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  • #16
    Re: No Longer Made in the USA

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ID:	17674Attachment My fellow Americans................. I have seen the enemy and the enemy is we
    Last edited by NHMaster3015; 07-28-2013, 04:22 PM.
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    • #17
      Re: No Longer Made in the USA

      Originally posted by CWSmith View Post


      Robotics can be good, especially in applications that are dangerous to employees. But just to automate for the sake of automation is just narrowminded. When management's objectives seem to be to simply replace workers, then I am totally against automation. People need to be appreciated and they need jobs. Workers can be versatile, and robots are most always built to do one task only.

      No thanks, I'll gladly take my business to a friendly face any time.

      CWS
      I bet in reality that you do not practice what you preach here.

      how many powered drills do you have? what is wrong with your brace?

      do you own a car or truck? why not a rickshaw?

      do you own a computer, email? poor mail man is all most history.

      how about a TV, I bet as a kid you many have know the person who ran the projector room at the local movie house.

      I bet your scrub board is used ever day, what was wrong with the cook stove?

      I bet your keeping the wicks trimmed, or are you flicking that little switch thing on the wall when you want light,

      One of the best automation machines in farming is the combine,
      One person can do the job of hundreds of people with a sickle, and pitch forks and threshing floors.

      My uncle (1916) took all day (12 hrs.)to drive a team of horses to town and back, with less than 100 bushels of wheat in the wagon, now that semi can take 100, horse drawn loads in 20 Mins.


      I am guessing I made my point,

      I think it is only human nature to when we find a easer less costly way of doing some thing we usually adapt it,

      and business is no different,
      as far as jobs go, most do not want to do "lowly manual labor jobs"
      put a add in Craig's list and see how many would want to pull your Rickshaw,
      it very hard to find some one to clean or hoe a field unless there from a different country, and from what I read to find a young collage age kid who wants to do construction is hard to find,

      My son works in fabricating oil filed tanks, he says they can not find good willing workers, they have been looking for some new welders for months, and most that apply have to be taught how to weld, and the other at apply are high on drugs.

      and I know that my son would not mind a more automated roller, than what he has for forming the tank shells, the other day he said I have done this thousands of rings, so the rolled one entirely with his eyes closed, just to see if he could, that is rolling a 8 foot wide sheet of steel abut 40 foot long into a tank shell, (normally they stack three of them) for a tank, then add tops and bottoms and fittings.

      No I do not want to see people loose there jobs,
      but there are very few telegraph key operators left in the word,, black smiths seem to be fewer, as well, with machines and technology things change,

      one more change that I think will change manufacturing will be the 3D printer,

      I think it will be (soon) much like a star trek replicator, the ability to print many objects, and if it can use multiple substances to print the products, would be even more intricate, than just parts but possibly complete items, even with electronics, built in, the possibility like making a complete cordless drill, (with out the sub parts) all made at one time. and when done printing it would be usable not needing assembly.

      this video is a number of years old,









      yes there is always will a need for the personal touch, and people will always be needed, but things will change, and they may not be needed in positions like they may have once been needed in. but just like in farming many of the changes have removed the hard back breaking work, and drudgery that accompanied it,

      and I think places that offer the personal touch will succeed over those that do not offer it.
      Last edited by BHD; 07-28-2013, 05:22 PM.
      Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
      attributed to Samuel Johnson
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

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      • #18
        Re: No Longer Made in the USA

        I always keep my wick trimmed
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        • #19
          Re: No Longer Made in the USA

          BHD, when I worked for NYTel back in 1973 I tried to get a transfer to become one of the 2 blacksmiths they had. I didn't get the job, but these men made the manhole ladders and some other job specific items. Getting back to what we were saying, as much as I agree with you that automation has changed the world for the better, if it's implimentation is not carefully balanced against the loss of jobs it becomes a problem for society. I went to a trade high school for printing in NYC. Four years and a lot of hard work getting good grades later and automation had done away with thousands of jobs. There may be no stopping progress, but putting thousands of folks out of work with no idea of how to make up for those jobs is a problem of advancing technology in a society that is unprepared for the consequences in my opinion. Everytime a person working a cash register is replaced by a customer using a scanner, that represents one more person out of work and in need of another job while they collect gov't assistance.

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          • #20
            Re: No Longer Made in the USA

            The big problem is that there are too many people in the world and too few jobs. We need a pandemic
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            • #21
              Re: No Longer Made in the USA

              You almost had me there BHD ,

              But, there is a big difference between tools that enhance a person's work and robotics or automation that replaces a person's work. We're not talking about making a person more efficient, we're talking about totally taking the person out of the equation and replacing them with a machine!

              Sure, I have a few power drills... but I also still have my brace and bit set too. They each have a position at which they serve a task better than others and I still use them. I still have an axe, hatchet, machete, and a couple of bow saws.... there's a pleasure, skill, and even certain efficiencies to using them over other "power" tools. BUT I'm against giant robotic tree cutters that might scavenge across a terrain and take out every tree that it encounters without any regard.

              I still draw manually too. But not on a drawing board with triangles and parallels as I once did. The computer provides a certain consistancy of line quality and a much keener ability to detail than I could manually do on the board. But I still do it manually, constructing every line, using my experience to exercise detail. I'm also against taking a history of mechanical or electrical engineering technology and having some computer algorithm generate an object that gets automatically machined or printed without human involvement. I do not like computerized "configurators" that allow a lay-person to simply plug in certain parameters and have the computer spit out the order without the experienced, hands-on of a qualified engineer. In my employer's business they have invested years and millions of dollars to create a 'configurator'. Yet it is the trained and experienced engineer whose foundations are what the company is built upon and who is behind every product that we have ever built and serviced. How is it that such is held with so little regard that we spend such time and money to eliminate? No repect for people, that's how!

              I still write letters, go to the bank, receive and pay my bills via the mail and a check. I still like parking the car and walking into the bank and seeing the teller, if for no other reason than to say, "Good Morning" and see her smile. I stopped using the drive up window when they replaced it with a machine! And Yes, I do know both my mailmen, by first name! I know what they'd like for Christmas too and look forward to saying "Hello, how ya doing?" at least a couple of times a week. I do the same for folks in the grocery store, behind the cash register, the meat counter, and even the kid who brings in the carts from the parking lot. You see, people are important. Their jobs are important, and it's important to have respect for that.

              That's not to say their jobs shouldn't be less laborious. That we shouldn't drive, instead of manually carry, or that we shouldn't use tools that make those jobs more efficient and less harmful or burdensome. But none of that is the same as replacing a person with a machine, a robot, etc. .... unless the job is one of danger or resulting in a health hazard.

              But, I do thing that 3D printing is pretty fantastic technology and yes, it might someday become the "replicator" of sorts. But, that does have the potential of replacing someone's job, doesn't that really make for a job, even if it's for yourself? Let's not confuse DIY for the wholesale elimination of jobs for reasons of profiteering. Much of what a 3D printer might do is build a part that can't be found otherwise. Or it might allow the inventor or experimentor to come up with something new which might well create hundreds, in not thousands of jobs. 3D printing is a bit of technology which offers the individual a 'chance' to create something better or replace something past.

              Surely, we can take either side of the issue too far. I'm not against progress, if it makes life better and easier. But I am against so-called 'progress' for the sole purpose of sacrifising jobs and making more profit for the few. It seems that we have lost our sense of what is valuable and THAT is largely what is wrong with this country.



              CWS
              Last edited by CWSmith; 07-28-2013, 06:26 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                Another problem is our disposable lifestyle. My dad bought a Coldspot refrigerator in the 50's, he eventually gave it to me in the 80's and (after moving several times), I eventually sold it in the mid 90's, and it still worked perfectly ! (Other than a few cracks in the door seal) Things used to be well made and were built to last. Now we have no problem replacing something every few years. No wonder our land fills are full.
                I would gladly pay 3 times as much for something that will stand the test of time.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                  I have a few friends that are in manufacturing and they have commented that a lot of manufacturing is actually moving back state side... BUT, thats because its coming back to almost fully automated manufacturing facilities. If hands on assembly is still required, its still cheaper overseas, but if it requires little or no hands on, its getting cheaper to have it built here. Now, obviously there is going to be more high tech assembly line technician jobs, and less low end jobs. Lets be honest here, its not just profits and greedy CEOs and stock holders pushing this, its consumers appetite for cheaper goods. If your price is to high, they ain't buying it. Automated systems are not just killing factory jobs, farms are even on the automated bandwagon and I only see it going further. Cars are looking to be automated, and you'd be crazy to think that taxis' will have human drivers in 10-15 years. They will be nothing more than automated cars that show up when you ping one with your smart phone. Heck, there is a company looking into delivering pizza via a flying drone. More and more houses are buing built in a warehouse and shipped to a site to be assembled. Its only a matter of time before those panels are all built by an automated robot.

                  I'm starting to think that the next huge hands on job front might be the cosmos. Sounds silly, but if you think about it, mining of asteroids and possible missions to Mars and building of a colony and launching station for deep space exploration will need people. Even if they dont physically go out and build or mine, they will be controlling drones to do the work. Its all crazy sounding, but I do think it might be the future.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                    Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                    You almost had me there BHD ,

                    But, there is a big difference between tools that enhance a person's work and robotics or automation that replaces a person's work. We're not talking about making a person more efficient, we're talking about totally taking the person out of the equation and replacing them with a machine!

                    Sure, I have a few power drills... but I also still have my brace and bit set too. They each have a position at which they serve a task better than others and I still use them. I still have an axe, hatchet, machete, and a couple of bow saws.... there's a pleasure, skill, and even certain efficiencies to using them over other "power" tools. BUT I'm against giant robotic tree cutters that might scavenge across a terrain and take out every tree that it encounters without any regard.

                    I still draw manually too. But not on a drawing board with triangles and parallels as I once did. The computer provides a certain consistancy of line quality and a much keener ability to detail than I could manually do on the board. But I still do it manually, constructing every line, using my experience to exercise detail. I'm also against taking a history of mechanical or electrical engineering technology and having some computer algorithm generate an object that gets automatically machined or printed without human involvement. I do not like computerized "configurators" that allow a lay-person to simply plug in certain parameters and have the computer spit out the order without the experienced, hands-on of a qualified engineer. In my employer's business they have invested years and millions of dollars to create a 'configurator'. Yet it is the trained and experienced engineer whose foundations are what the company is built upon and who is behind every product that we have ever built and serviced. How is it that such is held with so little regard that we spend such time and money to eliminate? No repect for people, that's how!

                    I still write letters, go to the bank, receive and pay my bills via the mail and a check. I still like parking the car and walking into the bank and seeing the teller, if for no other reason than to say, "Good Morning" and see her smile. I stopped using the drive up window when they replaced it with a machine! And Yes, I do know both my mailmen, by first name! I know what they'd like for Christmas too and look forward to saying "Hello, how ya doing?" at least a couple of times a week. I do the same for folks in the grocery store, behind the cash register, the meat counter, and even the kid who brings in the carts from the parking lot. You see, people are important. Their jobs are important, and it's important to have respect for that.

                    That's not to say their jobs shouldn't be less laborious. That we shouldn't drive, instead of manually carry, or that we shouldn't use tools that make those jobs more efficient and less harmful or burdensome. But none of that is the same as replacing a person with a machine, a robot, etc. .... unless the job is one of danger or resulting in a health hazard.

                    But, I do thing that 3D printing is pretty fantastic technology and yes, it might someday become the "replicator" of sorts. But, that does have the potential of replacing someone's job, doesn't that really make for a job, even if it's for yourself? Let's not confuse DIY for the wholesale elimination of jobs for reasons of profiteering. Much of what a 3D printer might do is build a part that can't be found otherwise. Or it might allow the inventor or experimentor to come up with something new which might well create hundreds, in not thousands of jobs. 3D printing is a bit of technology which offers the individual a 'chance' to create something better or replace something past.

                    Surely, we can take either side of the issue too far. I'm not against progress, if it makes life better and easier. But I am against so-called 'progress' for the sole purpose of sacrifising jobs and making more profit for the few. It seems that we have lost our sense of what is valuable and THAT is largely what is wrong with this country.



                    CWS
                    3d desktop printers will be available this fall, in time for the Christmas rush. They will be in the 2 to 500 dollar range.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                      One reason jobs come back is because of the weakening of our dollar. When the US dollar goes down, our exports get cheaper.

                      That true about automation. Although some at the local level might loose a job, our productivity goes way up and helps our GDP. Farms are a great example. Were we better off when it took 100 men all day to harvest the crops, Or nowadays when one combine can harvest it all in 8 hours?

                      I agree, the cosmos though is silly.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                        Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                        3d desktop printers will be available this fall, in time for the Christmas rush. They will be in the 2 to 500 dollar range.
                        3d printers are going to open a giant can of worms regarding copyright lawsuits. Can you begin to imagine the items that people will be replicating? The lawyers will have a field day!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                          Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                          You almost had me there BHD ,

                          But, there is a big difference between tools that enhance a person's work and robotics or automation that replaces a person's work. We're not talking about making a person more efficient, we're talking about totally taking the person out of the equation and replacing them with a machine!

                          CWS
                          personal I think that that is all that is intended is to make a person more efficient.

                          I will take the combine harvester for example, at one time the only way to cut wheat was a sickle, pitch fork, and threshing floor, taking hundreds of men to labor long days of back breaking work to harvest the wheat, or grain,

                          then some on invented a Sickle mower,

                          then the mower with a platform on the back which the wheat was raked off of and hand tied in to bundles, then the binder, each time bigger, less man power and greater efficiency,

                          and on the other side of the coin some one was working on a thresher, and separator, at first it was a threshing floor in a barn where a flail would be sued to beat the wheat out of the heads and then the grain and chaff was sweep up and had winnowed in the blowing air to clean the chaff out,
                          the some built a spinning cylinder to beat the wheat out with save the beading part, and the separation of the straw, then some one cam up with a way of feeding the bundles of what in to the cylinder and with a fan to clean and separate the straw chaff and grain.

                          less man power, each step,

                          then some one COMBINED the header and the thresher, thus the combine, was born even tho it was horse drawn, still a lot of man power was needed at harvest,

                          then in time they motorized and self propelled them,

                          and then they grew in size,

                          mine machine is 40 years old and is still a marvel but then my old Massey 82 was to and it was only the third of the capacity of my current machine, my brothers machine is about 5 times the capacity that mine is, and the new one are larger than his, ( a few years ago a delegation of foreign trades persons were visiting one of the local elevators, and at about 150 in the air on top of the elevators grain silo the prediction was made in a few years one machine will be able to cut all the wheat you can see off the top of this building, and the truth is there not far from it,
                          with a grain cart and two trucks my brothers combine can cut easily over 150 acres of wheat in a day, three people doing the jobs of less than 100 years early would have taken hundreds if not thousands, to do the same in a days time,

                          did the guy who built and developed the Sickle mower think I going to put all these people out of work, no he may have had in mind of not having to hire as many and feed as many for a few weeks, but not necessary put them out of work,

                          I do not think John Deere is thinking of putting people out of work, when they make the next size of combine harvester, but they have.
                          when I was a kid with the old combines with 12 and 14' headers, custom cutters would have 3 or 4 some time up to 10 machines and trucks and so on to harvest wheat for hire,
                          now if they have more than three there huge operators, (a farmer with over 1000 acres can be harvested in three or four days, then it time to move north again to find some one else to cut for,
                          (many are only one machine operators, with a small crew of three or 4 people) not a dozen or so like when I was a kid,

                          it is to boost efficiency one person doing the work of hundreds, even my old machine does the work of many,

                          (I will not use the automatic check outs), but one person is over seeing three of the may be more, it is a machine to make one person as efficient as three or more.

                          even a automated factory takes a few, high skilled persons, that oversee many operations,

                          not many low skilled jobs that a makes a person in to biological robot.

                          It is just like the modern combine operator, the machine does the cutting, the threshing and the cleaning and receiving of the grain,
                          but the operator must monitor many systems and understand the machine keep it maintained, and working, know when some thing breaks or is out of adjustment,
                          constantly studding the variables in the crop and adjusting the speed the threshing adjustments and other items for proper threshing and the cleanest sample
                          normally need to be able to repair the machine in most of it aspects,
                          on mine that is by audible sounds and smells and feels,
                          on newer there is a army of sensors that detect shaft rotations, and how much grain is flowing through the machine, GPS steering even if wanted, and computers that now map out a fields yield down to a 30 foot square, for future fertilizer adjustments and other needs for the soil,
                          if wanted on corn one can put the program in that was used when the corn was planted to trace the exact rout when harvesting, nearly 0% header blight (knocking down corn with header),

                          and each of these improvements, can reduce man hours, thus in time jobs, was it planed No, but if I could afford it I would like a machine with all the bells and whistles,
                          but the truth is I am the only one who now harvest my crops, and many times do not see any one else around yet when I was a kid the custom cutters would pull in with three or four machines and 8 to 10 persons to harvest, the same acres, (but I really doubt that few if any of those 8 to 10 persons are complaining that job no longer exists) 14 to 16 hr day in 95+ heat in, dirt that will make your skin crawl, (no cabs back then) many times sleeping in old buildings, no showers may be stock tank to bath in, some times going for 20 to 30 days straight with out breaks, Praying for rain so one could sleep in a little, and even then the machines usually need some major repairs, and maintenance. so the day was still not off.

                          If I was setting up a factory and could afford it, I would put in the most automated machinery that would do the work as easy and fast that could be afforded, and hire a few good persons to run it and maintain it, not to cut any one out of a job, but to make life easer for all involved,

                          my guess is there would still be enough menial jobs that would still have to be filled,

                          no it would not be the 1800's with thousands needed to do what a few are able to do to day,

                          look a factory machine for $180,000 that takes no time off, is not late, take no bathroom breaks, need no health insurance, or taxes and workman's comp, is paid for in less than three years or a year if running 24/7,
                          and most likely can preform the job with greater precision and speed,

                          The COMBINE for the farm.

                          Probably the biggest frustration is un like the farm where the change was gradual for the last 100 years,

                          is that one day a factory has 10 people packing boxes and the next week a machine is doing that work yes the machines have developed over the past hundred years as well, but the implementation of them has not been gradual, it his a group all at once, it is not just putting in the new model but a complete revamping of the system, with new technology,

                          it would be much like taking a modern combine into some foreign country that farm like we did 100 years ago and put hundreds out of work in a day, not a hundred years.

                          and I think that is where the rub is
                          Last edited by BHD; 07-28-2013, 08:59 PM.
                          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                          attributed to Samuel Johnson
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                            The big problem is that there are too many people in the world and too few jobs. We need a pandemic
                            As complicAted as the topic is, you've always had a goofy knack for putting it all in perspective in simple language.

                            We either need a literal pandemic, or we need a system that functions with the knowledge that fewer man-hours are required to service an economy.

                            80 years ago, Keynes projected a 15 hour work week by the 2030's because of technology - it's starting to look like the man was a genius in his timing.

                            ~

                            For anyone who's familiar with capitalist supply/demand and the effects of wages on price discovery, it's going to get really interesting in the next decade for the stock market / commodities, economics and politics.

                            The extremes of political divides the last few years was not coincidence - it's an ongoing flat earth Society, debating a changing economic structure using outdated statistics based on the old world.....just replace the word "Heretic" with "Socialist", it's history repeating.


                            .

                            .

                            .
                            Last edited by DuckButter; 07-28-2013, 09:04 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                              If you follow the market it's pretty easy to see that the players are going to drag every last penny out before they let it collapse. the markets in no way reflect the true nature of the economy nor do they reflect the true value of the companies being traded but its all a game anyway. I have heard that collecting all of the rich mans money still wouldn't cover the debt but that's a BS statement and a hollow argument. Something like 18 to 25 people control 99% of all the wealth in the world. To put their wealth in perspective, a mere millionaire is little more than a bum on the street to them. They pay no taxes and they control everything from the media to the whitehouse. They can build up or tear down a nation at will. They are truly the untouchables. I don't think most folks realize just how much power they wield. Absolutely nothing happens in Washington that they do or do not want to happen. Blaming Obama, his administration or the congress is exactly what they want us to do and since they control the media..............easy peasy.
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                                If you follow the market it's pretty easy to see that the players are going to drag every last penny out before they let it collapse. the markets in no way reflect the true nature of the economy nor do they reflect the true value of the companies being traded but its all a game anyway. I have heard that collecting all of the rich mans money still wouldn't cover the debt but that's a BS statement and a hollow argument. Something like 18 to 25 people control 99% of all the wealth in the world. To put their wealth in perspective, a mere millionaire is little more than a bum on the street to them. They pay no taxes and they control everything from the media to the whitehouse. They can build up or tear down a nation at will. They are truly the untouchables. I don't think most folks realize just how much power they wield. Absolutely nothing happens in Washington that they do or do not want to happen. Blaming Obama, his administration or the congress is exactly what they want us to do and since they control the media..............easy peasy.
                                There is a simple solution, an amendment to ratify the meaning of "bribery" as it appears in the Constitution and get money out of politics.

                                (Sanders has a petition up on his website with 250K signatures)

                                Until then, we're as meaningful as Alex Jones' insanely histrionic rants, though he's right on almost every count....he just needs to take a little prozac before he goes on air.

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