for us.l We don't install PEX at all. Won't touch the crap. Also won't touch CSST, AAV's, flexible supply tubes, plastic pipe hangers, Pro-Press and a whole host of other homeowner hack products designed to be cheap and fast. We also happen to be the busiest and most expensive plumbing & heating company in the area.
      (Hope he just woke up on the wrong side of the bed)

      Pex is for hacks? ProPress is for hacks? Wow LOL. Buncha hacks on this professional forum. Rick's going to be upset. He's a HACK! But a smart one...

      Pro-Press and CSST aren't cheap. Out of curiosity, is your company the only one in the area? If not, is it the largest? From what you have posted it appears that you may have a hard time accepting change, advances in the industry or want to prevent competition from using faster, legal forms of material which causes your quotes to be less viable? There's nothing wrong with sticking to the older ways - hard pipe, metal hangers, soldering, etc. - but to attack those who may use a mix of it is unprofessional. Besides, whatever works for you, the company, and your township is what matters.
      ~~

      ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

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      • Re: I Love The People Here!

        Pro press is for hacks?

        I can't even justify the expense to be a hack.

        And it's talking out of both sides of your mouth to insist on certification so that you uphold the rules and then throw half the products allowed by those rules under the bus.
        Last edited by rofl; 04-02-2013, 09:08 AM.

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        • Re: I Love The People Here!

          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post


          My opinions do cover all trades but, plumbing is different than other trades because there is the potential there to do harm to a whole bunch of people. Backflow and cross connections can contaminate entire neighborhoods and their water supplies.
          Depends on how you look at. A poorly maintained car going out of control may cause harm to less people but possibly of a much more severe nature. All of these are serious issues. So no plumbing is not in a "special" category.





          You disagree because you really do not understand the implications that plumbing done wrong can cause. Again, it all comes down to experience. We are a licensed and regulated trade for a reason and that reason is not to generate revenue for the state. The apprentice system and regulation go way back to the late 1800's when it was recognized that sanitary plumbing was necessary to insure the health and safety of the public. Sanitary plumbing has done more to stem the tide of infectious disease than all the doctors, nurses, hospitals and medical advancement since the beginning of time. That by the way is a quote from the world health organization and was said by of all things, a licensed medical doctor that understands the need for licensed plumbers and sanitary plumbing.
          Umm...no I disagree because I don't believe in your "one size fits all" assessment. And again no it does not just come down to experience - experience is a factor for sure but so is the scope of the project, the individual person's ability and understanding of what they are undertaking etc.



          I do indeed believe that. You disagree because you don't want to spend the money to hire a licensed professional. Yes, indeed it is a financial issue also and those not willing to protect and fight for their trade are the first to complain when business dries up. Pex is for hacks. We have been in business since 1962. We have 13 plumbers working for us.l We don't install PEX at all. Won't touch the crap. Also won't touch CSST, AAV's, flexible supply tubes, plastic pipe hangers, Pro-Press and a whole host of other homeowner hack products designed to be cheap and fast. We also happen to be the busiest and most expensive plumbing & heating company in the area.
          Mistaken assumption on your part about me. Read post #151.

          Remember a lot of things you talk about are code approved. You may have your personal views on these but they are perfectly legal to anyone to use. Out of curiosity do you teach this mindset to your students?



          How about we don't and instead we actively go after anyone plumbing without a license and fine the crap out of them. How about we shut down the whole DIY plumbing arena completely including banning sales of plumbing materials, fixtures and appliance from being bought by anyone not holding a license and fining the crap out of any company selling to non licensed individuals.
          Why? I don't see some mass scale problem with the way things are right now. In fact given that some places are even without codes why should licensing be relevant. I have already said I believe in having my work permitted, inspected and approved which I always do. Why should someone licensed have to do the work?


          Licensed plumbers are required to pull permits and have the work inspected. In fact, most times an inspector will be harder on the licensed plumber than on the homeowner.
          Total speculation. Maybe maybe not. As long as it meets code and approved that's the main thing.
          Last edited by blue_can; 04-02-2013, 10:02 AM. Reason: fixed quotes

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          • Re: I Love The People Here!

            Originally posted by Plumber Punky View Post
            (Hope he just woke up on the wrong side of the bed)

            Pex is for hacks? ProPress is for hacks? Wow LOL. Buncha hacks on this professional forum. Rick's going to be upset. He's a HACK! But a smart one...

            Pro-Press and CSST aren't cheap. Out of curiosity, is your company the only one in the area? If not, is it the largest? From what you have posted it appears that you may have a hard time accepting change, advances in the industry or want to prevent competition from using faster, legal forms of material which causes your quotes to be less viable? There's nothing wrong with sticking to the older ways - hard pipe, metal hangers, soldering, etc. - but to attack those who may use a mix of it is unprofessional. Besides, whatever works for you, the company, and your township is what matters.
            You may want to check out a thread called "The great pro-press debate" or something like that from about a year ago if you have time on your hands

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            • Re: I Love The People Here!

              Propress is a timesaver and in one of my high end complexes, its the only way that they will allow if working on common piping. 5 story building and only a building shut off. Other than fixture stops. No riser or unit shut offs.


              Believe it or not in the 12-15 years pex has been out, I've used it on 1 repair 10' of 3/4" hot between floors in an exterior wall of a very expensive wall finish. Soft copper was too stiff and hard copper would require at least a 5' channel. Did the entire 10'riser in a 6" x 6" access panel. Saved the wall and expensive repair.

              Csst I use once in a while. Great for running a bbq line, gas dryer, even a replacement pool heater line under a tight crawl space. Had it not been for csst, the homeowner would have had to cut up his pool deck to run a new steel line that rotted out after 30 years.

              No aav for me.

              Not taking advantage of new approved technology is like going back to the caveman days. Might as well hand thread gal steel water pipe and pack lead joints. When was the last time you've seen that?

              Heck there are still old homes around that I still see ridgid steel conduit in the walls. Tell an electrician you want ridgid threaded conduit in a wood framed home, and he'll tell you your nuts. Heck, even schools and hospitals use emt now.

              Times have changed, some for the better and some for the worse. But for me I install what's approved and what I would use in my own home.

              Rick.
              phoebe it is

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              • Re: I Love The People Here!

                Just a reminder to keep it civil or lose the Thread.

                Thanks - Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • Re: I Love The People Here!

                  Originally posted by Plumber Punky View Post
                  (Hope he just woke up on the wrong side of the bed)

                  Pex is for hacks? ProPress is for hacks? Wow LOL. Buncha hacks on this professional forum. Rick's going to be upset. He's a HACK! But a smart one...

                  Pro-Press and CSST aren't cheap. Out of curiosity, is your company the only one in the area? If not, is it the largest? From what you have posted it appears that you may have a hard time accepting change, advances in the industry or want to prevent competition from using faster, legal forms of material which causes your quotes to be less viable? There's nothing wrong with sticking to the older ways - hard pipe, metal hangers, soldering, etc. - but to attack those who may use a mix of it is unprofessional. Besides, whatever works for you, the company, and your township is what matters.
                  It is the largest in the area and by no means the only one. There are a whole bunch of one and two man shops around. And no, I have no problem with accepting new products and methods when they are superior products and methods. I have ZERO interest in getting the job done fast at the expense of quality. The reason we are the largest and probably the busiest is because we NEVER compromise quality for speed and ease of use. In 40 years of plumbing I have not once used an AAV nor have I had to use one. I have always found a way to properly vent a fixture. Have I lost a few jobs to cheaper and faster over the years ? Sure have, don't care. I don't trust pex and probably never will.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • Re: I Love The People Here!

                    Originally posted by rofl View Post
                    Pro press is for hacks?

                    I can't even justify the expense to be a hack.

                    And it's talking out of both sides of your mouth to insist on certification so that you uphold the rules and then throw half the products allowed by those rules under the bus.
                    One of the problems with the "rules" is that with enough money greasing palms, almost anything can get "approved" I still maintain that approved is not the sole criteria for excellence.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • Re: I Love The People Here!

                      I'll wrap it up by saying that there will always be a percentage of Diy'ers out there and regardless of how many laws we pass or posts I make, I doubt that will change much. However, I hold out hope that members of the fraternity of licensed tradesmen will second guess their decision to give their trade away for free. Its not helping the trade, yourself or anybody else with the exception of a few that are too cheap to pay.
                      sigpic

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                      • Re: I Love The People Here!

                        I am sooo feelin' the love, baby.

                        All I have to say about plumbing is if it were easy, anybody could do it....

                        Wait a minute....anybody can.

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