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  • #16
    Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
    NHM, I don't agree with you. It is us against them, the "us" being folks who pay taxes and are either working for someone, or are self employed and retirees. The us are folks who for reasons beyond their control found themselves out of a job, with no job in sight.The "them" would be folks who never contribute to the tax base and just keep taking, and a butt backwards system that did nothing to keep businesses and jobs in the USA, and millions of illegals out! Them would include big businesses witht the political clout to use and abuse the system in their favor, including the Presidents green contributoirs who lost millions in taxpayer dollars and were never investigated. Remember the President saying, "These things happen"?Since I'm pretty sure you can't bring jobs back and can't stop folks from having babies we support, and can't make illegals pay taxes or not use resources we pay for, there is zero chance of changing us to solve the problem. We are sunk, regardless of how much we need change or get involved. The problem is far greater than us in my opinion.

    Lets break this down. http://www.mapi.net/china-largest-manufacturer-world

    While it is true that China has overtaken us in manufacturing it is by a very small percentage the United States still leads the world in gross national product. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_GDP_(nominal)
    Unfortunately many folks get their "facts" from sources that have a political agenda rather than the health and welfare of the economy and the people.

    Next lets talk illegal aliens of which the numbers are drastically dropping all the time but facts aside let's figure the actual cost of removing them, building the 2700 mile fence, roads and infrastructure require to defend and maintain this fence, bringing them all to trial and then shipping them back home. It's a staggering amount of money. Probably in the trillions of dollars all of which the " conservatives" conveniently ignore especially when in the same breath they speak of smaller, less intrusive govnment and spending less. Now lets talk about the effect that shipping them all home would have on food and produce prices as well as the cost of construction, day care and on and on. All of which will devastated the economies of many states which will of course lead to the fed having to pour money into those stats to shore up their economies. The regressives (conservatives) have a penchant for stirring up folks emotions but rarely do they ever actually take the time to think ahead to the problems that their nuke em and let god sort them out philosophy will cause. We are not going back. Not going back to the economies of the 60's, not going back to 50 cent gas, not going back to back room abortions and blacks at the back of the bus. The regressives seem incapable of thinking ahead or planning for the future or for that matter finding solutions to problems. All they want to do is place blame and name call. This nation was founded and built by progressive men with progressive ideas. The conservatives have never passed one single pice of legislation that benefited anyone other than business.
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    • #17
      Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

      NHM, You are absolutely right that there is NO going back. There is no changing all the cheap labor illegals still provide while doing very needed jobs, nor is there any recouping the lost taxes they did not pay, the services they used and did not pay for or the cost to Americans who did not have those jobs. Not all of those jobs were in agriculture, illegals are working in the food service industry, and doing trade work as well.
      If you are labeling me a conservative for my remarks then where does my stance on abortion fit? You have read it many times. I would like folks to be more responsible, is that going back to a time lost? I guess we won't see lower gas prices, or jobs coming back either.
      Please explain where the progressive movement, or plan to take us forward out of this mess exists? Right now I believe the costs to run our country and provide for those not supporting themselves is far greater than the money coming into the government.
      NHM, we can agree that we can't go back, but how do you seriously see us going forward? The economy of the 60's worked, we provided for the world and ourselves. This economy does not work. I am open to listen to reason, and progress in place of dysfunction. I want to be positive and hopeful that there is leadership to empower the masses, employ the masses, and address the massive debt and failing federal, and local governments. I believe I am seeing things as they are and not worse. NHM, if you see these issues as seriously in need of change then where or when does it happen? How much more taxes can the people who pay taxes afford until the system collapses?

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      • #18
        Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

        The economy could use improvement but all in all its doing just fine. Here's the real thing. Folks keep looking back at all those factory jobs making shoes, textiles, electronics and such but what they don't realize is that we still manufacture a crap load of stuff. It's just that the stuff we make isn't quite so obvious. There are currently around 3.4 million job openings in the U.S. the problem is that most of those jobs require skilled labor I.E. tradesmen, mechanics and such. Unfortunately, thanks to 40 years of kids being pushed into college instead of trades, those jobs remain open. Frankie, things are not nearly as bad as some would have you believe and no doubt things can and will get better but this nation is at a crossroad and we need to go the right direction. Mind you, China and other industrial nations will soon reach the same crossroad as their workers begin to demand a bigger slice of the pie and their labor costs rise which will send their manufacturing to cheaper places. Unfortunately most folks don't get the chance to see just exactly what this nation is producing. I have the opportunity to get into the factories and see first hand some of the technologies and products that ar the current foundation of our economy. Also, don't forget that robotics and automation within are responsible for more job losses domestically than outsourcing.






        http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf
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        • #19
          Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

          Originally posted by Cleanmen2 View Post
          Is it possible that there was a friendly deal done with this project. Bit like the bombs they were dropping, getting close to their use by date. Now war is never about right or wrong and one who might be a little cynical might suggest that looking at who benefits would be interesting reading.
          I have no doubt that the project went on just so someone could make money at the taxpayers expense, as do many public contracts. When I first heard the story that was my first thought.
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          • #20
            Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

            NHM, thank you for the intelligent response. I understand that we can't go back to the past, too much has changed. I still believe that the imbalance of trade leaves us at an economic disadvantage. We have cleaner air, water and ground than during our manufacturing days, but the unemployment is an under reported and staggering trade off of sorts. This one facet of our economy when combined with the massive debt, and assistance to those not working brings me back to how it will change for the better. You can fill those skilled jobs and not make a substancial difference to the other issues I brought up. You and I probably differ in our thoughts regarding our economy based on service rather than service and manufacturing. Skilled labor making repairs and rebuilding our infrastructure cannot bring wealth into our economy faster than it leaves. All the changes in percentages we pay for fuel at the pump, to heat our homes, power our electronics, transport our goods, in addition to other cost increases in living tell me things are not getting better as inflation grows. President Obama can make passionate speeches about lowering healthcare costs and keeping the plan of your choice, but my costs have skyrocketed since the implimentation of the healthcare law.
            My observations are higher costs, higher debt, combined with other concerning factors and absolutely zero in the way of encouraging signs from our government. I need more than distractions and uplifting speeches to change my views. Where is the plan, the progress, the action to change the math of rising costs and debt ?
            Just as I can accept as unreasonable, and unattainable certain Union demands upon a financially broke municipality, I cannot accept as "doing just fine" the things I mentioned. You can have the last word, and I guess we will just have to agree to disagree regarding where our economy and society are and where they are headed. Frank

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            • #21
              Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

              More interesting reading http://www.no-border-wall.com/walls-do-not-work.php

              I think one issue here is our expectation for instantantanious change. Our society has gotten used to things happening fast and economies don't work that way. History shows that we have faced these very same problems before. It's just that the news took longer to reach people and therefore, longer for them to react. Also, we have more, faster and better outlets for people to voice their opinions and theories, right and wrong and we tend to swallow as fact an awful lot of stuff that is either not true, half true or just plain misleading. I think the worst thing happening today is that too few people actually take the time to think things through or imagine the ramifications down the road. There are no simple answers and expecting politicians to come up with magic solutions is naive at best. It took years to get where we are and it will take years to change. As much as I dislike the current administration they are at least trying to change things and move ahead. Do I think universal health is a good idea? I think it eventually will be but the first few years will suck, no doubt about it but either way, everyone knows that rising health care is a crisis issue and has to be addressed. the democrats addressed it and naturally, the republicans oppose. Mind you the republicans brought nothing to the table and they still are more interested in bad mouthing Obama than they are in achieving anything of value.
              Last edited by NHMaster3015; 07-24-2013, 09:01 AM.
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              • #22
                Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

                The GOP is the only thing stopping Obama's total destruction of the American economy.

                Liberals believe they can run a nation on borrowed money that we can't pay back. The tax burden that will be put on us workers and generationS to come.

                See Detroit for a preview of how liberal economics plays out when the producers stop paying for the takers.

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                • #23
                  Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

                  Ahhh its all the liberals fault. Hmmmmmm who rammed NAFTA through?

                  The GOP is all but done with. Nobody is listening except the as Rush would say " low information audience ". The problem with the GOP is that they have nothing to bring to the table except the same tired old policies that got us here in the first place. The GOP has become the regressive party. The party of no we can't. The party of give big business more and screw the little guy. There's a reason Romney lost. He lost because the people are tired of the same old crap.
                  Last edited by NHMaster3015; 07-24-2013, 12:46 PM.
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                  • #24
                    Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

                    NHM, looks like you are not done having the last word so let me answer your question on healthcare for all. If we had a stable economy then I agree that universal healthcare is a benefit of living in a modern, progressive society. I don't see our service based economy strong enough to provide healthcare, and because of that in my opinion people will have to go without care and die so that others may live. You seem to think there are only two kinds of people in this country, liberals and conservatives, but you are wrong. I believe in a woman's right to abortion, but that abortion used repeatedly as birth control is stupid. I place equal blame on both politcal parties for the exodus of jobs and big business is also to blame. I see Unions that make demands of benefits and pay that cannot possibly be met without destroying their employer (state, or othe municipality) as wrong.
                    NHM, what you and I would like our government to provide, and what it can provide given the economy are two different things. My bottom line is the math, the income is either greater than the outflow or is doesn't work. The healthcare law does not work, the trade deficit does not work. Can you make a sensible argument of how we consume the goods provided by the rest of the world and bring in more wealth than we lose? Big businesses both American and foreign along with investors may profit from that kind of math but not the masses. When I hear folks brag about free markets, and open borders, I cringe and think how dam stupid. The world along with a communist super power is growing stronger as America is growing weak. I don't need fox news, or msnbc or anyone else to mold my opinions. If the equation does not work, that's all that matters. Getting back to the original question, my answer remains "Never", because nothing about the equation changes to effect the outcome in a positive manner. I'm tired of the same old crap from both sides, and from folks who expect or demand government benefits and assistance when the gov't is broke. Now tell me the 17 trillion is just a number and has no real meaning!

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                    • #25
                      Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

                      Frankie, lets for grins say that we decide to really get to work and tackle the healthcare crisis. Lets say we open the discussion up to anyone that wants to contribute. How long do you suppose we could go before someone begins placing blame on whatever or whoever was involved in the past? I'm guessing about four posts. Nobody really wants to solve problems, they want to blame and name call and puff their chests out and say I'm better than you. I hear all the time how the liberals want to tear the country apart. How Obama wants to re- make the nation but nobody can coherently answer for what possible reason? I mean what possible good can come from ripping our society and economy to spreads. Who's going to benefit in the long run from that? Think awhile on that because it won't be the liberals or the illegals or the minorities. The only beneficiaries are the usual suspects.
                      Last edited by NHMaster3015; 07-24-2013, 03:48 PM.
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                      • #26
                        Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

                        NHM, just for grins, read my post and respond to the things I said. You are hung up on liberals vs conservatives, I'm hung up on a dying nation. Come on, read my post and tell me where I'm mistaken. We need to save the living before we can heal the sick.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

                          I did but I'm not convinced were on the slab just yet. What I'm saying is that the partisan bull crap and the constant blame game needs to stop before any real progress can be made. Do you realize that the press has spent 3 days on some inbred royal that will most likely never be king and who gives a crap anyway. LOL.

                          Note I used the word progress as in progressive. Just kidding LOL.
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                          • #28
                            Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

                            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                            I did but I'm not convinced were on the slab just yet. What I'm saying is that the partisan bull crap and the constant blame game needs to stop before any real progress can be made. Do you realize that the press has spent 3 days on some inbred royal that will most likely never be king and who gives a crap anyway. LOL.

                            Note I used the word progress as in progressive. Just kidding LOL.
                            NHM, maybe you read my post but you sure did not respond to it. I have no confidence that the bull crap will stop and that our elected learders will put the good of the country and the needs of the people first. Going strictly by what I see and the numbers, we are headed for the slab. Aside from being hopeful can you contradict my former post, am I mistaken about the math?

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                            • #29
                              Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

                              Historically we have been here before and mushed through. I'm certain we will again.
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                              • #30
                                Re: Taxes. When is enough enough?

                                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                                Historically we have been here before and mushed through. I'm certain we will again.
                                When you say 'we' do you mean the country or the forum?
                                When I think about it seems it could be either.
                                ---------------
                                Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                                ---------------
                                “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                                ---------
                                "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                                ---------
                                sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

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