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  • #46
    Re: I Love The People Here!

    Originally posted by blue_can View Post
    Just a general point on educational institutions - I've spent a fair bit of time in academic environments studying for undergraduate and postgraduate degrees. As someone involved in R&D work I also from time to time attend conferences. In general mainstream academic institution are generally quite free with the sharing of information on new research and educating of people in general.

    I find this quite contrary to NHMaster's view but maybe trade schools are places where people are taught to horde information - having not been to one I do not know the kind of culture that exist in those places.
    With all due respect you are comparing apples to elephants. You are an Engineer with a fair bit of time in academic environments studying for undergraduate and postgraduate degrees. Not everyone is going to have the same understanding as you. We see the worst of the worst in illegal and dangerous repairs and installations on a daily basis. There is a reason this is a regulated Trade. Plumbing and Electrical are the two Trades where most States limit reciprocal rights and what unlicensed individuals can do.

    Mark
    Last edited by ToUtahNow; 03-26-2013, 10:48 AM.
    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: I Love The People Here!

      I run across more code violations on a regular basis performed by licensed companies, than I do by homeowners by a longshot. Heck even our combination inspectors and their supervisors are clueless. Fortunatly a camera and photos in the right hands with persistance will get the inspectors to do their job and learn right from wrong.

      When was the last time you've been to a home depot qnd seen people wheeling out carts of building supplies? Does everyone look like a licensed contractor walking out with those supplies? I say less than 10% might be licensed.

      1 of my best friends is a surgeon. I met him back in 1993 when he was digging in his back yard to fix a sewer his rooter guy told him was broken. After 3 days of digging with no luck and a wife and 3 kids not too happy, he got my number from the local hardware store.

      I located the line, he was 6' off and also cleared the line with my k750. Hey that was 20 years ago, before cameras and k60's

      Needless to say he was sold on me. Over the years, I've seen him take on some large remodel jobs. He was hands on with some task and supervised with others. If it wasn't for his learned knowledge over the years, he would have been taken to the cleaners by so called licensed tradesmen. Of course he questiond things and I then inspected it myself.

      About 10 years ago his parents had a 1.5 millon remodel done with a high price, highly reccommended contractor. Even with the high price, high end contractor and subs, there were still plently of corrections to be done.

      Once again I see more issues with licensed tradesmen, than I see with do it yourself homeowners. probably because homeowners are not taking on the jobs that are much more than handymen projects.

      Heck if everything installed by licensed contractors was up to code and standards, then experts like mark, wouldn't have a job.

      Homeowners both rich, middle class and poor will continue to do their own work. Most with good results and some will need a pro to fix it or finish it. But it's the licensed tradesmen and inspectors who do a poor job I'm more worried about. And believe me, it's more prevalent than you can imagine.

      Rick.
      phoebe it is

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: I Love The People Here!

        Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
        With all due respect you are comparing apples to elephants. You are an Engineer with a fair bit of time in academic environments studying for undergraduate and postgraduate degrees. Not everyone is going to have the same understanding as you. We see the worst of the worst in illegal and dangerous repairs and installations on a daily basis. There is a reason this is a regulated Trade. Plumbing and Electrical are the two Trades where most States limit reciprocal rights and what unlicensed individuals can do.

        Mark
        That was not the point of my post. My point is do you think you are making things safer by disseminating information or by not giving out information? I can understand not giving information by someone who is in it for the money. However I'm trying to understand this from an educator's perspective.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: I Love The People Here!

          Originally posted by blue_can View Post
          That was not the point of my post. My point is do you think you are making things safer by disseminating information or by not giving out information? I can understand not giving information by someone who is in it for the money. However I'm trying to understand this from an educator's perspective.
          I am always somewhat conflicted in how much help I am willing to give to an individual. If there was a way to always assure the work is going to be properly installed and inspected I would probably feel better about it. However, after moderating this forum over the years I have seen too many occasions where advice is giving but not followed.

          Mark
          Last edited by ToUtahNow; 03-26-2013, 01:22 PM.
          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: I Love The People Here!

            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
            I am always somewhat conflicted in how much help I am willing to give to an individual. If there was a way to always assure the work is going to be properly installed and inspected I would probably feel better about it. However, after moderating this forum over the years I have seen too many occasions where advice is giving and but followed.

            Mark
            In that case would not not be a better idea to offer advice to do the job safely to all asking - even if some refuse to follow the advice, others may do and make the decision to either do the job correctly or determine that it is beyond what they are capable of and then call in someone to do the work.

            I cannot see how not responding at all is a better option on improving safety. Even if a proportion of people followed the advice is it not some measure of success?

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: I Love The People Here!

              "occasions where advice is giving and but followed." Mark, is this a typo or am I missing something? Thanks, Jim

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: I Love The People Here!

                In defense of educators (not that NHM needs my help) or skilled tradespeople giving advice, they may understand better than most, the need for a strong foundation and basic skills which is an unknown on the forum. Students in a vocational class, or an apprentice in the field is taught in a certain progression for a reason. I know folks who have tried to change a washer without turning off the water supply! Twenty five years ago as I was trying my hand at home repairs, I blew out a chunk of metal on my side cutters because I didn't realize there was more than one breaker feeding my living room area. You just don't know enough about the people asking questions to be sure you won't give them enough advice to get them hurt. I'm sure NHm has shared his vast knowledge and put forth some very skilled tradespeople. Those of us who choose to share, and be "helpful" must be conscious of the downside. We may not be legally liable, but are we morally liable for advice given in good faith?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: I Love The People Here!

                  Sorry to cut down your quotes, I did it this way so I could reply to each one without the post becoming unnecessarily long, lol not that it helped.

                  Originally posted by Cleanmen2 View Post
                  This is a discussion .....
                  Cleanmen, I agree with what you are saying. There is a chance many people could receive improper information. That is what makes a forum great though, a person asks a question and they are hopefully presented with a response from the collective. This collected response would negate that %40 you speak off and I'm sure as more people chimed in any misinformation would be weeded out.

                  Originally posted by Flux View Post
                  I'm not speaking for everyone, but I have no problems with people asking me for advice regarding Plumbing or Heating. I just have a problem with ...

                  I do take issue on your "safety" statement above, as I can tell you...
                  Flux I agree with you %100 on the first part. If you read the last part of my statement I address this.

                  The part about the "safety". Lets face it, people can be idiots. To be blunt it's near impossible to protect people who make bad decisions from good information.

                  I also accept the plain truth that as a Licensed Plumber with countless years of experience you know a lot more about your field then I do. This does not mean that people in general should be considered incompetent when it comes to doing some of the easier task associated with your trade just because there are people out there who make bad decisions. My father in law is a Plumber and one of my favorite questions to him is, " is this something I can do". Sometimes he says sure, all you do is this and this. Other times he will say, "it's tough, this could happen, you might get in there and this or this could arise and if that happens then it could get away from you pretty quickly." On those occasions I hire someone. (lol I'd hire him but he lives three hours away)

                  Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                  Yep, I was educated initially...
                  I'll respond to your post in a new posting as your post was pretty involved.

                  Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                  Giving advice at least on the forum is a shot in the dark...
                  Good points and I understand your point of view about advice being a double edged sword for some. I mentioned to FLux above, that it is impossible to protect people who make bad decisions from good information. I just don't see the point in denying someone good info if you have it and it's in an environment conducive to sharing(such as this forum).

                  Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                  ... but maybe trade schools are places where people are taught to horde information - having not been to one I do not know the kind of culture that exist in those places.
                  I can assure you this is not the case. I've enjoyed many area's of study and it's all the same. People are generally pretty helpful, sharing ideas, tricks of the trades etc.

                  I will point out however that when it comes to trades, I have noticed, if you are considered an outsider (someone who doesn't pursue it professionally) you do tend to get the cold shoulder more often than not. Once your in though, for the most part people are extremely helpful. It's a brotherhood so to speak and family is always treated better than strangers.

                  Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                  With all due respect you are comparing apples to elephants.
                  I've been in both environments and I don't think it's comparing apples to elephants.

                  Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                  I run across more code violations on a regular basis performed by licensed companies, than I do by homeowners by a longshot. Heck even our...
                  This is the best reply I've read in this whole thread. Well said. i would give your post two thumbs up if the system allowed it

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: I Love The People Here!

                    Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                    Just a general point on educational institutions - I've spent a fair bit of time in academic environments studying for undergraduate and postgraduate degrees. As someone involved in R&D work I also from time to time attend conferences. In general mainstream academic institution are generally quite free with the sharing of information on new research and educating of people in general.

                    I find this quite contrary to NHMaster's view but maybe trade schools are places where people are taught to horde information - having not been to one I do not know the kind of culture that exist in those places.
                    So you can just waltz into any college, sit down and get a degree for free? Colleges jealously hoard information. They are in the business of educating people for money, not for free. In my case, it's not hoarding information. What it is is protecting the public health and safety. What you do in your home can definately effect more than just you and your family. Cross connections and unsanitary discharge can sicken the entire neighborhood. In fact, under the right circumstances it can pollute an entire aquifir. Reference studies compiled by the Watts Corporation. Again, the whole reason for licensing is to protect everybody.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: I Love The People Here!

                      Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                      I run across more code violations on a regular basis performed by licensed companies, than I do by homeowners by a longshot. Heck even our combination inspectors and their supervisors are clueless. Fortunatly a camera and photos in the right hands with persistance will get the inspectors to do their job and learn right from wrong.

                      When was the last time you've been to a home depot qnd seen people wheeling out carts of building supplies? Does everyone look like a licensed contractor walking out with those supplies? I say less than 10% might be licensed.

                      1 of my best friends is a surgeon. I met him back in 1993 when he was digging in his back yard to fix a sewer his rooter guy told him was broken. After 3 days of digging with no luck and a wife and 3 kids not too happy, he got my number from the local hardware store.

                      I located the line, he was 6' off and also cleared the line with my k750. Hey that was 20 years ago, before cameras and k60's

                      Needless to say he was sold on me. Over the years, I've seen him take on some large remodel jobs. He was hands on with some task and supervised with others. If it wasn't for his learned knowledge over the years, he would have been taken to the cleaners by so called licensed tradesmen. Of course he questiond things and I then inspected it myself.

                      About 10 years ago his parents had a 1.5 millon remodel done with a high price, highly reccommended contractor. Even with the high price, high end contractor and subs, there were still plently of corrections to be done.

                      Once again I see more issues with licensed tradesmen, than I see with do it yourself homeowners. probably because homeowners are not taking on the jobs that are much more than handymen projects.

                      Heck if everything installed by licensed contractors was up to code and standards, then experts like mark, wouldn't have a job.

                      Homeowners both rich, middle class and poor will continue to do their own work. Most with good results and some will need a pro to fix it or finish it. But it's the licensed tradesmen and inspectors who do a poor job I'm more worried about. And believe me, it's more prevalent than you can imagine.

                      Rick.
                      It must be a California thing because I see very little hack work around here (ME, NH, VT and Mass) that was done by licensed plumbers, but then I've always been a little suspicious of things that happen on the left coast. I guess my 1st response would be "why waste your time?" Time spent giving advice is time you are not making money.
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: I Love The People Here!

                        Originally posted by PLUMBER RICK View Post
                        I run across more code violations on a regular basis performed by licensed companies, than I do by homeowners by a longshot. Heck even our combination inspectors and their supervisors are clueless. Fortunatly a camera and photos in the right hands with persistance will get the inspectors to do their job and learn right from wrong.

                        When was the last time you've been to a home depot qnd seen people wheeling out carts of building supplies? Does everyone look like a licensed contractor walking out with those supplies? I say less than 10% might be licensed.

                        1 of my best friends is a surgeon. I met him back in 1993 when he was digging in his back yard to fix a sewer his rooter guy told him was broken. After 3 days of digging with no luck and a wife and 3 kids not too happy, he got my number from the local hardware store.

                        I located the line, he was 6' off and also cleared the line with my k750. Hey that was 20 years ago, before cameras and k60's

                        Needless to say he was sold on me. Over the years, I've seen him take on some large remodel jobs. He was hands on with some task and supervised with others. If it wasn't for his learned knowledge over the years, he would have been taken to the cleaners by so called licensed tradesmen. Of course he questiond things and I then inspected it myself.

                        About 10 years ago his parents had a 1.5 millon remodel done with a high price, highly reccommended contractor. Even with the high price, high end contractor and subs, there were still plently of corrections to be done.

                        Once again I see more issues with licensed tradesmen, than I see with do it yourself homeowners. probably because homeowners are not taking on the jobs that are much more than handymen projects.

                        Heck if everything installed by licensed contractors was up to code and standards, then experts like mark, wouldn't have a job.

                        Homeowners both rich, middle class and poor will continue to do their own work. Most with good results and some will need a pro to fix it or finish it. But it's the licensed tradesmen and inspectors who do a poor job I'm more worried about. And believe me, it's more prevalent than you can imagine.

                        Rick.
                        There is a major difference between your clientele and others. That is probably why they are targets for these scum.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: I Love The People Here!

                          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                          Yep, I was educated initially by my master under the apprentice system and later on by college, again by licensed master plumbers. Not by some internet forum and not by checking out a book from the public library. My experience is not unique.
                          Actually your experience would be unique in ever regard. The info you learned may have been similar to others at the time but your processing of it, application of it etc is all unique to you. I actually find your remark denies yourself credit in a sense that not all trades people are of equal caliber. If by your own words, your experience was not unique, then hiring one person over another shouldn't matter and you are no better than the next licensed guy. Out of curiosity, what do you perceive to be the difference between a library book and a book purchased at the college? You do realize you can get college books at the library, same title etc right?

                          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                          You guys always seem to pit oranges agianst apples. Sure, many of you can change your oil and air filter but there are not many that can properly (note the word properly) repair major issues with your car and even less of you have any idea what NATF standards require. Sure, change your light switch. The worst that could happen is you don't get the wires on tight, they heat up and burn your house to the ground. But hey, its as easy as 1,2,3 LOL

                          This statement is very hypocritical, you are saying it's ok for people to do minor repairs in other peoples trades but you then take exception to it happening in your trade. Apples to oranges, you are the one claiming that replacing a light switch is a mojour undertaking... Seriously, I'm sure that someone who has the ability to turn off the correct fuse, buy the correct parts, remove the face plate with a screwdriver, remove the old switch etc has the ability to re-tighten a screw... so as not to burn the house to the ground.


                          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                          Again, hell yes, I am protecting myself and my trade as every single licensed plumber should also be doing. As for you tube, you have got to be kidding me. I teach plumbing. I have waded through hundreds of you tube plumbing videos looking for anything that would be useful to my students. Thus far, I have found a grand total of two videos that showed the correct and safe procedure. Everything else is crap.

                          If every single trades person though as you did, there would be no more trades. The nature of a trade is to pass along your knowledge to other people who may or may not eventually pick up the trade as you did. This after all is how you said you learned your trade.

                          I'm not debating the value of the information found online, I am saying however that there is an abundance of information available to people who search for it.

                          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                          The only "educating" the public needs is the phone number of a licensed plumber. It builds NOTHING with any customer. Giving advice on the internet isn't going to generate one single dime of income for me or any other plumber here. Just for fun, next time you're at the dentist, ask him if he'll give you a step by step procedure for doing your own root canal. Hell, all you need is a Dremel tool and a bottle of Jack LOL. What makes you think that the plumbing profession is any different? Its a licensed trade.

                          You are comparing the complexity of a root canal procedure to changing a light switch... lol this statement concerns me deeply. You are absolutely with out a doubt %100 completely wrong when you say giving advice online will not generate one dime. My buddy who owns a sports store here in town has over 200+ different educational articles posted in various sports, health blogs online. When you do a search for his store or his name you are presented with all these links and sites that his articles have appeared on. This is advertising, this adds to his credibility in his field, this generates revenue.


                          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                          Thats absolute crap. Its not my job to police cowboys and idiots. Thats why we have licensing and permitting in the first place. It was all put in place to keep UNLICENSED people from causing harm. If you don't know what harm can be caused then that right there is the reason why unlicensed people should leave plumbing to the professionals

                          Police cowboys no, but as an educator isn't teaching "idiots" (as you like to call them) what you do? Don't you have a classroom full people who got interested in the field and are now elevating their game.

                          Again by your standards we should all leave oil changes to mechanics... Like it or not, homeowners have the right to perform in many cases their own work. So get off your high horse and stop trying to talk about protecting people when it's obvious this far in your thread that the only person you are interested in protecting is yourself.


                          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                          I can's speak for all of us but I don't give advice at parties, forums nor do I do it with the customer breathing over my shoulder.

                          Advice at parties was in reference to an example someone else made about a joke between a lawyer and doctor at a party.

                          You don't give advice... does this mean you also don't ask for advice either? In fact given the picture you paint in this thread, the only response from you should be that every time you come across something you don't have a "license" for, you, like a good boy, pull out your phone book and call a licensed professional.

                          Advice with a customer breathing over your shoulder. Go back and read my original post, I address this at the bottom.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: I Love The People Here!

                            I dfo teach plumbing, 5 days a week and a couple of nights a week also but no to just anybody. I teach to kids and adults that have made a committment to the trade and are willing to put the time and effort into the license. Last week my high school students competed in the state Skills USA plumbing contest. For the 4th year in a row one of my students has taken the gold and will head to Kansas City for the Nationals
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: I Love The People Here!

                              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                              I dfo teach plumbing, 5 days a week and a couple of nights a week also but no to just anybody. I teach to kids and adults that have made a committment to the trade and are willing to put the time and effort into the license. Last week my high school students competed in the state Skills USA plumbing contest. For the 4th year in a row one of my students has taken the gold and will head to Kansas City for the Nationals
                              That's awesome, congratulations. Now don't poke fun but I actually won a gold medal at our provincial skills competition, mine was for culinary arts. I competed at nationals but lost. What a great experience though.

                              On a side note, from the title of this thread, who would have though this thread would have turned into such an interesting debate?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: I Love The People Here!

                                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                                So you can just waltz into any college, sit down and get a degree for free? Colleges jealously hoard information. They are in the business of educating people for money, not for free. In my case, it's not hoarding information. What it is is protecting the public health and safety. What you do in your home can definately effect more than just you and your family. Cross connections and unsanitary discharge can sicken the entire neighborhood. In fact, under the right circumstances it can pollute an entire aquifir. Reference studies compiled by the Watts Corporation. Again, the whole reason for licensing is to protect everybody.
                                I cannot speak for the kinds of colleges you are associated with but if you read my post again nowhere was I claiming you will get a degree for free. What you will get though in most major academic institutions is access to research work done by professors and PhD students and usually everyone has access to new and fundamental research other than those sponsored by a for-profit company.

                                Now I understand that there are differences in the setup of trade colleges since I don't think the kinds of colleges you teach at look at the future or how to improve plumbing or the next generation of ideas and products - presumably they are driven by products from for-profit companies. This is unfortunate as a more open environment such as those in science and engineering should help with advances. Now of course that in the academic world the whole idea of tenured faculty members was supposed to help with knowledge advancement and learning without being concerned about financial aspects.

                                If you look at this forum for example you can see a lot of cases where by when someone comes along with a question and people try to help by providing solutions issues pros and non-pros alike get to learn something new. I don't believe in your binary scenario of licensed tradespeople having all the answers and everyone else knowing nothing. You are certainly free to believe this but again as an educator I would expect more flexible thinking.

                                There is actually a concept of knowledge helping improve things for people without everything boiling down to money.

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