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  • #31
    Re: Weak Constitution?

    I typed up a long ode to the topic at hand, then realised simplicity is it's own genius.

    When it comes to the Constitution, the only thing weak about it is our hold upon it!
    The inclination to release is indeed great, afterall, it is so much easier to cut through all the chains built in as long as the end result is justice served to those who harmed a great many. But that is not justice, it is revenge, an act that is considered a sin in every culture. Revenge blinds a man not with darkness, but with the flames of rage that engulfs all vision except for a narrow slit directed at a target. Mind you, this is all too easy to be confused with Focus, but this is not focus. That narrow vision allows the great enemy of us all to place any target of his choosing within that narrow band of vision to distract us all from the greater dangers around us. In this case, to allow a democracy to be confused with a mob of like minded citizens to place a terrorist label upon other citizens at will. Due process quells these fires and the resulting smoke that hides actions in the backgrounds to enable justice to see all and come to a well informed decision.

    In times of crisis, we must grasp these very principles ever stronger if we are to consider ourselves a civilization, to be above a great mob of people that responds only to momentary commands and reactions based upon the events that clash with norms of the moment. Even Rome, when sacked and burned numerous times, held firm and thus endured centuries to forever be a model of a self-governing construct. Hell, look at England's Magna Carta, a prototype to our Constitution, endured the ages, though such a people endured plague, warfare, conquest, and finally decline of all it's colonies. A perfect example is how England's government handled the subway bombing of 2005.
    Last edited by tailgunner; 04-28-2013, 12:18 AM.

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    • #32
      Re: Weak Constitution?

      Originally posted by Cleanmen2 View Post
      Sorry TONY but what we need to do is send a clear message. Gitmo was not necessarily the answer but so too is letting the civil libbos loose. Take that piece of trash Julian Knight. How many hospital beds have gone wasted because of the money being redirected to his vexacious litigation ploys. Trial, verdict end of story. Let them rot in hell.
      What the hell is your christian name Cleanmen 2
      Remenber what happened to that Indian doctor in Queensland a couple of years ago who was arrested by our federal police held and interragated for weeks because he had a sims card innocently given to him by a relavitive who tried to bomb London.
      What I am saying it can happen to anyone that is why everyone deserves due process and this is the foundation of all our democracies which has been evolving since the Magna Carta
      Julian Knight had a fair trail which was his right under our constitution but our governments have taken the death penalty out of the equation would you rather we go back to the lynch mob mentality I know I wouldn`t

      Tony

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      • #33
        Re: Weak Constitution?

        I briefly skimmed this thread and sorry Frank but I'm in agreement with CWS, NMH and a few other who have posted. A couple of things caught my eye

        If we have to deny immigration, and access to our colleges to a specific group of people in order to reduce acts of terror, then which is at greater risk, our Constitution, or the American citizens killed and maimed by terrorist bombings?
        Are you aware that part of the immigration process is an extensive FBI background check and fingerprinting. People are just not "let in" as you seem to think.

        I also think something needs to be done to take the reward away from mass murderers, such as never mentioning the killer's name.
        A lot of mass killer using guns end up killing themselves so not mentioning their name after their death is hardly going to be effective. Preventing them from getting guns in the case of mass shooters would be more effective.

        I lived in London during the IRA period (hard to believe for Frank I'm sure but there are actually non-muslim terrorists around) and people generally took the risk in the stride of daily life. Since then there have been also the 4 muslims who blew up bombs a few years ago. Also the nail bomber incident where some deranged white engineer who hated blacks, Indians and gays put bombs packed with nails in (if my memory serves me correctly) in Brick Lane, Brixton and in a gay bar/pub with really nasty injuries not dissimilar to the Boston bombings. But in general life goes on in London without all the talk about denying people their right to due process, reference to enemy combatants etc.

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        • #34
          Re: Weak Constitution?


          That's not as much of a stretch as your assertion that our rights will fall
          first.
          I am late to this thread and have not read it all, but I disagree with this statement. Our rights have already been diminished because of the Boston incident. In a few days there will be a running event in Philadelphia where only a couple days after Boston the they announced that the event would go on BUT all you good Americans who have done nothing wrong are now not allowed to bring anything like a backpack, or a purse or similar object which could be used to hold a bomb.

          So to your question, it only took two days for our rights to 'fall'.

          Now the new mother with a young child who needs to drag around diapers and a bottle or two and whatever else she needs to care for her new baby can not or must stuff everything in a clear plastic bag (maybe that will be allowed). If I wanted to bring a cooler with some drinks and comething to eat while I watched the event I now can not.

          At airports we all have lost something being screened as potential criminals/terrorists, can't bring this or that, get to the airport 3 hours early to take a one hour flight. Cost of flights going up and your taxes going up to pay for all this screening and added security. Everything you bring with you being searched and subject to theft by TSA employees. No, we didn't lose anything here did we?

          States wanting to restrict purchases of ammo and require recording of those who purchase ammo in any quantity. Will we be required to register our pressure cookers next? Will there be a form you have to fill out and send of to the state along with your fingerprints? Will you be limited to buying one pressure cooker a month like handguns are here in NJ? This is stupid stuff. Stupid in that it does nothing to protect anyone because such 'feel good' laws and regulations only ease the publics immediate ire over the situation. If I want a pressure cooker to build a bomb with I'm going to find as many as I need at yard sales and flea markets where no one will ask my name or for ID, some goes for guns and ammo too for that matter. Ammo restrictions will only drive the creation of an underground market. A large percentage of the ammo produced today comes from foreign countries, it will be smuggled in and sold to fund criminal organizations inside and outside the USA. Nothing gained except the honest citizen lost a little piece of his rights in the name of 'security'.

          All in the name of protecting us from what might happen. Not saying its entirely wrong, just pointing out that we have all lost some of our rights and everyone (for the most part) seems content to let it happen. One of those being a right to be treated with some respect and not as a potential criminal or anarchist.

          As far as those who committed the bombing in Boston, unfortunately they are citizens having obtained that status (apparently) through the proper channels and methods. So under the Constitution they need to be processed in the courts as such. These are not the first or last pair to kill and injure groups of people, unfortunately they won't be the last. But to again chip away at the rights of honest Americans is wrong.

          Its become so easy to do so its scary. Years ago when those in Washington could not feel the immediate pressure of the public and communications were slower there was time to reason these things out, temperaments to cool, and rational decisions to prevail. Now-a-days Congressmen and Senators are faced with a firestorm of tweets, emails, and phone calls because more than 2/3 of the population is walking around with a device capable of delivering instant communication from irate constituents. In some ways this immediate pressure can be a force for good, but it can also become the voice of an irrational, angry mob in a manner of speaking. One that needs to be listened to but maybe not obeyed with instant dispatch. Politicians whose goal is to remain in office will do what they have to to satisfy this angry voice. And if that means some honest American loses just a little piece of his 'rights' so be it.

          But a representative be he/she in the Senate or House will presumably be more cautious, and give proper consideration to all facets of the situation before taking a position on either side of the subject in question, at least that is how I would want my representatives to act.



          I think a clearly identified case of terrorism such as this along with the
          discovery of the accused and their background makes for a good argument to
          suspend any opportunity for Constitutional rights, and the immediate
          intervention of a military process.
          How will making this a policy for handling these types of crimes after the fact deter anyone bent on carrying out their intended mission. They have no need or respect for rights else they would not commit the crimes they do. so again this only in my opinion serves to chip away at my rights in the name of creating a more secure condition, but a false one at that.
          Last edited by Bob D.; 04-28-2013, 07:32 AM.
          ---------------
          Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
          ---------------
          “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
          ---------
          "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
          ---------
          sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

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          • #35
            Re: Weak Constitution?

            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
            Sorry CWS, we disagree. You can draw such a comparrison between my proposal of denying Constitutional rights to confirmed terroists who are Americans and nazi germany, but I do not see it. Where we draw the line would be decided by our swift and hard working legislators ( it's hard to even write that without laughing myself sick!). I mentioned in a previous post that new technoligies and behaviors warrant new laws to meet the threat, in this case it is American citizens committing terrorist acts. I also think something needs to be done to take the reward away from mass murderers, such as never mentioning the killer's name. We don't have to destroy or weaken the Constitution to deny it to a specific growing group of killers. There needs to be a better deterrent, the thought of judgement under our legal system is not much of one. Offer suggestions if you don't like mine. Perhaps if found guilty instead of humane death, some sort of horrific, publically televised execution to impress the radical islamists? Too harsh, too unAmerican? Yes, but killing children and adults with bombs is not humane, is it? You can only turn the other cheek so many times before you are beaten to a pulp. This is more than a war of words and principles, it is real lives lost and destroyed.

            They are not confirmed terrorists until they have been indicted and tried.
            sigpic

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            • #36
              Re: Weak Constitution?

              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
              They are not confirmed terrorists until they have been indicted and tried.
              NHM, you are correct. New laws would take into consideration evidence such as the videos, and photos of them just prior to the bombings, terrorist threats make on public media and evidence taken from their homes along with statments gathered, prior to making a determination. Once a determination was made based on the evidence and they were legally confirmed to be terrorists, that is when they would be denied Constitutional rights and handed over the the military. No need to immediately charge them, make a determination first. If statements such as were made by them on public media along with other evidence upheld they were terrorists, then let the military question, interrogate, charge, try and execute them. Works for me.

              Bob, the only deterrent would be that they would not have our civilian legal process with it's many long drawn out procedures of appeals and correct me if I'm wrong but a military death penalty is not the same as civilian in the years long appeal process?

              "Blue-can, Are you aware that part of the immigration process is an extensive FBI background check and fingerprinting. People are just not "let in" as you seem to think."
              That does not help when they are radicalized here, does it? The FBI dropped the ball here and Americans died and were crippled for life. The process must be improved. Do you know I.C.E. agents are suing the federal government for not allowing them to do their jobs? We have massive dysfunction in applying existing laws and safety measures. Deny access until the method improves and terrorism goes away. The alterantive would be to live with more and more frequent bombings, is that a kinder solution? We need to make harsh choices.
              Last edited by Frankiarmz; 04-28-2013, 12:21 PM.

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              • #37
                Re: Weak Constitution?

                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                NHM, you are correct. New laws would take into consideration evidence such as the videos, and photos of them just prior to the bombings, terrorist threats make on public media and evidence taken from their homes along with statments gathered, prior to making a determination. Once a determination was made based on the evidence and they were legally confirmed to be terrorists, that is when they would be denied Constitutional rights and handed over the the military. No need to immediately charge them, make a determination first. If statements such as were made by them on public media along with other evidence upheld they were terrorists, then let the military question, interrogate, charge, try and execute them. Works for me.

                Bob, the only deterrent would be that they would not have our civilian legal process with it's many long drawn out procedures of appeals and correct me if I'm wrong but a military death penalty is not the same as civilian in the years long appeal process?

                "Blue-can, Are you aware that part of the immigration process is an extensive FBI background check and fingerprinting. People are just not "let in" as you seem to think."
                That does not help when they are radicalized here, does it? The FBI dropped the ball here and Americans died and were crippled for life. The process must be improved. Do you know I.C.E. agents are suing the federal government for not allowing them to do their jobs? We have massive dysfunction in applying existing laws and safety measures. Deny access until the method improves and terrorism goes away. The alterantive would be to live with more and more frequent bombings, is that a kinder solution? We need to make harsh choices.
                Frank that is a big assumption that people who immigrated in their lifetime are the only ones likely to commit these kind if things and thus fixing immigration will fix the issue. At least one of the London bombers if not all were born in the UK.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Weak Constitution?

                  Jumping in here after a day or two and it's interesting to see all of our points of view, and yet we are keeping very civil about it all.

                  Tailgunner! That was one nice piece of writing and I enjoyed your thoughts. Thanks so much, it was a joy to read and I agree with everything you expressed.

                  blue_can, I think we all forget that "terrorism" comes from different places, different faces, and the causes are all varied, as is the source of the insurgents. I can only imagine the experience of living in an area where there is so much political stress, that anyone that you might be friends with could well be following a cause to such extremes. Seeing the terrible political rhetoric here in America over the last several years, scares me to think what may be building in the minds of some of our own citizens who feel to such extremes and yet continue to listen to those pundits who make their riches by pushing such buttons.

                  NHM, That is very true, we don't see murderers, rapists, or even terrorists until out legal system declares them guilty of such. I understand and I agree (almost) with the process. But the other end of my "almost" is that sometimes is just seems so damned obvious that I wish we didn't have to waste the time and the money. I suppose that I am wrong in that, and as I've said earlier, where do we draw the line? The fact is that, at least with me, I can't draw the line anywhere. I want things to be swift and simple and often say to myself, "If I were King"... but then I know that can't be done, that "justice" must have a very defined path it must follow... with absolutely NO exceptions! Otherwise we subject all to our human failures, and that can be a treacherous domino effect that may not be controllable.

                  BobD, You are right in that we all loose in these recent events. I don't have answers to any of it, and yet if we don't change some of our behaviors, we only make things harder to detect. Perhaps is just our modern times, and I joke with my wife about how very much different life has changed for individuals, most all of us. When I grew up, the only time you saw a backpack was when you camped out. Women mostly had these tiny little purses, me didn't wear Jewry and nobody walked around carrying telephones. About the only guys who carried bags of any kind were repairmen. I guess the point is that we've built a lifestyle where "things" need to be carried. We've become a lot more mobile and that mobility provides very clear capacity for those who may be inclined to do us harm. We've got more foreign born, oddities to our norm, if you will... but they no longer stand out as they used to and thus we are no longer concerned or even aware. That, on one hand is a most wonderful thing... on the other hand though, it has the capacity to disguise dangers even when they are right next to us. There are no easy answers; perhaps NO answers at all.

                  CWS

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                  • #39
                    Re: Weak Constitution?

                    And Franki,

                    You know I do have the same feelings that you have, we don't disagree on the alarm of this at all, I think. We do however differ in regard to remedying the problem and having such remedies as a deterrent. Personally, I look at these events of terror and it makes me want to cry. I see each of the beautiful faces of those kids who were murdered in Connecticut, and I want to see more than a few of these zealots experience a gun to their heads. The surviving terrorist looks like such a nice kid, but seeing the victims, the young boy that died... I looked very much like him at that age. I cannot express what I'd like to see done to this 19 year old.

                    I think sometimes the only cure is to totally ban "Islamists" from MY country; and if I could, I'd build a wall around the entire Middle East and isolate them to the extent that they could all go back to the stone age.

                    But how many innocents would such insanity destroy? How much hate would I generate in such foolish contempt. Then I remember the few people that I know, perhaps less than a couple of dozen men and women and children who are of that faith. These are good, generous, and caring people who are smart contributors to our society. My wee, young son had a Doctor who was from Pakistan. He was the most wonderful man and Doctor that you can imagine and his daughters were shining examples of perfection. My son grew up with them and even today at 43, he cherishes their friendship.

                    How much I dislike the feelings of "gun nuts" who seem to care more for their weaponry then the lives that have been recently lost. And yet, many of my friends can be found in that group. It pains me to know that we don't agree on this issue of assault weapons and high-capacity magazines, yet these are my friends and I wouldn't want any of them to be hurt, even by my argument.

                    So it is when we get assaulted by the brutalities that comes with every increasing swiftness. I think of what could be done, if somehow we were only given the power. But then I remember all too well what happens when such powers are freely given to those who tell us that it is needed for the sake of the Nation. We need to look beyond what has fired our vengeance and we must, absolutely remind ourselves of the protections that are in place and that we should never discriminate who among our peoples, should be deprived of such privilege.

                    CWS

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                    • #40
                      Re: Weak Constitution?

                      CWS, while I appreciate the exchange of thoughts and stimulating conversation, I am equally impressed by the civil tone. We have to thank the members, and moderators. Now how high would that wall around the middle east have to be?

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                      • #41
                        Re: Weak Constitution?

                        I know of a forum that would have shut this thread down by the third post
                        sigpic

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                        • #42
                          Re: Weak Constitution?

                          99.9% of the respondents in this thread are left leaning individuals.

                          So lets not break any arms by patting yourselves on the back for a civil conversation...it was expected.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Weak Constitution?

                            Really? How many of you guys are registered democrats? I'm not. I'm still a registered republican although supporting the party gets harder all the time, but I'm hoping that maybe they will come back to reason someday.
                            sigpic

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                            • #44
                              Re: Weak Constitution?

                              Flux is right, nothing but a bunch of limp wrist commie sympathizers

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                              • #45
                                Re: Weak Constitution?

                                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                                Really? How many of you guys are registered democrats? I'm not. I'm still a registered republican although supporting the party gets harder all the time, but I'm hoping that maybe they will come back to reason someday.
                                NHM, for years I voted as a democrat. I felt the republicans were anti Union, antiLabor. Now I can't vote democrat with a good conscience. What is so wrong with the republican agenda? Balanced budget, spending cuts, border enforcement, and so on? The only thing wrong is that it's not popular.

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