Announcement Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.
I Love The People Here! Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Re: I Love The People Here!

    Originally posted by blue_can View Post
    You can go back and re-read his posts to figure out why I said financial considerations plays a part in his decision since he admitted that earlier in his thread. So why is drawing attention to that disrespectful. Playing a part means it factors into his decision to share knowledge freely or not. While I understand it is a personal decision it is not what I would expect from an educator.

    Do you know him personally - how do you know he is a dedicated educator? Just curious.
    I don't disagree that money, or protecting income for the trade is a part of what NHM said, however he said a lot, gave numerous valid reasons for his decision. I do not know him personally, but I have read enough of his posts to believe he is not in it for the wealth and glory. I believe he is nothing less than dedicated. Perhaps you should get to know him better before assuming anything less?
    This will be my last post on this thread. I apologize if I butted in too much, just respect teachers in general, and try to see both sides of this discussion. Frank
    Last edited by Frankiarmz; 03-26-2013, 09:20 PM.

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: I Love The People Here!

      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
      I don't disagree that money, or protecting income for the trade is a part of what NHM said, however he said a lot, gave numerous valid reasons for his decision. I do not know him personally, but I have read enough of his posts to believe he is not in it for the wealth and glory. I believe he is nothing less than dedicated. Perhaps you should get to know him better before assuming anything less?
      Wel in that case I'm not clear about the point of your posts. I do not know you, you do not know me and we both do not know NHM. Since he does not contribute regularly unlike some others on this forum I have no knowledge of him other than what I have seen in his limited posts. What I choose to derive from that is upto me. Some others on this forum through contribution have impressed me with their knowledge but again I'm going by what I read.

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: I Love The People Here!

        Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
        It must be a California thing because I see very little hack work around here (ME, NH, VT and Mass) that was done by licensed plumbers, but then I've always been a little suspicious of things that happen on the left coast. I guess my 1st response would be "why waste your time?" Time spent giving advice is time you are not making money.
        I agree, it must be a West Coast thing as most code violations are done by Homeowners here versus Handymen and unskilled Plumbers.

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: I Love The People Here!

          Rick you are correct even to say that much of what you say is going on down here. Unlike most of you guys there we do not freely share information and this actually reflects into the school system. I know when I did my time I was gifted the best of both streams, the theorist perfectionist and the realist who knew how to get in and solve the issue. I will state clearly though that both teachers earned our respect and enforced a "do it right by the regulations always" code of practice. Unfortunately with the boom cycle there is always a "skill shortage" which encourages tradesmen to be shifty and negligent and "go for the jugular(MONEY)" without blinking an eye. These guys we also refer to HACKS or harsher as they bring down our reputation. I don't buy jobs and don't negotiate on quality. I know many who do. What worries us the most is the gas jobs. So we charge money for our knowledge. How much is your daughter or son worth. In taking we also must respect that we must give in return. Our tradesmen and apprentices need to be educated into the moral obligations instead of the NEW SUV(as you guys call them) and all the trappings of materialism. Do a good job, do it legally and to the code and charge reasonably.
          As far as DIY, yes I have met many competent HOs and other. However sometimes we say get a pro for a reason. Unfortunately the general assessment of competency is based on price over experience.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: I Love The People Here!

            Originally posted by blue_can View Post
            You can go back and re-read his posts to figure out why I said financial considerations plays a part in his decision since he admitted that earlier in his thread. So why is drawing attention to that disrespectful. Playing a part means it factors into his decision to share knowledge freely or not. While I understand it is a personal decision it is not what I would expect from an educator.

            Do you know him personally - how do you know he is a dedicated educator? Just curious.
            I have only been an educator for the past six years. I still own my business. It employs 13 plumbers and 3 office staff. I have been in business since 1975. Would someone that teaches medicine freely disseminate his knowledge to anyone off the street that asked for it? I think not. Again, I give a whole lot of information out but only to folks dedicated to the trade.
            sigpic

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: I Love The People Here!

              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
              I have only been an educator for the past six years. I still own my business. It employs 13 plumbers and 3 office staff. I have been in business since 1975. Would someone that teaches medicine freely disseminate his knowledge to anyone off the street that asked for it? I think not. Again, I give a whole lot of information out but only to folks dedicated to the trade.
              If you look around you will see an increasing number of medical forums around with MDs proving answers to people with health questions. So what you say is incorrect. I suspect that will grow popular with time as again it serves as a learning experience for everyone including other MDs. Of course the info could be good or bad but that goes for anything online as we have discussed before.

              Your choice to not give out information in the overall scheme of things matters little - again as has been discussed before. People are probably going to go ahead anyway, they will probably get the info from elsewhere, another source may have a better solution than what you can provide etc. So ultimately it is of little significance.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: I Love The People Here!

                Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                If you look around you will see an increasing number of medical forums around with MDs proving answers to people with health questions. So what you say is incorrect. I suspect that will grow popular with time as again it serves as a learning experience for everyone including other MDs. Of course the info could be good or bad but that goes for anything online as we have discussed before.

                Your choice to not give out information in the overall scheme of things matters little - again as has been discussed before. People are probably going to go ahead anyway, they will probably get the info from elsewhere, another source may have a better solution than what you can provide etc. So ultimately it is of little significance.
                I'm wondering how many of those MDs are helping DIYs with doing their own procedures?

                Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: I Love The People Here!

                  I've been reading this thread on and off for the last week and find it interesting. But, it's not hard for me to understand both sides of the discussion, and I probably could argue from either side.

                  As most of you know, I'm not in the trades, but my Dad and most of my cousins, as well as my brother is. However, I don't go to 'relatives' when I need somthing and I generally would much prefer to hire a task done, rather than dabble in it myself. However, hiring is not always an option, nor is it a preferred choice when your finances are extremely tight.... been there, done that!

                  Likewise, I don't like doing even the simplest of plumbing tasks... it just always seems to be problematic and something that should be simple, usually turns into a cascade of problems. No thanks, my limit with plumbing today is replacing a washer or a faucet cartridge and that about it... and why should I call a plumber for that, especially when such as task simply envolves calling the manufacturer, having him send me a cartridge under warranty, and then putting the darn thing in myself. The last time I called a plumber was to fix his own lousey solder job, and the guy charged me $150! Paid it, because I had to agree before he would even come out... but, that kind of crap is a definite turn-off and I find myself understanding why people will tackle jobs on thier own. To go along with that, I think we have all seen statements where some of our very short-term forum members have opinioned their exploitation, because they're the 'only game in town'.

                  On the subject of electricians, I've often seen a few "electricians" (or so they say they are) post some responses on this forum that left me wondering. I think it's not hard to see who is and who isn't "qualified" and I greatly respect the largest segment of the 'electrician' members here. In my own experience however, I've been stood-up by local electricians on a couple of occasions... obviously these guys have so much business that they've forgotten the importance of returning phone calls or making the appointments that they've set. Even with the electrician that I prefer and have used regularly (a "Master"), he's difficult and expensive and does not totally do the job that he says he's going to do... and even he makes some minor mistakes.

                  I don't think you should be "certified" or "licensed" to carry out some tasks, although I truely believe that you need some knowledge and certainly the majority of homeowners, don't have the skill or even the slightest idea of what they should be doing and shouldn't begin to get near either plumbing or electicity. But, here in this county, we are all free to exercise what we THINK are our individual rights... and we like our independance from others, at least as far as our exenditures are concerned.

                  As far as giving advice, I understand... We don't want to give credence to someone's path to personal destruction. And with that concern, I can full well understand why we might not want to give instruction. But, advice isn't the same as instruction and certainly one can and perhaps should "advise" a person to seek out a professional. But come on, there are certainly questions that can be advised upon, that doesn't encourage a person's further adventures into an electrical panel or a plumbing disaster.

                  However, while your reluctance may be of safety concerns, I do find it rather spiteful when you feel that people should not be advised because they are infringing our your trade and thus you are looking at it from financial concerns. If so, I would have to ask, "As an electrician, do you totally render your home maintainance to just electrical work and you really do call a plumbe or a carpenter or a painter, or even a computer tech when you, yourself, are confronted with such tasks? Probably not! And it not, then why not? Certainly if you are going to feel infringed upon when someone posts a question here, than why would you also infringe upon some other trades person, when it comes to your own maintenance needs?

                  The point is, there's a big difference between holding back on advice because of safety concerns and those of financial concerns.

                  CWS

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: I Love The People Here!

                    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                    I'm wondering how many of those MDs are helping DIYs with doing their own procedures?

                    Mark
                    I cannot comment on that since I have not read enough of these forums but the reality is that practical matters prevent people even if they had the skill from performing procedures on themselves so I'm never clear why people always bring up medical procedures to compare against plumbing. We all can treat ourselves for minor wounds etc and that is performing procedures on ourselves. Beyond a point we need to go somewhere for help. So can you see that your comparison is not really exactly comparing the same thing - you don't have to put yourself out in order to do plumbing as far as I know. Comparison to others related construction tasks is more realistic.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: I Love The People Here!

                      Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                      I've been reading this thread on and off for the last week and find it interesting. But, it's not hard for me to understand both sides of the discussion, and I probably could argue from either side.

                      As most of you know, I'm not in the trades, but my Dad and most of my cousins, as well as my brother is. However, I don't go to 'relatives' when I need somthing and I generally would much prefer to hire a task done, rather than dabble in it myself. However, hiring is not always an option, nor is it a preferred choice when your finances are extremely tight.... been there, done that!

                      Likewise, I don't like doing even the simplest of plumbing tasks... it just always seems to be problematic and something that should be simple, usually turns into a cascade of problems. No thanks, my limit with plumbing today is replacing a washer or a faucet cartridge and that about it... and why should I call a plumber for that, especially when such as task simply envolves calling the manufacturer, having him send me a cartridge under warranty, and then putting the darn thing in myself. The last time I called a plumber was to fix his own lousey solder job, and the guy charged me $150! Paid it, because I had to agree before he would even come out... but, that kind of crap is a definite turn-off and I find myself understanding why people will tackle jobs on thier own. To go along with that, I think we have all seen statements where some of our very short-term forum members have opinioned their exploitation, because they're the 'only game in town'.

                      On the subject of electricians, I've often seen a few "electricians" (or so they say they are) post some responses on this forum that left me wondering. I think it's not hard to see who is and who isn't "qualified" and I greatly respect the largest segment of the 'electrician' members here. In my own experience however, I've been stood-up by local electricians on a couple of occasions... obviously these guys have so much business that they've forgotten the importance of returning phone calls or making the appointments that they've set. Even with the electrician that I prefer and have used regularly (a "Master"), he's difficult and expensive and does not totally do the job that he says he's going to do... and even he makes some minor mistakes.

                      I don't think you should be "certified" or "licensed" to carry out some tasks, although I truely believe that you need some knowledge and certainly the majority of homeowners, don't have the skill or even the slightest idea of what they should be doing and shouldn't begin to get near either plumbing or electicity. But, here in this county, we are all free to exercise what we THINK are our individual rights... and we like our independance from others, at least as far as our exenditures are concerned.

                      As far as giving advice, I understand... We don't want to give credence to someone's path to personal destruction. And with that concern, I can full well understand why we might not want to give instruction. But, advice isn't the same as instruction and certainly one can and perhaps should "advise" a person to seek out a professional. But come on, there are certainly questions that can be advised upon, that doesn't encourage a person's further adventures into an electrical panel or a plumbing disaster.

                      However, while your reluctance may be of safety concerns, I do find it rather spiteful when you feel that people should not be advised because they are infringing our your trade and thus you are looking at it from financial concerns. If so, I would have to ask, "As an electrician, do you totally render your home maintainance to just electrical work and you really do call a plumbe or a carpenter or a painter, or even a computer tech when you, yourself, are confronted with such tasks? Probably not! And it not, then why not? Certainly if you are going to feel infringed upon when someone posts a question here, than why would you also infringe upon some other trades person, when it comes to your own maintenance needs?

                      The point is, there's a big difference between holding back on advice because of safety concerns and those of financial concerns.

                      CWS
                      Yes I agree on a lot of things you have said. I rarely ever hire anyone for anything but on occasion I do I find that the job it rarely finished to the level I would do the job to. The difference between a serious DIY and a pro is that the pro is on a time clock and will only finish the job to a certain level before moving on to the next one.

                      It certainly would be interesting to know how many plumbers who think everyone should hire plumber to do a plumbing job would in a similar fashion take all other jobs to related trades or do it themselves.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: I Love The People Here!

                        If it were not for the LICENSE aspect of the plumbing trade then I would say, sure go ahead and hack away but, we have licensing for a reason, which you seem to convieniently either forget or purposely evade.
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: I Love The People Here!

                          I cannot speak for where you are located NMH but here as far as I know all trades are licensed - there is nothing special about plumbing. Examples have been provided as to the dangers of jobs done incorrectly on other things - a wheel falling off a car, a stone slab in a shower coming loose and falling off killing someone or a poorly framed house collapsing. But yet under our system an individual has a right to do the work on their own property - around here as long as it is permitted and inspected it does not matter who did the job. Doing work for others and for compensation is a different matter and due to the liability the party doing the work should be licensed and insured. To me DIY is a special category - even the medical examples that are frequently quoted - as far as I know thee is nothing illegal about attempting you own medical procedure and killing yourself in the process - if you do it to someone else it becomes a very different matter.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: I Love The People Here!

                            Out here, A home owner can pull permits for their own property up to a duplex apt. Realize the majority of questions on this forum are for little diy things not requiring a permit.

                            An unlicensed tradesman can perform up to $500. Labor and material for others. Of course this is typically never enforced unless it ends up in court.

                            If I had to go to every job people call me for, I would need there to be 8 days in the week and that's not going to happen.

                            People appreciate the advise and fact I don't charge them for trying to walk them through their task. If I feel they are in over their heads, I tell them and sch. A call to come look at it. But now with smart phones, I tend to get them to send me a picture so I can see what I need and what they have. Especially with older fixtures and toilets.

                            There is a very popular radio talk show on sunday mornings for the last 20 years. He gives advise to all that call in. Some are capable of fixing it themselves and others are made aware what to ask for when they go in for service. He even will call out a shop that did the wrong thing.

                            I enjoy listening so I can learn too. I also try to diagnoise the problem based on the symptoms peolple call in for.

                            There was another radio show that back in 1989, I was a guest of the host. Got to sit inside the studio and answer questions that were called in. I wasn't allowed to talk on air due to contract with the host, but I did scribble the answers down for him to read and share.

                            This is nothing new. There are websites that answer questions for money. The pros get a percentage and the site gets a percentage. Now If ridgid had this and I got a dollar for every question, Phoebe would have her college paid for by now.

                            This includes sites dedicated to medical and law too.

                            So basically if I was getting paid for giving advise to straingers, that would be fine? But giving it for free is not ok

                            Rick.
                            phoebe it is

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: I Love The People Here!

                              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                              If it were not for the LICENSE aspect of the plumbing trade then I would say, sure go ahead and hack away but, we have licensing for a reason, which you seem to convieniently either forget or purposely evade.

                              NHM,

                              I'm not sure where that was directed, but let me say this: A "license" is required for a lot of things, and certainly I understand that and even honor that recognition. But as related to certain "trades", specifically plumbing and to a large degree electrical work (which I think I know more about, given my desire to escape everything labelled as "plumbing")... there are certain degrees of maintenance that a homeowner CAN DO, is there not? Like, I can change out a wall socket, replace a switch, and even run a circuit and still be in accordance with the local code enforcement folks, as long as I do it to code. My "licensed" electrician has full understanding of that, and has offered nothing in the way of negative comments regarding it.... he fully acknowledges that he's simply too busy and I've fully addressed electrical projects with him. He doesn't offer advice and I don't ask, although I have asked and paid for his "inspection" services!

                              Even my plumber has commented to the extend of "hey, do you want to do this... it will save you money!" (my answer is in that instance, "NO, I'll leave it to the PRO!" -- I won't even seat the toilet... no thanks!)

                              In fairness (just in case I've not read all the posts here and perhaps not something specifically from you), is that offering advice shouldn't be just one big "NO", because that's how you make a living and you feel you shouldn't be denied your money. If that is a professional opinion, then by all means, don't answer. Personally, I don't think anyone should be expected to educate and/or walk any customer through a job for free.... and I'm not sure if anything to that extent has been expected here on the forums.

                              But, at least down in the tools and woodworking forums we often see requests for fixing, maintaining, and even building things... we don't see a lot of "go hire a cabinetmaker, or "that's the job for a Ridgid Techician" kind of answers... but as you point out, they are not "licensed". Perhaps that's all the difference in the world.

                              CWS
                              Last edited by CWSmith; 03-27-2013, 02:31 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: I Love The People Here!

                                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                                If it were not for the LICENSE aspect of the plumbing trade then I would say, sure go ahead and hack away but, we have licensing for a reason, which you seem to convieniently either forget or purposely evade.
                                The biggest reason is so you can pay the governments to work, IT IS A TAX.

                                Just like a drivers license, you pay your TAX, and show a very basic level of knowledge of the rules of the road, and possibly take a test ride, and you have now the privilege to drive,

                                some one with out a license does that mean they do not have the ability or the knowledge it just means that they have not meet the requirements and payed the TAX, to drive,

                                yes there are some who do not know how to drive, (and yet some of them have license's),

                                you keep referring to medical procedures,
                                Who shows up at an accident, or in your home when you call for help, many times there some one who has just taken a few hrs of EMT training that basically taught them to put on a band aid, and take blood pressure, and read through a first aid book, basally some one to plug the holes and to ship you, they do not send a licensed DR, (I am not saying all EMT are ill equipped, but the basic level is not highly trained, (I have taken the course), but there the first responders, and the ones that may save your life),
                                Last edited by BHD; 03-27-2013, 03:04 PM.
                                Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                                attributed to Samuel Johnson
                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X