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  • #46
    Re: No Longer Made in the USA

    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
    My 96 civic has 342,000 original miles on it, gets 35 mpg with the air running, never put anything but brakes, a battery and cv joints on it

    Jap crap, buy American! You would have been on your forth windstar!

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: No Longer Made in the USA

      Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
      Exactly my point, Mark.

      My wife recently asked me not to buy anything at Walmart after the factory collapse in Bangladesh.

      I explained it to her in an example, that when it comes to work shirts (pocket tee's) for $4.00, and other items, household goods that I have been cutting back on over recent years in response to a slower economy, we have no choice.

      From Walmart's perspective, they have no choice in order to be the monopoly in retail, but they pay their workers so little that upwards of 70% of them are on food stamps or Medicaid, costing hundreds of millions to taxpayers.

      Wal Mart's revenues last year were $470 billion, they have 1.3 million U.S. employees making an avg of $8 an hour.

      For a $1/hr raise, we could get them off entitlements, and it would amount to 0.5% of Walmart's revenues.

      Effectively, that means instead of paying $4.00 for my pocket tee's, I'd pay $4.02.

      Those workers would also then have more money to buy my services, instead of jerry rigging their own plumbing, they might call me - instead of putting off replacing that crusty old vanity, they might finally call me.

      In economics, the term for that is "velocity" a measure of money exchanging hands, which is at rock bottom right now despite all time highs for the stock market as well as record high's in money supply.

      I'm not denying the cost benefits of cheaper labor, I'm only citing the fact that Walmart isn't completely offsetting the lack of wages they pay, nor the jobs we lose with the marginal differences in those cost benefits.

      I don't mind paying a few cents more for a tee-shirt if that means I have more business coming in..


      Walmart is just one example of the whole problem, supply-side & trickle-down does work when it's needed, but to continue a sole focus on that portion of economics is like forgetting to mix in some cold water after filling the bath tub 90% of the way with hot water only.

      The Constitution's commerce clause in the powers of congress was intended to allow congress to tax and regulate commerce for the better of everyone, not just for the benefit of the highest campaign contributors.


      .
      I read that most of Walmart and McDonalds employees qualify for food stamps and medicaid. Why should that fall on the taxpayers instead of the employers, we are not alking about small business owners here?

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: No Longer Made in the USA

        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
        I read that most of Walmart and McDonalds employees qualify for food stamps and medicaid. Why should that fall on the taxpayers instead of the employers, we are not alking about small business owners here?
        BINGO!

        As labor demand declines from technology and globalization, so will available jobs, which then deflates wages as labor supply increases, there are college grads working at these places because IT, engineering and other higher vocations are now shipping to countries with cheaper educated labor

        As a plumber, I'll always have work, but with lower wages for my customers I will also be working cheaper relative to inflation & CPI.

        This explains why middle class wages are less than they were 14 years ago, while corporate executive wages have grown 40% since 2007.

        The benefits of this increased efficiency aren't being passed on to the whole....yet we're still providing tax incentives as if they are.




        .

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: No Longer Made in the USA

          [QUOTE=DuckButter;402920]BINGO!

          As labor demand declines from technology and globalization, so will available jobs, which then deflates wages as labor supply increases, there are college grads working at these places because IT, engineering and other higher vocations are now shipping to countries with cheaper educated labor

          As a plumber, I'll always have work, but with lower wages for my customers I will also be working cheaper relative to inflation & CPI.

          This explains why middle class wages are less than they were 14 years ago, while corporate executive wages have grown 40% since 2007.

          The benefits of this increased efficiency aren't being passed on to the whole....yet we're still providing tax incentives as if they are.



          Business owners here have said they roll cost increases onto their customers, but what happens when your customers just can't pay anymore? I mean when enough folks just can't afford your services because their pay has been cut, their costs have gone up so much they just don't have the money and can't charge anymore either?

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: No Longer Made in the USA

            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
            I read that most of Walmart and McDonalds employees qualify for food stamps and medicaid. Why should that fall on the taxpayers instead of the employers, we are not alking about small business owners here?
            Sadly this is a double edge sword. Most people who work at McDonalds and Wal Mart do so because it is the only job they can get. Maybe it is because they did not prepare themselves for life, maybe it is because the economy is so bad. Either way why should tax payers have to pay for it?

            Get ready for the things to get much worse for those people real soon. When Obamacare is implemented those employees will work part time at McDonalds and part time at Wal Mart which means they will lose there limited benefit healthcare and pay a fine to boot.

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: No Longer Made in the USA

              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
              Business owners here have said they roll cost increases onto their customers, but what happens when your customers just can't pay anymore? I mean when enough folks just can't afford your services because their pay has been cut, their costs have gone up so much they just don't have the money and can't charge anymore either?

              For lack of wage growth, they borrow and the Fed cuts rates at each recession to counteract lack of income & net worth.

              If you look at Fed data on wages, you see that median wages adjusted for CPI (inflation) are flat for three decades.

              If you look at household debt as a percent of income, it has steadily inclined over the same period, currently at 140% of income, vs government debt to GDP at 100%.

              What has kept us from collapsing is the Fed.

              30 years ago, mortgage rates were as high as 20%, last year they were as low as 3% for good credit borrowers.

              Since 2006, the Fed has gotten rates down by 2.5%, total residential mortgage debt is just under $1 trillion.

              Take 2.5% off the annual cost for $1 trillion in mortgages to make the difference of 6.5% in 2006 to 4% now, you put $250 billion per year back into the hands of homeowners.

              That's why we've rebounded despite such low growth and wage declines.

              If nothing is done about wage growth and consumers continue resorting to borrowing to continue consumption growth, the next recession could be more disastrous than 2008 for the fact that the Fed has been gradually backed into a corner over 30 years in reducing the cost of consumer debt, rates can't get much lower than this, this is the lowest treasury rates have gotten in U.S. history.

              For now, that extra $250 billion per year is going to hold us, but keep an eye on wage growth, wealth disparity and unemployment

              With all things considered on this thread, it's not looking too encouraging for wage growth, not between robotics/automation and global labor supply at a fraction the wage requirements of Americans.

              Like I said, we're going to see a lot more political growing pains, like medieval Europe and the flat Earth debate, just replace the word "heretic" with "socialist".


              .
              Last edited by DuckButter; 07-29-2013, 07:25 PM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                Sadly this is a double edge sword. Most people who work at McDonalds and Wal Mart do so because it is the only job they can get. Maybe it is because they did not prepare themselves for life, maybe it is because the economy is so bad. Either way why should tax payers have to pay for it? ...
                Let's take this to it's logical conclusion, in favor of your argument.

                If we cut entitlements for those workers without doing anything about their wages, who account for as much as 40% of the labor market, we then have a massive cut in disposable incomes, in turn we (small businesses) lose customers or have to offset with lower prices. (see explanation of "velocity" above)

                That's just basic economics Mark, it's not debatable, when wages go down, both economic activity (consumption) slows, AND we have deflation - which then drives commodities & equities down which fuels recessions & stagnant growth.

                Again, too much hot water for the bath, ya gotta balance both out - hot is good, yes, but not all hot to the extent it scalds.

                You cannot have one without the other, supply AND demand, either we acknowledge the balanced way an economy works and admit there's a problem, or we take the high road and just tell ourselves "they deserve it for not preparing, for not going to college, or being frivolous and not budgeting, for getting a degree in the wrong field".

                Then, every few years when it backfires and 2003, 2008 repeats with yet another collapse, we just buy a whole new set of excuses, courtesy of "fair and unbiased" news sources. ,completely helpless to the effects of yet another crisis.

                Regardless what we tell ourselves, lower median income directly effects those of us who are self employed - it's mathematically empirical, time proven, broke customers don't buy stuff.

                I'm not a big fan of cutting off my nose to spite my face, but that's just me.


                .
                Last edited by DuckButter; 07-29-2013, 06:59 PM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                  Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                  ...Get ready for the things to get much worse for those people real soon. When Obamacare is implemented those employees will work part time at McDonalds and part time at Wal Mart which means they will lose there limited benefit healthcare and pay a fine to boot.

                  Mark
                  I separated this paragraph for simplicity.

                  Do the math, median personal income is $26K while the mean cost per person for healthcare is $8,500.

                  Go back to 2009, when Obama almost had a public option on the table that would hAve forced the industry to finally compete and drive prices down, certain interests were pummeling the public that the "option" was a "government takeover".

                  That was a lie. - An option is an option, no one was required to leave their private insurer, it was only a cheap, low grade option to get people healthcare who cannot afford BCBS's $1400/month family plan.

                  The mandate (that was originally introduced by Conservatives), which I dislike, was the compromise Obama made when the "option" was crushed by Fox propaganda, courtesy Frank Luntz.

                  Instead of an affordable fallback, an option, for those who haven't the money, we got a mandate that requires the purchase of private sector goods without real price controls, to appease the GOP.


                  Meanwhile, while ranting and raving on the house floor "HELL NO!", Boehner was buying up health insurance stocks, to be clear, both sides have done this, it still doesn't make the outcome right when 20,000+ Americans die each year without insurance for lack of preventative diagnosis.


                  To put our cost per capita into perspective, England has a higher qualify rated healthcare, according to the W.H.O., however, England's cost per person is $3,500 vs our $8,500 per person.

                  Imagine, what an extra $5,000 for each of the 311 million men, women and children could do for our economy.

                  Heck, an extra $1,000 would do wonders factoring the multiplier.

                  .
                  Last edited by DuckButter; 07-29-2013, 07:02 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                    Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                    Let's take this to it's logical conclusion, in favor of your argument.

                    If we cut entitlements for those workers without doing anything about their wages, who account for as much as 40% of the labor market, we then have a massive cut in disposable incomes, in turn we (small businesses) lose customers or have to offset with lower prices. (see explanation of "velocity" above)

                    That's just basic economics Mark, it's not debatable, when wages go down, both economic activity (consumption) slows, AND we have deflation - which then drives commodities & equities down which fuels recessions & stagnant growth.

                    Again, too much hot water for the bath, ya gotta balance both out - hot is good, yes, but not all hot to the extent it scalds.

                    You cannot have one without the other, supply AND demand, either we acknowledge the balanced way an economy works and admit there's a problem, or we take the high road and just tell ourselves "they deserve it for not preparing, for not going to college, or being frivolous and not budgeting, for getting a degree in the wrong field".

                    Then, every few years when it backfires and 2003, 2008 repeats with yet another collapse, we just buy a whole new set of excuses, courtesy of "fair and unbiased" news sources. ,completely helpless to the effects of yet another crisis.

                    Regardless what we tell ourselves, lower median income directly effects those of us who are self employed - it's mathematically empirical, time proven, broke customers don't buy stuff.

                    I'm not a big fan of cutting off my nose to spite my face, but that's just me.


                    .
                    Heck, subsidize them all, what could it hurt? While your at it close down all of the business with unqualified, under paid employees. The Waltons have made more money then they could ever spend and McDonalds is killing the working poor.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                      Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                      I separated this paragraph for simplicity.

                      Do the math, median personal income is $26K while the mean cost per person for healthcare is $8,500.

                      Go back to 2009, when Obama almost had a public option on the table that would hAve forced the industry to finally compete and drive prices down, certain interests were pummeling the public that the "option" was a "government takeover".

                      That was a lie. - An option is an option, no one was required to leave their private insurer, it was only a cheap, low grade option to get people healthcare who cannot afford BCBS's $1400/month family plan.

                      The mandate (that was originally introduced by Conservatives), which I dislike, was the compromise Obama made when the "option" was crushed by Fox propaganda, courtesy Frank Luntz.

                      Instead of an affordable fallback, an option, for those who haven't the money, we got a mandate that requires the purchase of private sector goods without real price controls, to appease the GOP.


                      Meanwhile, while ranting and raving on the house floor "HELL NO!", Boehner was buying up health insurance stocks, to be clear, both sides have done this, it still doesn't make the outcome right when 20,000+ Americans die each year without insurance for lack of preventative diagnosis.


                      To put our cost per capita into perspective, England has a higher qualify rated healthcare, according to the W.H.O., however, England's cost per person is $3,500 vs our $8,500 per person.

                      Imagine, what an extra $5,000 for each of the 311 million men, women and children could do for our economy.

                      Heck, an extra $1,000 would do wonders factoring the multiplier.

                      .
                      Everything about the "Affordable Care Act" was a lie. I'm still waiting for the Affordable part.

                      As for the WHO, you need to go look at how the rate "healthcare".

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                        Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                        Heck, subsidize them all, what could it hurt? While your at it close down all of the business with unqualified, under paid employees. The Waltons have made more money then they could ever spend and McDonalds is killing the working poor.

                        Mark
                        I'm a Utopian fool, I like the idea of a system that diminishes the need for any tax subsidy, anything from food & shelter for poor folks by increasing minimum wage, to farm subsidies, big oil, healthcare, pharmaceuticals, multinational mega banks and government defense contractors who are paid to scan every Email, website and phone call we make in the name of "freedom".

                        In the last five years, I've learned an immense amount about the way things work - one little trick, if you want the scoop on which corporationns are going to be most profitable on the stock market, look on opensecrets.org and check who's making the biggest contributions to the majority party in Congress.

                        Works, every time.



                        .
                        .

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                          Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                          Everything about the "Affordable Care Act" was a lie. I'm still waiting for the Affordable part.

                          As for the WHO, you need to go look at how the rate "healthcare".

                          Mark
                          The bulk of Obamacare doesn't start till next year, with the exchanges.

                          If you get your "news" from Fox, it's a government plot to impose a Bolshevik totalitarian state and we're all going to die slow, horrible deaths, because "that's what some people are saying".

                          If you get your news from CNN, they don't yet know because it hasn't kicked in yet.

                          There is one empirical bit of real data, healthcare costs have stopped growing at the rate they have been for more than two decades, that's probably due to the 80/20 rule in Obamacare that requires insurers to refund customers anything over 80% of premiums that aren't applied to actual healthcare.

                          ~

                          The W.H.O. rates healthcare based on lifespan, total illness, recovery time from illness, rate of preventable illness and other related variables.

                          the U.S. is ranked 37th, with one of the highest infant mortality rates of developed nations, shortest life spans and highest incidence of preventable disease/death (of developed nations).

                          there is one standout, the U.S. does rank FIRST, in price.

                          Whether or not you agree with the way they rate care isn't relevant, they use the exact same variables across the globe, it can't be unfair or biased, unless, of course, Hannity says otherwise..

                          .
                          Last edited by DuckButter; 07-30-2013, 12:34 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                            I don't get my news from Fox or CNN, I get it from very diverse source. The scary part is as you pointed out, the bulk of Obamacare has not even kicked in and my rates have skyrocketed regardless of what you have read. There is a cost associated with allowing kids to stay on there parents policy until they are 26 and accepting pre existing conditions. In four years my rates went from $1,200 to $1,600 per month. That doesn't sound too horrible until you factor in my copays went from $5 copay to $30 copay for doctor visits and $10 per day hospitalization to $400 per day hospitalization.

                            Mark
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                              This is how WHO rates countries, mortality, disease and health system indicators including life expectancy, illnesses and deaths from key diseases, health services and treatments, financial investment in health, as well as risk factors and behaviours that affect health. Right off the bat the USD loses major points for not having socialized health care. As for infant mortality, which is sad for any reason, look at the teen pregnancy rate and see if there is a correlation. That said, there is only a 4% difference between the US (174) and the country with the lowest rate (Monaco 224) out of 224 Countries on the CIA list.Mark
                              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                                I don't get my news from Fox or CNN, I get it from very diverse source. The scary part is as you pointed out, the bulk of Obamacare has not even kicked in and my rates have skyrocketed regardless of what you have read. There is a cost associated with allowing kids to stay on there parents policy until they are 26 and accepting pre existing conditions. In four years my rates went from $1,200 to $1,600 per month. That doesn't sound too horrible until you factor in my copays went from $5 copay to $30 copay for doctor visits and $10 per day hospitalization to $400 per day hospitalization.

                                Mark
                                Now, imagine if there were a government option for those that wind up driving costs up by not paying when they go to the E.R. - while simultaneously promoting competition in a largely monopolized industry.

                                Instead, we got a mandate as a compromise to avoid a filibuster of any healthcare reform at all and the only promise of price regulation is the idea that more people being forced to buy a private sector service will, maybe, help reduce price...granted, that 80/20 rule is pretty good, but I can't draw any conclusion at all, not until I (and you) see how the 2014 exchanges effect prices.


                                Bottom line, my comparison on costs per person between us and the U.K. that segued into the W.H.O. is still relevant, at a spread in cost per person of $5,000, imagine what it would ,mean if we could only get half that, even 1/4 that in cost reductions.

                                I have a friend that works in medical supply sales, makes more than the median wage for physicians on a bachelor's degree, under the age of 30, and, from what he describes, that's industry standard.

                                What's wrong with that picture?...How and why are middle men making more the caregivers?

                                In the case of my friend, his company (publicly traded) just happens to have lobbyists on K st.

                                Comment

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