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I Love The People Here!

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  • #61
    Re: I Love The People Here!

    I don't see where NHM presented an argument that boiled down to money? Why not respect his thinking and be flexible with his response? Can't you as an educated person accept that he sees more opportunity for a bad result that not only affects the person asking the question but possibly many, many more? Heck, I did not go to college and I understood his examples for concern. Sure many of us offer advice, but there is unknown risk and NHM has made clear his reasons for not going that road. Imagine if you will something as simple as changing a washer on a faucet. You walk the person through turning down the shutoffs under the sink, and the rest of the procedure and assume they will be successful. They somehow damage the calcified shutoff and now there is water shooting all over the place and they don't know where the main shutoff is located? Water damages their walls and floor and leaks down the the unit below. I can't imagine a more simple repair going wrong so easily, but it happens. Some here might get a chuckle to think the person did not know where the main shut off was located, NHM is more responsible than that. Those of us who wish to share information and be helpful can do so, but those who choose not to are no less valuable or welcome here. Frank

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    • #62
      Re: I Love The People Here!

      Originally posted by blue_can View Post
      I cannot speak for the kinds of colleges you are associated with but if you read my post again nowhere was I claiming you will get a degree for free. What you will get though in most major academic institutions is access to research work done by professors and PhD students and usually everyone has access to new and fundamental research other than those sponsored by a for-profit company.

      Now I understand that there are differences in the setup of trade colleges since I don't think the kinds of colleges you teach at look at the future or how to improve plumbing or the next generation of ideas and products - presumably they are driven by products from for-profit companies. This is unfortunate as a more open environment such as those in science and engineering should help with advances. Now of course that in the academic world the whole idea of tenured faculty members was supposed to help with knowledge advancement and learning without being concerned about financial aspects.

      If you look at this forum for example you can see a lot of cases where by when someone comes along with a question and people try to help by providing solutions issues pros and non-pros alike get to learn something new. I don't believe in your binary scenario of licensed tradespeople having all the answers and everyone else knowing nothing. You are certainly free to believe this but again as an educator I would expect more flexible thinking.

      There is actually a concept of knowledge helping improve things for people without everything boiling down to money.
      You might get access to the research but without the instructor it's usually of little value. Tech schools are publicly funded. Equipment and materials are generally purchased through the Perkins grant. My hvac and plumbing labs have most of the latest equipment and tools available and are always on the cutting edge of technology. Couldn't keep enrollment s up if we weren't. Colleges are also very well equipped. I was an ICC member, a state plumbing board member, a code review board member (still am actually) a member of the PHCC and a founding member of the state chapter of the OESP. We don't need nor want an open environment. The purpose of licensing plumbers is to keep everyone else safe, not fluff the ego of a group of DIY cowboys that think because they once changed a moen cartridge that they have the skills to be a plumber. As an engineer you should know better. The only people "helped" are the ones looking to save a buck themselves so don't turn that argument back on me.
      Last edited by NHMaster3015; 03-26-2013, 02:45 PM.
      sigpic

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      • #63
        Re: I Love The People Here!

        Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
        You might get access to the research but without the instructor it's usually of little value. Tech schools are publicly funded. Equipment and materials are generally purchased through the Perkins grant. My hvac and plumbing labs have most of the latest equipment and tools available and are always on the cutting edge of technology. Couldn't keep enrollment s up if we weren't. Colleges are also very well equipped. I was an ICC member, a state plumbing board member, a code review board member (still am actually) a member of the PHCC and a founding member of the state chapter of the OESP. We don't need nor want an open environment. The purpose of licensing plumbers is to keep everyone else safe, not fluff the ego of a group of DIY cowboys that think because they once changed a moen cartridge that they have the skills to be a plumber. As an engineer you should know better. The only people "helped" are the ones looking to save a buck themselves so don't turn that argument back on me.
        No actually that's not the case - for people at a certain level you don't need an instructor to understand research material especially if it'as original work - the only people who can help are the people who did the work and generally they are accessible to anyone including me and you. I used this as an example to show the generally in my experience education is associated with a free flow of information to anyone.

        Unless you can show that a closed system and hoarding information improves things I'm not buying it and as a proponent of free information probably never will. From your posts it is clear that financial consideration plays a part in your thinking as simply opposed to safety. Again I can understand this thinking from someone running a plumbing business but not from an educator.

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        • #64
          Re: I Love The People Here!

          Originally posted by blue_can View Post
          No actually that's not the case - for people at a certain level you don't need an instructor to understand research material especially if it'as original work - the only people who can help are the people who did the work and generally they are accessible to anyone including me and you. I used this as an example to show the generally in my experience education is associated with a free flow of information to anyone.

          Unless you can show that a closed system and hoarding information improves things I'm not buying it and as a proponent of free information probably never will. From your posts it is clear that financial consideration plays a part in your thinking as simply opposed to safety. Again I can understand this thinking from someone running a plumbing business but not from an educator.
          Clearly you don't want to have a conversation but rather wish to insult a man who educates others as a career choice. He is not hoarding information if he chooses not to share with strangers on the Internet, who may intern hurt themselves or others. How can you as an educated man not understand that, is this what college teaches?

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          • #65
            Re: I Love The People Here!

            I don't feel at all insulted. I actually understand his attitude. I have delt with it as far back as I can remover. When I was in business I heard it and now, teaching I hear it also. Unfortunately the general public has the opinion that what. Do isn't all that special or important but.......I guess that's because the average person really has no clue just how much knowledge and experience it takes to be a master in every state except California however, just to be clear, I have zero problems with someone changing a faucet or putting a new flapper in the toilet. I get that, it's not the problem. The problem comes when someone wants to know how to plumb their new bathroom remodel and they no nothing about plumbing at all.
            sigpic

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            • #66
              Re: I Love The People Here!

              So I managed to endanger the public and steal food from someone's table when I installed that commode after tiling the floor.

              I'm such an a-hole.

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              • #67
                Re: I Love The People Here!

                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                Clearly you don't want to have a conversation but rather wish to insult a man who educates others as a career choice. He is not hoarding information if he chooses not to share with strangers on the Internet, who may intern hurt themselves or others. How can you as an educated man not understand that, is this what college teaches?
                I do not believe I have insulted anyone - I just do not share his view on this matter and alternatate thoughts have been given as to why educating people on their projects may be safter than remaining silent.

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                • #68
                  Re: I Love The People Here!

                  Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                  I do not believe I have insulted anyone - I just do not share his view on this matter and alternatate thoughts have been given as to why educating people on their projects may be safter than remaining silent.
                  I myself am a diy'er, and I both take and give advice. "From your posts it is clear that financial consideration plays a part in your thinking as simply opposed to safety." That's an insult in my opinion since NHM had many more examples to support his position. "Hoarding" information, is not something that can be said of a man who is a dedicated educator. I think your comments were disrespectful rather than constructively critical. NHM understands the possibility for problems and chooses to stay out of it, given his accomplishments, education and career I would respect his decision.

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                  • #69
                    Re: I Love The People Here!

                    Originally posted by rofl View Post
                    So I managed to endanger the public and steal food from someone's table when I installed that commode after tiling the floor.

                    I'm such an a-hole.
                    You'd have to get in line behind me I understand and respect NHM's choice. Personally, I have learned and done a number of different home repairs over the years. My worst failure to date is dropping a 70ft oak tree on my house. My wife tortured me good over that one. I told her she should be thrilled to have a husband who would tackle such a dangerous job. Didn't work, no more dropping trees

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                    • #70
                      Re: I Love The People Here!

                      I simply don't get it!

                      On TV they can redo a kitchen in 22 minutes...it would take me 6 months!
                      On TV they can tile a kitchen floor in 22 minutes ...It would take me 6 months!
                      On TV the remodel a bathroom in 22 minutes..it would take me 6 months!
                      On TV they can add a second floor master suite in 22 minutes...it would take me over a year!

                      I blame all the DYI programs for the mess! They are the reason folks who have no business owning
                      tools figure "I can do that..how hard is it framing a house? they did an entire wall in 22 minutes!"

                      I do respect "this old house" when Bob Villa was host as then the homeowner did sweat equity work.
                      Today, however, all they do is cut a check! and let Tom, Rich, and Rodger do the work!

                      I do enjoy "Ask this old house" as they explain what they are doing..sometimes a teaching moment.

                      But the blond bimbo, the wrapper or burned out TV celebrity remodeling and flipping houses
                      is simply outrageous and sends a very bad picture of what's involved! None of them ever show building permits!

                      Holmes on homes is another good show as he shows what scammers and non professionals do..and often
                      even the professionals do a crap job.

                      OK I saw a guy carry a toilet with one hand and install it in 3 minutes!
                      I think I can do that....Oh wait..he also had 12 minutes of commercials to add to his time
                      Rats! whenever I work I never get commercials so for me it's going to be 6 months to
                      finish painting the house!!!

                      Cactus Man

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                      • #71
                        Re: I Love The People Here!

                        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                        I myself am a diy'er, and I both take and give advice. "From your posts it is clear that financial consideration plays a part in your thinking as simply opposed to safety." That's an insult in my opinion since NHM had many more examples to support his position. "Hoarding" information, is not something that can be said of a man who is a dedicated educator. I think your comments were disrespectful rather than constructively critical. NHM understands the possibility for problems and chooses to stay out of it, given his accomplishments, education and career I would respect his decision.
                        You can go back and re-read his posts to figure out why I said financial considerations plays a part in his decision since he admitted that earlier in his thread. So why is drawing attention to that disrespectful. Playing a part means it factors into his decision to share knowledge freely or not. While I understand it is a personal decision it is not what I would expect from an educator.

                        Do you know him personally - how do you know he is a dedicated educator? Just curious.

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                        • #72
                          Re: I Love The People Here!

                          You know I've been think about this topic a fair bit today mainly because there did seem to be such a divide in opinions. After kicking it around a bit I think I found a middle ground that works for me and hopefully some of you as well.

                          I think the variation in our different opnions may come down to a difference in what we have been exposed to depending on our relative ages etc, recent exposure to post secondary education etc. I'm not trying to insinuate that NMH is old, but having 38 years experience leads me to consider the possibility he is early to late 50's. Please do not take my assumption as a slight or as an attempt to insult as I am trying to make a point. Now consider a person 20 to 30 years younger, who has gone back to school numerous times over the years. Having done this myself I have noticed a change in peoples attitudes towards open knowledge and learning. Just look at Mozilla, FireFox etc, all those majour endeavors are open source technology. It's almost like the up and coming generation resents big box companies and is in favour of open source technology and information, wikipedia etc. When I apprenticed I had a hard time with some of the older Journeyman, they wouldn't tell you anything, they would give us trouble if we told anyone else something, it was like they were afraid if anyone knew how to do their jobs then they would be replaced and out of work. In a sense, at one point in time that may have been true and I feel that history has fostered some of the core beliefs and opinions from the generation NHM hails from. Is this wrong, I don't think so, I just think it's different to what is becoming more accepted today as more and more new people bring in a fresh perspective of open learning into various fields.

                          When I first started debating this issue I think I lost sight of this difference in perspective and in hind site I feel I may have attacked the issue to harshly. For that I do apologize if I came across as confrontational or aggressive specifically to NHM. lol It's a charter flaw I'm working on.

                          As it sits right now though, I'm going to bow out of this conversation and wait for the next one of interest. Good day to you all, see you in the next thread.

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                          • #73
                            Re: I Love The People Here!

                            I think Holmes is the real deal and has some very good tradesmen working with him. darn shame to see some of the shoddy work so called Pros do in people's homes. I wish they would show them pursuing these bums and bringing them to some sort of justice.

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                            • #74
                              Re: I Love The People Here!

                              Originally posted by Supermanofsteel View Post
                              You know I've been think about this topic a fair bit today mainly because there did seem to be such a divide in opinions. After kicking it around a bit I think I found a middle ground that works for me and hopefully some of you as well.

                              I think the variation in our different opnions may come down to a difference in what we have been exposed to depending on our relative ages etc, recent exposure to post secondary education etc. I'm not trying to insinuate that NMH is old, but having 38 years experience leads me to consider the possibility he is early to late 50's. Please do not take my assumption as a slight or as an attempt to insult as I am trying to make a point. Now consider a person 20 to 30 years younger, who has gone back to school numerous times over the years. Having done this myself I have noticed a change in peoples attitudes towards open knowledge and learning. Just look at Mozilla, FireFox etc, all those majour endeavors are open source technology. It's almost like the up and coming generation resents big box companies and is in favour of open source technology and information, wikipedia etc. When I apprenticed I had a hard time with some of the older Journeyman, they wouldn't tell you anything, they would give us trouble if we told anyone else something, it was like they were afraid if anyone knew how to do their jobs then they would be replaced and out of work. In a sense, at one point in time that may have been true and I feel that history has fostered some of the core beliefs and opinions from the generation NHM hails from. Is this wrong, I don't think so, I just think it's different to what is becoming more accepted today as more and more new people bring in a fresh perspective of open learning into various fields.

                              When I first started debating this issue I think I lost sight of this difference in perspective and in hind site I feel I may have attacked the issue to harshly. For that I do apologize if I came across as confrontational or aggressive specifically to NHM. lol It's a charter flaw I'm working on.

                              As it sits right now though, I'm going to bow out of this conversation and wait for the next one of interest. Good day to you all, see you in the next thread.
                              You speak like a thoughtful man, who can argue a point and still self exam. I respect your thinking.

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                              • #75
                                Re: I Love The People Here!

                                I've been in business for 25 years...so I probably started the swine flu and starved a dozen or so plumbers.

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