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No Longer Made in the USA

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  • #76
    Re: No Longer Made in the USA

    Here's a piece that is often overlooked. We don't manufacture much
    in the way of textiles anymore. Things like clothes and shoes but, we still grow a whole lot of cotton and we raise a whole lot of leather (cows) and guess where we sell all that cotton and leather? Anyhow.. If you want the entire economy put in the hands of the government then you ar going to have to advocate for trashing the constitution and democracy. You can't have it both ways. You worry about the trade imbalance and the debt but in truth, its only numbers on paper. You aren't paying more at the pump because of the trade imbalance, nor are groceries more expensive or housing and electic costs. There are no changes that will bring back manufacturing on the scale of the past. Automation alone put the nail in that coffin. Eventually, all the nations currently manufacturing will come up to our standards of living, the workers will demand more and the prices will rise to match ours. Sooner or later you run out of 3rd world countries to exploit. I said it awhile back but it bears repeating. The root cause of everything is too many people and too few jobs. We either need to thin the herd or rethink the value of democracy/capitalism. After all, why do we hold this concept so dear? Surely it's because this is a great nation. A nation founded on ideals and a nation of free men and women. Concepts worth fighting for but the reality, once you get past emotion is something very different. People avoid change and especially big change. Some brilliant thinkers figured out that we would eventually be where we are now over a hundred years ago. The short of it is that capitalism will always be doomed to failure because value is percieved and men are by nature greedy and corrupt. So the big question is that for our entire existence, we have been a work based society. There is value and pride associate with the work and products we make. A mans worth is still based on the work he does or does not do but when there is no longer a need to produce non essential things and when many things can be produced automatically or with little manual labor involved, how under our current system and thinking are we to survive? It is important at this point to remember that value is percieved. It is also important to separate essential personnel from non essential and furthermore understand that without greed, jealousy and avarice most of our problems would go away but we are a long way off from utopia. Just an historical note. All governments eventually fail, all economies eventually fail and all civilizations eventually fail. Entropy always wins.
    Last edited by NHMaster3015; 07-31-2013, 11:56 AM. Reason: Because apple autocorrect blows
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    • #77
      Re: No Longer Made in the USA

      "A mans worth is still based on the work he does or does not do but when there is no longer a need to produce non essential things and when many things can be produced automatically or with little manual labor involved, how under our current system and thinking are we to survive? " Quote NHM

      I agree, how are we to survive? I believe even automation requires human assistance. NHM, without the financial and emotional reward of productive work we are left with a system that makes those receiving gov't assistance little more than livestock. Healthy men and women need to work, need to have purpose. MY upset is that our system does not make sense and nothing seems to be changing that perspective. We can discuss politics, business, capitalism and anything else relevant or abstract but at the end of the day our society is operating on smoke and mirrors while others are growng strong.
      I have posted several times that we are seeing the end game of capitalism where without some failsafes it eventually destroys it's consumer base. Since you can't offer any realistic ideas of how we get out of this mess, what do see replacing democracy and capitalism? I'm with you on thinning the herd, start with folks who abuse their bodies and the healthcare system. Too harsh? Some will have to die in my opinion because the money is not there to save them all. The money is held by the rich and they are not about to give it up.

      "All governments eventually fail, all economies eventually fail and all civilizations eventually fail. Entropy always wins." quote NHM
      Talk about depressing absolutes! Do you have no faith, leave no possiblity for the above to be proven wrong? I do, just not this economy on it's present course.

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      • #78
        Re: No Longer Made in the USA

        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
        DuckButter, I appreciate the detailed breakdown on the banking manupulation thing but I was really hoping for your thoughts on-

        I believe America was strong when it lead in exports and cannot survive consuming what the rest of the world sells us, without that there is Nothing, Nothing and no way that I can imagine a turnaround. Take the banking industry out of the equation and our gov't is still spending more than it brings in. What is your take to save the economy, employ Americans, pay down the debt, beyond banking industry reform? Any ideas?
        A combination of things.

        First, we're going to need a rebalancing in wealth/wages, though the Fed has put substantial amounts of money into hands of homeowners & debtors with dirt rates, that won't last forever - it never does.

        I've mentioned at length about offsets to dropping participation rates and declining wages as technology & globalization decreases labor demand, whether that means deflation, or some form of transfer ("Socialism" as it's called so often now), there's no question this problem is going to grow.

        Keynes predicted it, projected a 15 hour workweek by 2030 with wages at those hours that afford living costs.

        There is absolutely no question that as a whole America is still wealthy, it's a problem when most Americans are barely able to afford costs of living while a minority account for that wealth.

        Reforms to campaign funding (legalized bribery), the primary cause of that disparity, exampled in my banking rant above, but very applicable in almost every industry, the wealthiest have far too much control of the definition of rule of law...making profitable activity that's detrimental to the rest of us increasingly common.

        I think it was NHMaster who originally put that bee in my bonnet 6 years ago, noting the increasing occurrences in plumbing code saying "refer to manufacturer", leading me to learn about campaign finance and why/how there's an ROI for large companies who finances politicians that, in turn, alter the law to increases profits.

        I don't know what "will" happen, I do know what "has to" happen. my guess is it'll only happen once it's completely obvious to a large enough % of American voters, and district rigging/voter restriction is no longer able to defeat popular vote.

        Watch the 2014 elections, historically, mid-terms go against the presidents party, however, if the D's run on these issues and can get a repeat of 2012 - those changes will happen sooner than later. (And I'm not a Dem)

        Until then, we have a Congress/Senate that could continue the results of 2010 that resulted in the first U.S. credit downgrade in history, 37 attempts to over-turn Obamacare, countless manufactured conspiracies (Benghazi, birthers..etc) while doing absolutely NOTHING about jobs, infrastructure or tax reform.

        If 2014 goes the way of 2010, we wait another two years and hope the rest of America catches on.

        .

        .
        Last edited by DuckButter; 07-31-2013, 05:05 PM.

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        • #79
          Re: No Longer Made in the USA

          Franki,

          I'm afraid you remind me of the preverbial kid, who questions every answer with "WHY?" There have been lot's of answers over the many years of "What are we going to do?" posts; but, you keep asking. Nothing wrong with that of course, but after awhile I'm not sure what you expect in the way of answers and exactly what you expect any answers to result in that will change your economy and satisfaction.

          Here's a story that I saw this morning: http://www.dailyfinance.com/2013/07/...6pLid%3D352069

          While I find it interesting, I'm not sure if it is entirely correct. (IS THERE ANYTHING that is entirely correct?... I don't think so!)

          One of the things that you seem to often allude to is that we some how must reduce the population by letting those who are ill and infirm just die. (Not your words, but my interpretation of what your theme is.) I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps you really would like to see "Death Panels", and perhaps to what end that might serve everyone, and more importantly perhaps... what would YOU consider to be the criteria that might warrant our termination? Would you base it on income or ability to make income? Perhaps it could be an age thing or maybe based on some desease... like if you are diabetic, have MS, a birth defect, or perhaps you just got fat and that is good enough to have your 'license to live' revoked!? Maybe we could even set the criteria based on ethnic background, religion, or perhaps eye color! While I'm joking with these regards, I would find it interesting as to how you would decide who gets care and who shouldn't. Afterall, if such feelings are expressed then surely some thinking has got to go into determining how such thoughts would manifest into corrective action.

          I'm with you on the fact that people need to contribute... does that mean they need to contribute 'work' for their entire lives, and if not, then at what age do we get to retire? How does 'disbility' enter into the scheme of things and in your world would that still be possible or are those with disability part of who might be eliminated from support and livelihood? At what point and at what age do we consider those no longer able as just so much burden that the rich or working parts of society feel to be unburdened from?

          Last night on the News I sadly watched a story regarding our Veteran's with severe disabilities. The Republicans have blocked the building and expansion for Veteran medical care facilities and expansion of services. The particular story focused around Lake Charles, LA where many veterans had hoped to see a new care facility, but Congress has blocked it. Many of these guys have to travel almost a 100 miles or more to see a Doctor in a 'mobile facility'. Veteran's facilities are apparently in real shortage. This is NOT funny, and it reminds me of a century of history in which Republicans have marched us off to wars and then afterwards attempted to deny benefits because, although wars are entered and waged with no thought to expense, the aftermath are always subject to budget cuts and/or lack of new funding.

          I too have great concerns for those who do not contribute and perhaps never will. I don't like "Welfare" and find it to be wasteful beyond description, in far too many cases. I live in a fairly nice part of town, or at least what once was once a premium neighborhood. It's still nice, but now rather diverse in it's population, and while I don't consider myself a bigot or racist, I still must admit that as a 'white guy' seeing too many black men wandering the streets at night makes me a bit wary! He!!, I grew up with that, it shames me and I don't like the feeling at all, but it's part of my years.

          What is more disturbing to me though, at least in my thinking, is every time I get in the car and take a trip through the downtown are of the city during the day. Everywhere there are men and women who are NOT working! They're just standing around or wandering around the streets or leaning in front the abandoned shops and seedy bars. Some are white, but too many are 'people of color'. Nobody seems to have jobs or even a place to go!

          The highschool is located very near the downtown area, just across the river and right on the main street. Makes no difference what time of day it is, morning or afternoon... there are dozens of kids out there, out of class and off the campus. The attire is atrocious, with the look of 'gang bangers' and 'hookers' too often prevalent. I wonder how can anyone learn anything with so many skimpily-dressed females in your class, or out on the street. The guys are not much different and there is no 'standard' whatsoever. AND, why aren't they in the classrooms?

          Everywhere you look, you see young girls with babies. Kids that barely look 16 and/or should be home with their own mothers, instead of being one themselves. And I have a strong feeling that they are on Welfare, for how else would they live? Many get knocked-up because it is a way to get out of thier own mother's struggle to survive. With a baby they get assistance and perhaps a ghetto apartment of their own. And if that little assistance isn't enough to get by with, all they have to do is have another kid... and they get more assistance. Having babies is a chance for 'a raise'. Is it no mystery why the minority population is increasing and why the ranks of the poor is forever swelling?

          Listen, I'm pretty liberal in that I think that when a person is out of job, down on their luck, or whatever, they should be helped. But I'm also conservative enough to know that it should not be endless and it should not be without some kind of service in return. I can understand when a young girl might find herself pregnant and not in a good home and needs to be out on her own with assistance. But let me tell you, that would come with some real warnings and with some very stringent rules as part of her monthly assistance payment. You have a second baby and you will get a decrease in payment, and you will not get to keep that baby and you will be investigated to the possibilities of being found unfit to even keeping your first child... and with a third baby, you will be subject to an operation OR your assistance check will stop! I am not for the government subsidy of a runaway population!

          I am also not for long-term unemployment of those who have a history of unwillingness either. At some point we need to define who is deserving and who simply needs to find another way to survive. But that brings on a problem all by itself, for does that 'survival' mean they bring crime to the rest of us? I have no answer to that.

          And business itself... what do we do about that? I would find a way for it to cost American corporations when they send jobs overseas! Either through taxes, or through expanson of rules, such as any U.S. corporation who has a plant in another country must still meet all the safety, labor, and environmental laws that they would be subject to here in the U.S. And, I would strengthen the criteria of what is or isn't a U.S. corporation. Companies like my old employer, Ingersoll-Rand who has it's headquarters NOW in Ireland. Should simply moving your HQ address totally redefine your origin? I think not, but in this particular case, the then CEO bragged in Forbes magazine, how he saved over $80 Million just by moving the HQ address to the Cayman islands (that was back in the late 90's, IIRC).

          I think we see and complain about all of the manufacturing going on in China, and elsewhere, but do we realize that a very large number of these companies are here in the U.S. and that the profits return to here in the U.S.? We only seem to want to think that everything is going to China. Here it is the middle/working class that has lost, but it it the corporate masters that gain and while the 99% have lost over the last few decades, it is the 1% who have gained tremendously. How do we change that?

          CWS

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          • #80
            Re: No Longer Made in the USA

            CWS, I had to thank you for that post if for no other reason than the expanse of content and thought. Far too much for me to properly address especially given the couple of shot of Sambucca I just had to deaden my ulcer pain( bad gut since I was a kid). The whole death panel thing and my posts alluding to letting folks die while harsh is born from my belief that there is simply not enough moeny in the system to provide for all the sick. I know the rich may hold part of the key to a solution but I still believe we just don't bring in enough wealth from the rest of the world to cover the costs of socialized medicine in the form of obamacare. Yes, the corporate leaders have gained from outsourcing, it is part of my capitalism at it's end game theory. While I agree with you on that, you must agree with me that there is no reasonable, rational solution on the horizon. I keep asking the same worn out question, not to frustrate you but in hope that someone will suggest something I am not seeing.

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            • #81
              Re: No Longer Made in the USA

              I have a tea party friend. His answer to welfare is to stop it altogether. I think he believes that if we were to stop paying it, those deadbeats on the system would suddenly get their act together, wash up, put on a suit and tie and enter the workplace. Sounds good but in reality, since they have few or no skills, few or no work habits and there are nowhere near enough jobs available even if they did, I think it's reasonable to expect that what they would actually do is to tear the cities apart with robberies, murders, muggings etc. all of which will mean more jails, cops, higher insurance rates for shop owners. Store owners abandon the cities and..well you get the picture. It would end up costing the taxpayer more than welfare does. Neither do I expect the sick, mentally ill, aged and feeble to trot out behind the nearest dumpster and drop dead. Although if they did we, the taxpayer would be blessed with the disposal bill LOL. Understand this well. Welfare is a ransom we pay to keep social order.

              Frankie, unfortunately the cost of fixing our problems far outweighs what we spend to maintain the status quot. this is why politicians rarely do anything more than talk about issues. Look at healthcare. The regressivs have tried 37 times to overturn the bill. Mind you they didn't try real hard but there's a reason for that too. By half azzed trying they keep their nut case base happy, and by failing they don't have to actually come up with something better.
              Last edited by NHMaster3015; 08-01-2013, 02:23 PM.
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              • #82
                Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                I have a tea party friend. His answer to welfare is to stop it altogether. I think he believes that if we were to stop paying it, those deadbeats on the system would suddenly get their act together, wash up, put on a suit and tie and enter the workplace. .
                In light of the fact that the bulk of that particular entitlement are single mothers, and the fact that there's not enough labor demand, there actually is a viable theory beyond what most laymen, self proclaimed Libertarians understand. (that fails when you factor everything, vs oversimplifying )

                It revolves around artificial demand, propping prices.

                The best example is healthcare, the government subsidizes 40% of all healthcare revenues, and upwards of another 10% in tax subsidy, there's very little incentive for the sector to price competitively - effectively we have the most expensive healthcare on the planet, and a bribed political system that won't allow cost regulation.

                It's a Socialized payment system that rants about "Socialism" and uses that money to buy Congress when we want to regulate costs, and the sector is absolutely littered with 7 & 8 figure salaries.

                The Idea from the Austrian standpoint (less a Libertarian one) is that lower wages will deflate prices in proportion without any government mediation or regulation. (Friedman condoned moderate regulation, Fed intervention and a Negative Income Tax to guarantee a minimum income for the lowest earners [welfare in a way])

                This logic fails when you look at the way corporations proceeded to be profitable despite wage deflation through this recession.

                As demand slumps, Corporations can either reduce labor force to adjust for lower demand, which maintains profits and diverts the need for proportional competitive pricing to adjust for wages - OR - they increase sales outside the U.S. in emerging markets with growing wages.

                Though prices do adjust to some degree, it's not proportional to wage deflation, this doesn't bode well for "supply-side" or "trickle-down" theory, probably showing there's a limit in their effectiveness.

                Austrians will also grumble about the Fed making credit cheap and artificially inflating demand, though correct to a degree, again, it's all about wages.

                They make the mistake of forgetting that an economy is about reciprocation (velocity of money supply) and assume Capitalism can't be monopolized, therefore needs no regulation.


                .
                Last edited by DuckButter; 08-01-2013, 03:26 PM.

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                • #83
                  Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                  I have a theory that is the fed were to suddenly remove all restrictions on oil exploration, drilling, transportation and refining, in short let the oil companies have free reign over the resources, that the price of gas not only wouldn't go down it would in fact go up. That's because the oil companies would have to invest billions in infrastructure and exploration. Nothing ever goes down.
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                  • #84
                    Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                    Accurate post NHM. There is absolutely no way we (the gov't) could just stop welfare or any or the other entitlements that provide food and shelter to those in need. I think some of those programs could be altered and made more steamlined, less vunerable to fraud, but nothing takes the place of jobs for the able bodied. We also don't have a solvent program to fund seniors living longer.I don't know how much big business spends on advertising junk food, cigarettes, alcohol and so forth but I see very little pushing a healthy lifestyle. Gov't incentives, private sector incentives not threats to be active and healthy could make a world of difference to our healthcare costs. When I say people will need to die, it is what I project must, or will happen is nothing is done to change the math or inspire a nation in a positive direction.
                    In spite of many surgeries from when I was a kid, I still exercise every day and can do twenty pushups without a problem at 60yrs of age. I see young men in their 20's at my gym who are so overweight and out of shape they can't do any pushups. We need folks to take more responsibility for their health. NHM, we are just exchanging thoughts here, we all know why the jobs are gone, why the rich are richer, poor are poorer, etc. Our observations are harmless aside from the occassional blood pressure spikes What is not harmless in my opinion is our economy and the direction of our society. Much as I want to be optimistic, I don't see it. That does not mean things can't somehow turnaround, but it would sure be something to see.

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                    • #85
                      Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                      Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                      Franki,

                      I'm afraid you remind me of the preverbial kid, who questions every answer with "WHY?"

                      CWS
                      I didn't want to offend Frank, but that thought came to me after a lengthy explanation of how CFMA deregulation in futures manipulation renders the big banks omnipotent over everything we buy which then depletes demand & job creation, and, he replies with -

                      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                      DuckButter, I appreciate the detailed breakdown on the banking manupulation thing but I was really hoping for your thoughts on-ideas?
                      I talk about the leak that's sinking the Titanic, he asks about the deck chairs.

                      Sorry Frank, CWS has a point though.


                      .
                      Last edited by DuckButter; 08-01-2013, 05:14 PM.

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                      • #86
                        Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                        Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                        I have a theory that is the fed were to suddenly remove all restrictions on oil exploration, drilling, transportation and refining, in short let the oil companies have free reign over the resources, that the price of gas not only wouldn't go down it would in fact go up. That's because the oil companies would have to invest billions in infrastructure and exploration. Nothing ever goes down.
                        That's not a theory.

                        I recall chiming in, alongside you in 2008 - "Drill baby drill!".

                        Now that America is a net exporter of oil, gas is still the same price.

                        Oh, and the Keystone XL "job creating" pipeline the GOP is hell bent on approving, creates less than 500 jobs once constructed...I'm sure there's a lot of tax subsidy hidden in that fine print.

                        Rex Tillerson, CEO of Exxon, testified 2 years ago to Congress that upwards of 40% the price of oil is artificially manipulated.

                        The CEO of Exxon has absolutely nothing to gain, but to ostracize himself within the sector, by saying that.
                        Last edited by DuckButter; 08-01-2013, 05:33 PM. Reason: I SUCK with grammar

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                        • #87
                          Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                          Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                          I didn't want to offend Frank, but that thought came to me after a lengthy explanation of how CFMA deregulation in futures manipulation renders the big banks omnipotent over everything we buy which then depletes demand & job creation, and, he replies with -



                          I talk about the leak that's sinking the Titanic, he asks about the deck chairs.

                          Sorry Frank, CWS has a point though.


                          .
                          No offense taken DB. I understand your concern with, and explanation of banking manipulation, however if you think the slave wages, and absense of things like the EPA, and OSHA are deck chairs by comparison I disagree. There are many big players manipulating, and damaging our economy, and they have been doing it for years. Can you place major blame on the banking industry, and give gov't a pass for racking up trillions of debt? When I asked about rational, and realistic suggestions I meant just that, things that we can expect to take place. Do you really think big business, and the banking industry will relinquish their power to manipulate? I did not ask what needs to take place because that's kind of obvious. We need a level playing field, responsible spending, everything that is not right, and that is not going to happen, so in place of what needs to be done such as banking reform...
                          Do you see anything positive that actually will turn this titanic around, or do you expect our gov't owned by the power players to do the right and necessary things? Hate to ask again but I'm still an annoying kid at heart

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                          • #88
                            Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                            I agree with NHM that "nothing ever goes down". We have seen this with the price of all the goods that are imported that were once made here, so much for slave wages, etc. I wonder how other countries such as germany can protect their export trade and impose high tarriffs and limits on our goods but we cannot do the same? Why not give them the pipeline with a stipulation on price controls? Don't answer that silly question, I know that big business controls the strings of our legislators. Sure sounds like we are doomed to stay on this path.

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                            • #89
                              Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                              On the subject of "why", I thought you guys might appreciate some laughter.

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                              • #90
                                Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                                No offense taken DB. I understand your concern with, and explanation of banking manipulation, however if you think the slave wages, and absense of things like the EPA, and OSHA are deck chairs by comparison I disagree. ..
                                As banks chisel away at middle class net worth at a constant, non-stop rate, largely through manipulation, deception and fraud while paying a fraction what a working family pays in taxes on those "gains", soaking up tax preference at 15% less than my own income rate & Fed subsidy (ZIRP) to the tune of $83 billion per year (which equals the reported profits of the top 6 banks, BTW)

                                Sure, let's ask, bewildered, baffled, what can we do about massive government & consumer debt, corroded GDP, lack of consumer buying power, and the loss of revenues to pay for entitlements that have already been paid for by the entitled that's contributing to the slowest job recovery since the Great Depression - yes, that's a good idea..

                                Let's talk about what we can do, instead of that irrelevant banking thingy.


                                .
                                Last edited by DuckButter; 08-01-2013, 07:21 PM. Reason: I spel reel badd

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