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I Love The People Here!

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  • #16
    Re: I Love The People Here!

    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
    I always make the assumption that if you don't have a 600 classroom hours, 8000 hours On the job training and a ticket that says either journeyman or master then your level of ability is moot point. Just because someone knows which end of a screwdriver to apply does not even come close to competency. We are a licensed, permitted and regulated trade and giving free advice is nothing more that negligent and in many cases, dangerous. DIY forums undermine the entire purpose and intent of permitting and licensing which is to insure the health and safety of the public.
    There is a difference between not helping (which is your personal choice) and actively being rude/insulting to people asking questions. Of course it is easy to do that online - how many people will do that when face to face with someone. You (or me) for that matter cannot determine who is competent and who is not based on online interaction. Many non-plumbers are more than capable of handling most plumbing jobs and I'm sure Plumber Punky is more than capable of working on his chiller. I briefly read his post and although I've not worked on chillers I have worked on car a/c systems and have a reasonable understanding of refrigeration theory and he seems to have a good grasp of what is is doing.

    It is not your mandate to determine if DIY forums undermine safety to the public - if it posed such a serious danger something would have been done about it. If anything I think it is actually a good thing as it will allow DIYer who may not be sure how to do a job to get the correct info and do it properly rather than do a hack/dangerous job. A lot of DIYs are going to go ahead and do the job regardless - do you think it is better to not give them info hoping they are going to hire someone or have a scenario where they end up doing things incorrectly.

    Let's face it - the "other" forum you are a member of has a tendency to actively give out wrong/harmful info to DIYs who show up as some form of "lesson" and think it is funny. I can tell you, members of the public reading that forum will not be getting a good impression of the plumbing trade in general.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: I Love The People Here!

      Originally posted by blue_can View Post
      There is a difference between not helping (which is your personal choice) and actively being rude/insulting to people asking questions. Of course it is easy to do that online - how many people will do that when face to face with someone. You (or me) for that matter cannot determine who is competent and who is not based on online interaction. Many non-plumbers are more than capable of handling most plumbing jobs and I'm sure Plumber Punky is more than capable of working on his chiller. I briefly read his post and although I've not worked on chillers I have worked on car a/c systems and have a reasonable understanding of refrigeration theory and he seems to have a good grasp of what is is doing.

      It is not your mandate to determine if DIY forums undermine safety to the public - if it posed such a serious danger something would have been done about it. If anything I think it is actually a good thing as it will allow DIYer who may not be sure how to do a job to get the correct info and do it properly rather than do a hack/dangerous job. A lot of DIYs are going to go ahead and do the job regardless - do you think it is better to not give them info hoping they are going to hire someone or have a scenario where they end up doing things incorrectly.

      Let's face it - the "other" forum you are a member of has a tendency to actively give out wrong/harmful info to DIYs who show up as some form of "lesson" and think it is funny. I can tell you, members of the public reading that forum will not be getting a good impression of the plumbing trade in general.
      The only exception I have with your post is , yes it is his mandate. He is an educator teaching plumbing. I'm sure like many of the plumbers here he has seen poorly installed systems which do endanger the health of the public. I don't mind helping a DIY with the simply stuff but feel it is a mistake to help someone get over their head. Steve, like many of us here, have devoted out lives to plumbing and protecting the health of the public. I won't change that to to help a DIY who is over his head save a few dollars.

      Mark
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: I Love The People Here!

        Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
        The only exception I have with your post is , yes it is his mandate. He is an educator teaching plumbing. I'm sure like many of the plumbers here he has seen poorly installed systems which do endanger the health of the public. I don't mind helping a DIY with the simply stuff but feel it is a mistake to help someone get over their head. Steve, like many of us here, have devoted out lives to plumbing and protecting the health of the public. I won't change that to to help a DIY who is over his head save a few dollars.

        Mark
        We can agree to disagree then. It's your choice to choose to help or not as the case may be. It's not your decision to decide if DIY sites can thrive or not - that's the job of govt/regulators.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: I Love The People Here!

          Originally posted by blue_can View Post
          We can agree to disagree then. It's your choice to choose to help or not as the case may be. It's not your decision to decide if DIY sites can thrive or not - that's the job of govt/regulators.
          And there in lies the problem. The government and regulators do just that through codes. However, when anyone off the street can walk into Lowe's or Home Depot and buy whatever they want there is no control. Many of the products sold in those stores are not even legal to begin with but the DIY don't know that. That is where we need better enforcement of the codes.

          You and a few others here have the basic knowledge to do an acceptable job. However, there are some here who make me cringe every time they start a new thread.

          Mark
          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: I Love The People Here!

            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
            And there in lies the problem. The government and regulators do just that through codes. However, when anyone off the street can walk into Lowe's or Home Depot and buy whatever they want there is no control. Many of the products sold in those stores are not even legal to begin with but the DIY don't know that. That is where we need better enforcement of the codes.

            You and a few others here have the basic knowledge to do an acceptable job. However, there are some here who make me cringe every time they start a new thread.

            Mark
            Code enforcement is a different issue to what this thread was about to begin with which was where someone went to a forum to ask a question and got insulted. Like it or not around here homeowners are perfectly entitled to do their own work provided the work is inspected and approved. Unapproved work is done all the time whether it be DIY or not. Enforcement of that is a different topic to making sweeping assumptions about people's abilities on online forums. In fact around here the inspectors are very helpful to anyone who have code related questions - you can call and talk to them on the phone or by email.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: I Love The People Here!

              Originally posted by blue_can View Post
              There is a difference between not helping (which is your personal choice) and actively being rude/insulting to people asking questions. Of course it is easy to do that online - how many people will do that when face to face with someone. You (or me) for that matter cannot determine who is competent and who is not based on online interaction. Many non-plumbers are more than capable of handling most plumbing jobs and I'm sure Plumber Punky is more than capable of working on his chiller. I briefly read his post and although I've not worked on chillers I have worked on car a/c systems and have a reasonable understanding of refrigeration theory and he seems to have a good grasp of what is is doing.

              It is not your mandate to determine if DIY forums undermine safety to the public - if it posed such a serious danger something would have been done about it. If anything I think it is actually a good thing as it will allow DIYer who may not be sure how to do a job to get the correct info and do it properly rather than do a hack/dangerous job. A lot of DIYs are going to go ahead and do the job regardless - do you think it is better to not give them info hoping they are going to hire someone or have a scenario where they end up doing things incorrectly.

              Let's face it - the "other" forum you are a member of has a tendency to actively give out wrong/harmful info to DIYs who show up as some form of "lesson" and think it is funny. I can tell you, members of the public reading that forum will not be getting a good impression of the plumbing trade in general.
              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
              The only exception I have with your post is , yes it is his mandate. He is an educator teaching plumbing. I'm sure like many of the plumbers here he has seen poorly installed systems which do endanger the health of the public. I don't mind helping a DIY with the simply stuff but feel it is a mistake to help someone get over their head. Steve, like many of us here, have devoted out lives to plumbing and protecting the health of the public. I won't change that to to help a DIY who is over his head save a few dollars.

              Mark
              Originally posted by blue_can View Post
              Code enforcement is a different issue to what this thread was about to begin with which was where someone went to a forum to ask a question and got insulted. Like it or not around here homeowners are perfectly entitled to do their own work provided the work is inspected and approved. Unapproved work is done all the time whether it be DIY or not. Enforcement of that is a different topic to making sweeping assumptions about people's abilities on online forums. In fact around here the inspectors are very helpful to anyone who have code related questions - you can call and talk to them on the phone or by email.
              Sorry, my initial post was limited to one exception in your post "It is not your mandate to determine if DIY forums undermine safety to the public". That has always been his self imposed mandate and he makes no excuse for it. The reason we've lost so many plumbers from this site is because this site allows advice to non plumbers. I happen to feel I can separate myself when I don't care to reply, some don't.

              Mark
              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: I Love The People Here!

                Okay maybe my wording was a cause of confusion - it is his right to feel that way but he alone does not get to decide whether DIY forums cause harm or good - I pointed out some reasons why having them may be a good idea. I happen to believe that plumbing and related construction work should be done to code, inspected and approved regardless of who does the work.

                The general tendency to tie in DIY work with lack of code compliance is my objection - they don't necessarily mean the same thing. Also I believe a lot of the plumbers you are referring to who object to advice being given out are more concerned about loosing jobs to people doing it themselves while hiding behind the concern of code compliance.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: I Love The People Here!

                  I just wanted to add that I see both, or all sides of this discussion. I appreciate the advice, but I understand the downside of diy'rs. I was going to say it's necessary to follow codes when the job is more involved or technical but then I was reminded of something that happened to me years ago. When I had my first house, the downstairs kitchen sink had a waste pipe that ran to a drainage ditch in the road! The same set up was used for the washing machine. Pour a quart of milk in the sink and there it was next to the road, run the washing machine and the soapy water poured out in plain sight. Remember I had lived in an apartment all my life, and had zero knowledge of plumbing 25 years ago. I dug a drywell, sank a 55gallon drum filled with holes and capped it off with two pvc pipes one leading directly to that kitchen sink, the other to the washing machine. I did not understand the importance or need for a trap. I may have posted this story , so excuse my repeating myself. Sure enough after a couple of days the gas accumulating from the waste water started to fill the living space. I fixed the problem but it proved how even a simple thing can go very wrong for someone who does not know what he is doing! My point is that when giving advice it's best to assume the other person may not have a good foundation from which to work. Frank

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: I Love The People Here!

                    Another thing to consider is where you guys see your's, your families and your friends homes, sometimes I make inspections on upwards of 100 homes per week (40 is more common). The majority of the work which has been done, once the builder has left, is without the benefit of a permit. While most of the un-permitted work is by DIY some has been done by both unlicensed and licensed contractors.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: I Love The People Here!

                      Probably never get a consensus on this one. If you make laws you have to expect that there will be those that will either break them or find a way around. Plumber Punky, my posts are in no way an indictment of your abilities.i am sure you are more than qualified. In answer to your op though, I suspect I know where you posted and yes, those guys are flaming spcinter's
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: I Love The People Here!

                        Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                        Probably never get a consensus on this one. If you make laws you have to expect that there will be those that will either break them or find a way around. Plumber Punky, my posts are in no way an indictment of your abilities.i am sure you are more than qualified. In answer to your op though, I suspect I know where you posted and yes, those guys are flaming spcinter's

                        I don't feel offended in any way. I got a kick out of Franki's discussion of the kitchen and washer (grey water) exiting into the ditch. While frowned upon in most areas it's still a viable rule for agricultural areas here. Even the milkhouse washer goes to the ditch. Recent mandates have updated the quantity of direct waste water. I forget the exact amount, but over that limit and it has to go to a septic tank, manure pit or other digester. I remember only because mom and dad were having fits a few years ago. Fortunately they were way below the limit. We only repaired the existing clay tiles. Some days I'm glad I live in a loose-code area but sometimes, too, it causes problems with the DIY people.

                        It was quite a shock to go to the other site... with their "warm welcome" and all... As to the refrigeration aspect, I made it clear that I was no expert. Apparently, not being an expert there equates to being an unqualified hack who is a waste of space and oxygen. Though, some many posts later, some helpful good people appeared with valuable information.

                        If I do something that appears to be wrong to someone here, please bring it up. It may be wrong, but it just may be different than where you live, too.
                        ~~

                        ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: I Love The People Here!

                          Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                          Okay maybe my wording was a cause of confusion - it is his right to feel that way but he alone does not get to decide whether DIY forums cause harm or good - I pointed out some reasons why having them may be a good idea. I happen to believe that plumbing and related construction work should be done to code, inspected and approved regardless of who does the work.

                          The general tendency to tie in DIY work with lack of code compliance is my objection - they don't necessarily mean the same thing. Also I believe a lot of the plumbers you are referring to who object to advice being given out are more concerned about loosing jobs to people doing it themselves while hiding behind the concern of code compliance.

                          I make no bones about it. Besides the possible health and safety concerns I definately feel that licensed plumbers are doing a great disservice to the trade, their business and the businesses of fellow plumbers by offering up free advice. It absolutely does take the food off our tables and I have heard all of the arguments that they will do it anyway or I can ride in like a knight on a white horse and fix it when they screw it up. Those are lame excuses in my opinion. Frankly there is no reason to ever give free advice concerning plumbing to anyone that is not licensed. Have you ever been to India, Pakistan, Columbia or any third world country? They don't have licensing and their plumbing and sanitation is horrendous. Their people still regularly get sick and even die from waterborn disease that is all but eliminated in this country and it was eliminated due to licensing plumbers. You absolutely do have the right in most states to work on your own plumbing but you do not have the right to endanger your neighbors in doing so. Everybody wants to save a buck, I understand that but plumbing is not the place to do so.
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: I Love The People Here!

                            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                            I make no bones about it. Besides the possible health and safety concerns I definately feel that licensed plumbers are doing a great disservice to the trade, their business and the businesses of fellow plumbers by offering up free advice. It absolutely does take the food off our tables and I have heard all of the arguments that they will do it anyway or I can ride in like a knight on a white horse and fix it when they screw it up. Those are lame excuses in my opinion. Frankly there is no reason to ever give free advice concerning plumbing to anyone that is not licensed. Have you ever been to India, Pakistan, Columbia or any third world country? They don't have licensing and their plumbing and sanitation is horrendous. Their people still regularly get sick and even die from waterborn disease that is all but eliminated in this country and it was eliminated due to licensing plumbers. You absolutely do have the right in most states to work on your own plumbing but you do not have the right to endanger your neighbors in doing so. Everybody wants to save a buck, I understand that but plumbing is not the place to do so.
                            Yes I have actually lived in a third world country. There are many other reasons why things are the way they are in those places which have nothing to do with unlicensed work. According to your argument given the level of unlicensed work int this country we should be suffering serious problems which is not the case. In fact I believe some parts of the country do not even adhere to codes - is that correct?

                            I cannot comment on whether plumbers should be giving advice or not - that is an individual choice. My original point is that if someone goes to a site to ask questions if you don't want to give advice -don't. But there is no excuse for rudeness, calling people hacks etc which btw a lot of your licensed fellow trades people are guilty of.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: I Love The People Here!

                              Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                              Yes I have actually lived in a third world country. There are many other reasons why things are the way they are in those places which have nothing to do with unlicensed work. According to your argument given the level of unlicensed work int this country we should be suffering serious problems which is not the case. In fact I believe some parts of the country do not even adhere to codes - is that correct?

                              I cannot comment on whether plumbers should be giving advice or not - that is an individual choice. My original point is that if someone goes to a site to ask questions if you don't want to give advice -don't. But there is no excuse for rudeness, calling people hacks etc which btw a lot of your licensed fellow trades people are guilty of.
                              I believe that there is some form of licensing required in every state. There probably are other factors involved in 3rd world countries but it all boiles down to lack of licensing and knowledge. Rudeness is not really excusable and indeed the best thing to do is not reply which is pretty much what happens here and on most other diy sites. If you are a member of a few you may have noticed a definate decrease in the number of licensed professionals posting advice.
                              sigpic

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                              • #30
                                Re: I Love The People Here!

                                Unfortunately, tradesmen often give "free" advice like it or not. My wife's cousin is a licensed electrician and said homeowners will have him over to bid on a job and ask him how he will be doing the job, you know picking his brain, then they either take a lower bid or do it themselves! I guess you could give out false information if you feel the person is just fishing for tips on how to do it?

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