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  • Re: I Love The People Here!

    Originally posted by blue_can View Post
    Can you give some examples? You cannot guarantee anything without proving this is true for every person on the planet. If you can show a scientific study which proves this sure I'll be willing to buy it but not otherwise.
    You remodeled your bathroom, did your own plumbing, had it permitted and inspected and the inspector was happy, so... that means in the experience department you have a total score of 1 against almost any journeyman plumber who's score is over a few hundred. Its about experience.
    sigpic

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    • Re: I Love The People Here!

      Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
      You remodeled your bathroom, did your own plumbing, had it permitted and inspected and the inspector was happy, so... that means in the experience department you have a total score of 1 against almost any journeyman plumber who's score is over a few hundred. Its about experience.
      TH is what you said to CWS
      I have never said that homeowners shouldn't be able to do minor " repairs" plumbing their new bathroom addition however is something entirely different.
      Your broad assumption about people clearly did not apply to me as you can see. So no it's not all about experience - it is about each individual person's ability, skill, complexity of the work they undertake etc. Many factors that simply do not come down to a single determining factor.

      There are other forums that feature some pretty impressive work by DIYers including plumbing. You may want to check out some of those also to see what some people are capable of.

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      • Re: I Love The People Here!

        I have read this entire thread and it completely changed my thinking. I used to say "never argue religion or politics". Now I have to say "never argue religion, politics, or plumbing"!

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        • Re: I Love The People Here!

          Originally posted by Pipestone Kid View Post
          I have read this entire thread and it completely changed my thinking. I used to say "never argue religion or politics". Now I have to say "never argue religion, politics, or plumbing"!
          Probably more accurate would be "religion, politics, or anything involving the trades". All the way through this thread you could replace the word plumbing with electrical, automotive, carpentry, HVAC, etc, etc and it would still read the same. Be it right, wrong or indifferent, people just get their backs up a bit when you mess with their wallet.
          Teach your kids about taxes..........eat 30 percent of their ice cream.

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          • Re: I Love The People Here!

            (he was supervising an inspector who was new and was learning so they both came for the inspection)
            Don't know about your states requirements but here you need 10 years or more documented work as a plumber to even apply for the inspectors job plus have the 24 credits required and pass the plumbing inspector test and the sub-code offical test. I don't see a person with this level of expierence needing their hand held to make a simple inspection.
            ---------------
            Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
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            “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
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            "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
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            sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

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            • Re: I Love The People Here!

              Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
              Don't know about your states requirements but here you need 10 years or more documented work as a plumber to even apply for the inspectors job plus have the 24 credits required and pass the plumbing inspector test and the sub-code offical test. I don't see a person with this level of expierence needing their hand held to make a simple inspection.
              I cannot answer the specifics of this as I have not looked into what it takes to become an inspector here. I'm simply going by what I was told by the senior inspector as to why there were two of them. However, my inspection was one of many they were going to that morning - I do not know what the others were but they could have been a lot more complex.

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              • Re: I Love The People Here!

                Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                TH is what you said to CWS

                Your broad assumption about people clearly did not apply to me as you can see. So no it's not all about experience - it is about each individual person's ability, skill, complexity of the work they undertake etc. Many factors that simply do not come down to a single determining factor.

                There are other forums that feature some pretty impressive work by DIYers including plumbing. You may want to check out some of those also to see what some people are capable of.
                When things go wrong experience is everything. I have never seen anything impressive done by a homeowner. I have seen things done the right way but the right way isn't impressive. However I would venture to say that close to 90% of what I have seen done by homeowners is savage at best and while neatness doesn't count, it is the difference between a professional and a hack. Leading someone stpe by step through a project is little more than teaching a chimpanzee how to take something mechanical apart. They may get it right but they don't know why and if you throw something in to the project that they have no experience with, they are stopped dead in their tracks. There is a reason why apprentices do 4 years and 600 hours of classroom time. Its to learn the theory behind the practice. Any idiot with a pex tool and cutter can string plastic all over the basement. Its not the work, its the knowledge and experience however, my rant will make very little difference among the weekend warrior crowd. They are too stubborn and cheap to listen to reason. Mostly what I hope my diatribe will do is open the eyes of licensed professionals in all trades to the pitfalls and sheer stupidity of giving their knowledge and trade away for free. Its not helping anybody except the homowner and though he may profusely thank you and stroke your ego in print, thats all you are ever going to get from him. Especially if he's a thousand or more miles away.
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                • Re: I Love The People Here!

                  When you label those who you disagree with as exhibiting "sheer stupidity" it's difficult to agree on any point.

                  Kind of comes across as "arrogant superiority".

                  In all honesty I don't generally want advice from someone who looks down on me anyway. So keep your advice and I'll interact with people that don't agonized over clarifying small points that reveal I don't have license.

                  I'd suggest some antacids, but I'm not licensed as a Dr either.
                  Last edited by rofl; 03-30-2013, 12:05 PM.

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                  • Re: I Love The People Here!

                    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                    When things go wrong experience is everything. I have never seen anything impressive done by a homeowner. I have seen things done the right way but the right way isn't impressive. However I would venture to say that close to 90% of what I have seen done by homeowners is savage at best and while neatness doesn't count, it is the difference between a professional and a hack. Leading someone stpe by step through a project is little more than teaching a chimpanzee how to take something mechanical apart. They may get it right but they don't know why and if you throw something in to the project that they have no experience with, they are stopped dead in their tracks. There is a reason why apprentices do 4 years and 600 hours of classroom time. Its to learn the theory behind the practice. Any idiot with a pex tool and cutter can string plastic all over the basement. Its not the work, its the knowledge and experience however, my rant will make very little difference among the weekend warrior crowd. They are too stubborn and cheap to listen to reason. Mostly what I hope my diatribe will do is open the eyes of licensed professionals in all trades to the pitfalls and sheer stupidity of giving their knowledge and trade away for free. Its not helping anybody except the homowner and though he may profusely thank you and stroke your ego in print, thats all you are ever going to get from him. Especially if he's a thousand or more miles away.
                    Just because you have not seen anything impressive plumbing done by a non-plumber it does not mean it does not exist. Your view is a very small view into a much larger world. You are simply exposed to the capabilities of the people that you have encountered.

                    So now you are extending your logic to all trades?

                    I will being up a point which I mentioned earlier in the thread - newer technology makes it easier to plumb with less skill and training in the past. That would imply needing less training to do things that may have required more training in the past. I'm not sure where you keep getting this 600 hours from. Depending on individual ability some may take 600, some more, some less. I'm not sure where this magic number comes from. Also remember that an HO needs to have sufficient skill just to pull of their own project so the 600 number does not really apply here.

                    Nothing stays static and the world is always changing. Right now the the flow of information due to things like the Internet actively not posting on plumbing related topics to non-plumbers will make very little difference IMO.

                    You should need to recognize that due to greater information flow and changes in technology plumbing and for that matter other trades may need to re-evaluate the training and maybe recognize that as much training may not be required as in the past.

                    You may recall that vocations such as travel agents have been pretty much killed off by the Internet and online transactions. All professions and trades (including my own) are continually affected by ongoing change and plumbing is no exception. It is upto an individual to monitor their own personal career and take steps to change with the times as appropriate if things are not working for them in their chosen vocation.

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                    • Re: I Love The People Here!

                      Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                      I will being up a point which I mentioned earlier in the thread - newer technology makes it easier to plumb with less skill and training in the past. That would imply needing less training to do things that may have required more training in the past. I'm not sure where you keep getting this 600 hours from. Depending on individual ability some may take 600, some more, some less. I'm not sure where this magic number comes from. Also remember that an HO needs to have sufficient skill just to pull of their own project so the 600 number does not really apply here.
                      It seems you are discounting the 8,000 hours of on the job training that goes along with that class work. In addition, the new technology you are talking about is the stuff that is taught in the first couple of months on the first year of a 4-year apprenticeship. The work you do as a DIY is a very small part of the trade.

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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                      • Re: I Love The People Here!

                        Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                        It seems you are discounting the 8,000 hours of on the job training that goes along with that class work. In addition, the new technology you are talking about is the stuff that is taught in the first couple of months on the first year of a 4-year apprenticeship. The work you do as a DIY is a very small part of the trade.

                        Mark
                        As a DIY all I need to know is what I need to get my job done successfully. I don't need 8000 hours of training to do that. What job in an average home requires 8000 hours of training. Can you give some examples?

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                        • Re: I Love The People Here!

                          Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                          As a DIY all I need to know is what I need to get my job done successfully. I don't need 8000 hours of training to do that. What job in an average home requires 8000 hours of training. Can you give some examples?
                          I was merely responding to your comment regarding the possible need for less training. The fact that you have AutoCAD available to you now did not turn your engineering degree into a 6-weeks course.

                          Mark
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                          Comment


                          • Re: I Love The People Here!

                            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                            I was merely responding to your comment regarding the possible need for less training. The fact that you have AutoCAD available to you now did not turn your engineering degree into a 6-weeks course.

                            Mark
                            Okay fair enough although how regularly are things like the amount of training required reviewed? Something that was true 20 years ago does not necessarily hold true today. That's what I was getting at. Does the plumbing system review these requirements on an annual basis for example? As far as the CAD example and designs - things like CAD have made things much easier but as a result designs have also got a lot more complex and so that could explain why the level of training required is probably not changed. Also learning to use CAD programs requires an initial learning curve.

                            Contrast that to a plumbing system in a home - has anything changed significantly in the last 50 years as far as architecture? On the other hand thing things like joining pipe has got a lot easier. So I'm trying to understand why the level of training should remain the same.

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                            • Re: I Love The People Here!

                              Originally posted by blue_can View Post
                              Okay fair enough although how regularly are things like the amount of training required reviewed? Something that was true 20 years ago does not necessarily hold true today. That's what I was getting at. Does the plumbing system review these requirements on an annual basis for example? As far as the CAD example and designs - things like CAD have made things much easier but as a result designs have also got a lot more complex and so that could explain why the level of training required is probably not changed. Also learning to use CAD programs requires an initial learning curve.

                              Contrast that to a plumbing system in a home - has anything changed significantly in the last 50 years as far as architecture? On the other hand thing things like joining pipe has got a lot easier. So I'm trying to understand why the level of training should remain the same.
                              Changes are made at a minimum annually at National, State and Local levels. The trades of Plumbing and Architecture has changed considerably in the last 50-years. The fact that you don't see it happening does not mean that it is not happening. If I had to rate the importance of being able to join pipes as related to the trade of Plumbing it is less that 2%.

                              Mark
                              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                              Comment


                              • Re: I Love The People Here!

                                I said I wasn't going to post on this thread but reading some of these ignorant posts really gets my blood boiling. I'm reminded of a line from a song" The things that pass for knowledge I don't understand". Perhaps the very first job a diy'r undertakes should require hundreds if not thousands of hours of training because of what "could" go wrong but does not. Just because joing pipe has gotten easier doe not mean it requires a less skillful person doing the job. There are computer driven surgiical devices on the market, but they are used in the hands of skillful surgeons. The difference between a skilled, well trained and highly experienced tradesman, and a diy'er doing the same job is the degree of skill versus dumb luck! I was lucky not to have gotten electrocuted or to have burned down my house when doing electrical work over the years. Lucky not to flood my home or cause a backwash of sewerage when doing plumbing, etc. Diy'ers can get very skilled at a multitude of repairs, but the hazards and liability of not working side, by side next to a skilled professional, or in a structured classroom cannot be dismissed. Us diy'ers can feel very accomplished when a repair goes well, but we should not assume the training, and knowledge of a professional is unnecessary. If anything, the training and knowledge to succeed today has got to be much greater than in the past.

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