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  • #91
    Re: I Love The People Here!

    Originally posted by blue_can View Post
    The books on plumbing vary from the 1-23 style books to the more complex textbook style. The more complex ones have more info on plumbing systems and in many cases have the necessary info for someone to successfully undertake what they need to do. Do you really need a licensed pro to change out a faucet cartridge or understand how septic systems work if changing the cartridge is all you plan to do.

    Another thing is that due to advances in technology plumbing has become a lot easier and requires a lot less skill than in the past.

    Should the system be so regulated that for example you need to take your car in and have an ASE certified mechanic read the tier pressures in case you do it wrong and due to low pressure you have a blow out and kill yourself along with others?

    I agree there is good and bad advice online from both pros and on-pros online and in some cases not easy to tell them apart.

    I’m not sure what practice you claim I’m defending. I already said I believe that projects should be permitted and approved and I always do that. Clearly that should tell you that even without a license people can do projects to the necessary level.

    I fly myself and I’m not sure you can compare plumbing to flying – with flying and driving split second decisions can result in death so that is a lot more critical in terms of training than an activity that does not.


    I would venture a guess that you've never removed 4" cast iron from the roof to the basement 3 floors down then.
    26+6=1

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: I Love The People Here!

      Originally posted by EJW1 View Post
      I would venture a guess that you've never removed 4" cast iron from the roof to the basement 3 floors down then. [/COLOR]
      Yes that is correct I have not but you can still prepare for the job in advance as much as you can and think about it before you start. Anything can go wrong with any job - cut off wheel shattering on a grinder is one example. However, there are a lot more things that are not in your control with flying and driving and you cannot predict a lot of what could go wrong as much as you may want to so that was my point.

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: I Love The People Here!

        Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
        NHM,

        I'm not sure where that was directed, but let me say this: A "license" is required for a lot of things, and certainly I understand that and even honor that recognition. But as related to certain "trades", specifically plumbing and to a large degree electrical work (which I think I know more about, given my desire to escape everything labelled as "plumbing")... there are certain degrees of maintenance that a homeowner CAN DO, is there not? Like, I can change out a wall socket, replace a switch, and even run a circuit and still be in accordance with the local code enforcement folks, as long as I do it to code. My "licensed" electrician has full understanding of that, and has offered nothing in the way of negative comments regarding it.... he fully acknowledges that he's simply too busy and I've fully addressed electrical projects with him. He doesn't offer advice and I don't ask, although I have asked and paid for his "inspection" services!

        Even my plumber has commented to the extend of "hey, do you want to do this... it will save you money!" (my answer is in that instance, "NO, I'll leave it to the PRO!" -- I won't even seat the toilet... no thanks!)

        In fairness (just in case I've not read all the posts here and perhaps not something specifically from you), is that offering advice shouldn't be just one big "NO", because that's how you make a living and you feel you shouldn't be denied your money. If that is a professional opinion, then by all means, don't answer. Personally, I don't think anyone should be expected to educate and/or walk any customer through a job for free.... and I'm not sure if anything to that extent has been expected here on the forums.

        But, at least down in the tools and woodworking forums we often see requests for fixing, maintaining, and even building things... we don't see a lot of "go hire a cabinetmaker, or "that's the job for a Ridgid Techician" kind of answers... but as you point out, they are not "licensed". Perhaps that's all the difference in the world.

        CWS


        CW, I have never said that homeowners shouldn't be able to do minor " repairs" plumbing their new bathroom addition however is something entirely different.
        sigpic

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: I Love The People Here!

          Originally posted by BHD View Post
          The biggest reason is so you can pay the governments to work, IT IS A TAX.

          Just like a drivers license, you pay your TAX, and show a very basic level of knowledge of the rules of the road, and possibly take a test ride, and you have now the privilege to drive,

          some one with out a license does that mean they do not have the ability or the knowledge it just means that they have not meet the requirements and payed the TAX, to drive,

          yes there are some who do not know how to drive, (and yet some of them have license's),

          you keep referring to medical procedures,
          Who shows up at an accident, or in your home when you call for help, many times there some one who has just taken a few hrs of EMT training that basically taught them to put on a band aid, and take blood pressure, and read through a first aid book, basally some one to plug the holes and to ship you, they do not send a licensed DR, (I am not saying all EMT are ill equipped, but the basic level is not highly trained, (I have taken the course), but there the first responders, and the ones that may save your life),
          No trade license is a tax. Licensing is in place to protect the consumer. The state makes nothing from our fees and in many cases the licensing agency actually looses money, which is why they closed our plumbing board and put it under the department of fire safety along with the gas license.

          So EMT's may or may not be highly trained but its always a doctor that makes the diagnosis and treatment. Bad example my good man.
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: I Love The People Here!

            Originally posted by blue_can View Post
            Yes that is correct I have not but you can still prepare for the job in advance as much as you can and think about it before you start. Anything can go wrong with any job - cut off wheel shattering on a grinder is one example. However, there are a lot more things that are not in your control with flying and driving and you cannot predict a lot of what could go wrong as much as you may want to so that was my point.

            BC, what do you fly? Do you have your IFR?
            sigpic

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: I Love The People Here!

              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
              BC, what do you fly? Do you have your IFR?
              C-172's. Nope don't have IR.

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: I Love The People Here!

                Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                But yet under our system an individual has a right to do the work on their own property - around here as long as it is permitted and inspected it does not matter who did the job.
                I agree with you 100% that a customer has that right to do their own work in their home...and I actually encourage it.

                However..

                It's insulting to Professionals when a homeowner expects forums like this to help them step by step through their project and in turn the Professional gets ticked off. There are plenty of books out there on Plumbing for one to digest and soak in lots of information on Plumbing. The problem is...people today are too lazy and want information at lightening speed!! I think the homeowner would get more gratification if they took the time to read and understand what they are doing cause they would appreciate our profession and the job they did for themselves.

                Like I said earlier, I have no problems giving my opinion and Professional advice on my trade....I just don't want my brain picked on how to actually do it especially in person...cause it's ignorant.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: I Love The People Here!

                  Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                  No trade license is a tax. Licensing is in place to protect the consumer. The state makes nothing from our fees and in many cases the licensing agency actually looses money, which is why they closed our plumbing board and put it under the department of fire safety along with the gas license.

                  So EMT's may or may not be highly trained but its always a doctor that makes the diagnosis and treatment. Bad example my good man.
                  To expand on protecting the consumer, licensing is also to protect all of us from the work your handy neighbor does. One of the tracts in Southern California
                  with 1,600 homes was having problems with nasty looking and smelling domestic water. Who knew connecting to a reclaimed water supply line could affect the entire neighborhood?

                  Mark
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: I Love The People Here!

                    NHM,

                    Yep, I would certainly agree that advising a person through an entire bathroom project would be beyond what anyone should expect. For anything beyond simpler repairs, or to perhaps provide confirmation of something a contractor might have told him (like "my contractor said so and so... could that be true?"), would be too much!

                    CWS

                    Comment


                    • Re: I Love The People Here!

                      Originally posted by Supermanofsteel View Post
                      On a side note, from the title of this thread, who would have though this thread would have turned into such an interesting debate?
                      Even after all these pages... the theme of the topic is still the same...the subject has evolved a bit. The people here are still better than *over there*. Even intense debate here has not caused even one person to fall to name calling. *Over there* all you need to do is ask a question...

                      Continue on
                      ~~

                      ... it was plumbed by Ray Charles and his helper Stevie Wonder

                      Comment


                      • Re: I Love The People Here!

                        Originally posted by Plumber Punky View Post
                        Even after all these pages... the theme of the topic is still the same...the subject has evolved a bit. The people here are still better than *over there*. Even intense debate here has not caused even one person to fall to name calling. *Over there* all you need to do is ask a question...

                        Continue on
                        One can learn a lot about a forum by just being a guest. I thought about joining this one forum tonight, but after reading through a few threads I realized that forum is a little stuffy for my tastes.

                        But it was neat seeing a lot of familiar faces there ; )

                        Comment


                        • Re: I Love The People Here!

                          Originally posted by Flux View Post
                          I agree with you 100% that a customer has that right to do their own work in their home...and I actually encourage it.

                          However..

                          It's insulting to Professionals when a homeowner expects forums like this to help them step by step through their project and in turn the Professional gets ticked off. There are plenty of books out there on Plumbing for one to digest and soak in lots of information on Plumbing. The problem is...people today are too lazy and want information at lightening speed!! I think the homeowner would get more gratification if they took the time to read and understand what they are doing cause they would appreciate our profession and the job they did for themselves.

                          Like I said earlier, I have no problems giving my opinion and Professional advice on my trade....I just don't want my brain picked on how to actually do it especially in person...cause it's ignorant.
                          This I don't fully understand. I can understand feeling this way if someone calls you in for an estimate and picks your brain with the intention of not giving you the job and planning to do it themselves.

                          However, I cannot understand feeling this way about someone asking a question on an online forum. Someone comes along and throws a question out. Most people I assume are relaxed while browsing the internet and forum and can if they choose to do so answer the question and get involved in the discussion or stay out of it. So I’m not following why this is offensive. It’s not like someone is forcing you to answer the question which is the way some people behave.

                          Speaking for myself I have a few plumbing books and in reality can undertake most pluming jobs I need to do without asking questions here. I very often do because when you get a lot of answers from different people you can end up thinking of ideas you had not thought of before and other plumbers can learn from that idea too. So I think getting involved with discussions is a great learning experience for everyone.

                          There is no correct way to do business but sometimes giving out info can help you out in the long term over being rigid about it. Here is an example – I was at a plumbing supply house and was looking at some pex fittings. I think I was there for something else but ended up at the fittings (just browsing). Another plumber was there and accidentally dropped some fittings. I helped him pick them up and got talking. He started advising me about the Uponor fittings, how they work etc. He spent a fair bit of time talking to me and I was quite impressed since he obviously knew a fair bit. He was just being friendly but I picked his brains a fair bit. I was sufficiently impressed to get his card and pass it on to some friends who I knew were looking for a plumber.

                          Just a thought on free advice – it’s not always a bad thing to give out sometimes.

                          Comment


                          • Re: I Love The People Here!

                            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                            To expand on protecting the consumer, licensing is also to protect all of us from the work your handy neighbor does. One of the tracts in Southern California
                            with 1,600 homes was having problems with nasty looking and smelling domestic water. Who knew connecting to a reclaimed water supply line could affect the entire neighborhood?

                            Mark
                            DO you mean permitting and inspection? - how dies licensing apply to a homeowner (which is who this handy neighbor I presume you are referring to is)

                            Comment


                            • Re: I Love The People Here!

                              Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                              NHM,

                              Yep, I would certainly agree that advising a person through an entire bathroom project would be beyond what anyone should expect. For anything beyond simpler repairs, or to perhaps provide confirmation of something a contractor might have told him (like "my contractor said so and so... could that be true?"), would be too much!

                              CWS
                              One point I would like to make on this is that online people cannot really determine someone's level of expertise and their capability - some people may just be able change out a faucet cartridge and other can do a lot more. NHM certainly cannot determine what is simple and what is not as it highly varies depending on the person and of course online it is very hard to judge. My view is if you are going to help, enlighten the person on what needs to be done and let them make the determination. Most people I know are well aware of what they can or cannot do.

                              Comment


                              • Re: I Love The People Here!

                                Originally posted by Flux View Post
                                One can learn a lot about a forum by just being a guest. I thought about joining this one forum tonight, but after reading through a few threads I realized that forum is a little stuffy for my tastes.

                                But it was neat seeing a lot of familiar faces there ; )
                                Is it a "plumbers only" forum. I know a lot of people on here are over there with the same name

                                Comment

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