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  • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

    I agree Clinton (Democrat) did screw us by ending Glass-Steagall
    Last edited by johncameron; 08-04-2013, 09:48 PM. Reason: deleted duplicate post

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    • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

      Originally posted by johncameron View Post
      I agree Clinton (Democrat) did screw us by ending Glass-Steagall
      True.

      He also signed off on the CFMA, which contributes even more to the problem than Glass-Steagall, all done under the Banking Act of 2000.

      Granted, he presided over the greatest stock market rally in U.S. history, left a budget surplus and increased taxes to the top margins when disparity started getting frothy in the early 90's, which aided in boosting the economy & balancing the deficit....there was Lewinski.

      Bush walked into the perfect storm and did all the exact wrong things - oblivious of what was coming, spending trillions on war, corporate giveaways, Medicare D giveaways to pharmaceutical industry (blank check with no price negotiation) and cutting taxes for corporations/wealthy who only took that saved loot and stashed it into foreign tax havens instead of job creation here. - Oops.

      He even tried to reverse that in 2004 by offering tax amnesty on those offshore shelters to encourage reinvestment here, failed miserably, should never have cut their taxes to begin with.

      The funniest historic rewrite of presidential performance though, is Reagan's.

      He first started the severe trajectory of the current debt, Clinton reversed it, Bush reverted it, and now under Obama it's reversed again.
      (not looking to say it was any of their doing, just a funny observation)

      Reagan also opposed a lower cap gains tax, yet his followers rave on about how we need to keep taxes low for the "investment class" because that's how Reaganomics works.


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      Last edited by DuckButter; 08-05-2013, 04:11 PM.

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      • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

        Originally posted by johncameron View Post
        Not everyone agrees with you about the impact of the CRA;
        John, inundating your post with Wikipedia links about the CRA (I checked) means nothing.

        The CRA was in existence for 30 years, the problem didn't occur until Glass-Steagall/CFMA allowed it.

        Banks were NEVER forced to give loans to people they expected to default, they never would have before Glass-Steagall, because those loans stayed on their books back then.

        With Glass-Steagall gone, they sold garbage loans that they originated onto the public with false ratings, the CFMA then allowed them to short those assets in secret, without public disclosure.

        This is why Fabrice Tourre was just found liable in court last week, it's why Goldman Sachs paid a $550 million fine - even Fannie/Freddy sued banks for submitting loans that didn't even qualify for CRA status.

        The CRA did not "force" banks to knowingly make loans they fully expected to default, banks did that on their own for the sole purpose of making money being short CDO's once they were off the books and sold to pension funds..

        Again, this argument was debunked years ago, not even Fox or CNBC is presenting it anymore.



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        Last edited by DuckButter; 08-05-2013, 04:07 PM.

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        • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

          Thanks Duck, I have repeatedly heard from many sources things like "Federal requirements to lend money in poorer neighborhoods" (Mark Gillespie)
          Looking farther into it, I have not seen much to substantiate it. At least from Federal sources.

          I should remember not to believe everything I read just because its cited in a popular publication.

          I fully agree, removing Glass-Steagall was a huge mistake. Clinton deciding not regulate derivatives was arguably the biggest faux pas of all.
          Last edited by johncameron; 08-06-2013, 10:17 AM.

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          • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

            Originally posted by johncameron View Post
            Thanks Duck, I have repeatedly heard from many sources things like "Federal requirements to lend money in poorer neighborhoods" (Mark Gillespie)
            Looking farther into it, I have not seen much to substantiate it. At least from Federal sources.

            I should remember not to believe everything I read just because its cited in a popular publication.

            I fully agree, removing Glass-Steagall was a huge mistake. Clinton deciding not regulate derivatives was arguably the biggest faux pas of all.
            Clinton signed off on it, the bill was "The Gramm-Leach-Bliley act", three Republicans who used the advice of Larry Summers, the same Summers Obama is now considering to replace Bernanke.

            As Hilary might say - "It takes a village", this was a bipartisan screwup.

            For clarification, yes, the CRA required banks to make riskier loans as of 1977, but the banks were not required to knowingly make loans to complete deadbeats the way they did earlier this decade.

            Those loans had always stayed on the banks books, banks didn't just lend to anyone because the risk was theirs.

            Without Glass-Steagall, they were then allowed to sell those loans as securitized assets (CDO's)

            They paid ratings companies to lie about their value, and they also used futures/derivatives loopholes in the CFMA to short those CDO's in secret, then constricted consumer buying power by manipulating oil futures to $145 in 2008 to get the loans in those CDO's to default so they could make money off their secretly held short positions.


            The worst part, the same banks are still doing this in a variety of sectors by manipulating input costs and positioning themselves with advance knowledge that earnings will deviate due to prices changes resulting from futures manipulation....they only do it to a lesser degree than they did in 2008, but they do it constantly.

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            Last edited by DuckButter; 08-06-2013, 12:56 PM.

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            • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

              I would like to get back to the topic of this thread and how it impacts our economy and society. I started another thread which discussed poorly made appliances and how we are forced to repurchase much more frequently than ever before. The financial burden to the consumer in addition to the refuse generated, adds to the income of big business and the the countries which provide these goods. If the banking industry was magically cleaned up which I am sure will not happen, we still have the loss of American based businesses, jobs and better quality goods. I don't believe we can survive as a service based economy, and I don't believe we can afford to keep repurchasing expensive import goods on a regular basis. I'm not asking why, and if you are asking why, you are clueless as to the mathimatic equation involved and catastrophic results from such behavior. I just went into debt another $700.00, but I'll pay my bill. We need to be concerned about the millions who keep racking up debt to repurchase these poorly made appliances, pay for car and home repairs with credit they will never pay!Our problems are many , they are serious, and since we all know why, we can all extrapolate the results.

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              • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                I..... If the banking industry was magically cleaned up which I am sure will not happen, we still have the loss of American based businesses, jobs and better quality goods....
                That's a jigsaw puzzle missing half the pieces, you're not going to get the complete picture if you try to piece it together.

                As illustrated, ad nauseum, the banks are doing more than their share of crushing indigenous businesses by wealth extraction which destroys demand.

                e.i.- Your gas bill goes up because Goldman Sachs manipulates Nat Gas futures so they can gain on short positions in utility co's, you pay more per month, you start making coffee at home to save money and the local cafe loses your business X everyone in your town who goes there for coffee.

                Wheat, corn, beef, coffee, orange juice, oil, RBOB(gasoline), lumber, steel, copper, cotton, all of these are traded in futures, every time food, clothes or energy prices go up as a result of futures manipulation, you lose buying power, a local mom n' pop loses your business.

                .
                The above discussion of banking subprime CDO fraud illustrates the exact same thing in a bigger way, there's absolutely NO denying we lost massive jobs after 2008 as a result of upwards of 40% extraction of middle class net worth, it had little to do with the ongoing gradual creep of outsourcing.


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                Last edited by DuckButter; 08-06-2013, 02:24 PM.

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                • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                  DB, I don't deny you have some of the jigsaw pieces but if you are ignoring all the things I brought up including the massive loss of revenue paying American based businesses and jobs, consumer wealth that leaves and never returns, gov't overspending to the tune of 18 trillion on wars and entitlements among other things, then you will never have a complete picture!
                  DB, you have a part of the puzzle, now add the pieces I have, add things like consumer debt, and inflation, stir well with your banking pieces and you have a pretty nasty looking picture! The businesses and jobs will not come back, the banking industry will not stop manipulating, consumer debt will continue to climb, we are screwed, with no way out. Now who do we vote for to turn this all around? Don't even start!
                  Last edited by Frankiarmz; 08-06-2013, 03:25 PM.

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                  • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                    .

                    Frank, again, cause & effect.

                    You're partially confusing the two. - Specifically on entitlements, where you cite that as cause of debt, when in fact, increased entitlement expenses are the effect of variables you're not citing.

                    After 2008, there was a massive surge in food stamps, welfare, medicaid & other supplemental entitlement outlays, they were the effect, not the cause.

                    These benefits have prerequisite income requirements, they're the "effect", not the "cause", the result of middle class wealth extraction, the effect, not the cause.

                    The actual extraction is the combination of offshoring only benefitting the top, while the losses of banking extraction goes to the middle, all of it is enhanced by the ability for wealthy interests to legally bribe the government.

                    As a result, you're brewing your own coffee instead of going to the local mom n' pop, and the coffee you buy is probably canned outside the U.S., with the lowered labor cost going to executive pay raises instead of cheaper coffee....not to mention the cost of the container's material & the coffee itself being scalped by big bank futures manipulation atop everything else.

                    This is where the term "barbell economy" comes from, the top is getting wealthier, the bottom is more entitlement dependant, and the middle, us, are getting squeezed.


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                    Last edited by DuckButter; 08-06-2013, 03:55 PM.

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                    • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                      DB, I'm afraid you are partially ignoring the last 40 or so years that lead to the present.Banks had nothing to do with the exodus of businesses and jobs. You have to spread the blame to the investors whose bottom line was profit at all cost. Banks had nothing to do with the outsourcing to third world countries where cheap slave labor, the absense to human rights, gov't oversight in the form of the EPA and OSHA did not exist. There is massive blame before and beyond the banking industry and you can ignore that all you want but it is there.
                      Now it is obvious that the wealthy have grown strong from this mindset and behavior, the lack of gov't intervention such as in other countries has helped speed things up. Those depending on gov't entitlements had to grow in ensuing years and the middle class had to shrink. You have tunnel vision and place all of it at the feet of the banks and corupt legislators. I spread the blame to include many such as wallstreet and stock market investors. There is no way out, no way to make any of it right, all of it right. No way to fix the futures market, wallstreet, big business, washington, the banks, fradulent, irresponsible invididuals. No way, no how. Stop talking about "barbells" and start lifting them, because no one. no political party will come to our rescue. We are doomed, make no mistake, have no confusion.

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                      • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

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                        Frank, The bernoulli principle gives airplane wings greater lift, it also explains the fluid dynamics of a venturi fitting in monoflo heat systems as well as how a curve ball works. The first law of thermodynamics states that energy is neither created nor destroyed, only transferred from one state to another. Hot Apple pie a la mode tastes 1000% better with a tiny pinch of nutmeg under the ice cream. Don't try to tie both shoes at the same time. If you're meeting someone for an important formal interview, be sure you use a double Windsor on your tie knot, because single Windsor, boy scout knots, stand out like a sore thumb to someone who wears ties every day. Never step in front of moving traffic unless directed by a traffic cop, Purple grapes are more healthy than green grapes because they have resveratrol in them. Orangutans are not indigenous to North America. If you loosely connect random but logically correct statements, it doesn't make a whole argument.


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                        Last edited by DuckButter; 08-06-2013, 05:06 PM.

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                        • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                          Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                          .

                          Frank, The bernoulli principle gives airplane wings greater lift, it also explains the fluid dynamics of a venturi fitting in monoflo heat systems as well as how a curve ball works. The first law of thermodynamics states that energy is neither created nor destroyed, only transferred from one state to another. Hot Apple pie a la mode tastes 1000% better with a tiny pinch of nutmeg under the ice cream. Don't try to tie both shoes at the same time. If you're meeting someone for an important formal interview, be sure you use a double Windsor on your tie knot, because single Windsor, boy scout knots, stand out like a sore thumb to someone who wears ties every day. Never step in front of moving traffic unless directed by a traffic cop, Purple grapes are more healthy than green grapes because they have resveratrol in them. Orangutans are not indigenous to North America. If you loosely connect random but logically correct statements, it doesn't make a whole argument.


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                          That explains your fractional argument blaming the banking industry for all our woes. You can fix the banking industry in theory but you still don't have a solvent economy, and never will. Eat whatever color grapes you like because the amount of resveratrol is negligible, it's like the economy, it just doesn't matter

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                          • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                            That explains your fractional argument blaming the banking industry for all our woes. You can fix the banking industry in theory but you still don't have a solvent economy, and never will. Eat whatever color grapes you like because the amount of resveratrol is negligible, it's like the economy, it just doesn't matter
                            While that makes absolutely no sense in terms of economics to explain excess reserves at never-before-seen high's, money supply & velocity at an unprecedented spread, when we're even more wealthy as a whole country than we were 40 years ago. - I like pea's, carrots with steak cooked rare and a baked potato. Children who obey their parents are good, Jazz is considered "Musician's Music". Hypernovae are the source of GRB's, extremely large stars that burn out much faster than regular stars. Pecan pie is delicious. There is no tooth fairy.

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                            • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                              BB, children who obey their parents are only good if their parents are good people and raising them well! What makes no sense to me is how you can place blame for our failed economy on the banking industry when we have no solvent economy either way? We are a dead society, we make almost nothing we consume, we depend on others for almost everything we consume, our gov't is trillions in debt and still spending with no balanced budget. You seriously think you make any sense when discussing the failures of our economy? Your catch phrases of "excess reserves", money supply and velocity", and "We're even more wealthy as a country than we were 40 years ago", are a cruel joke to all the folks out of work, out of money and out of benefits. Forty years ago folks could work, buy a house, a car, raise a family and send kids to college. Whatever wealth you imagine, or are correct in quoting is present, is meaningless to the masses, meaningless to the 18 trillion dollar debt.
                              Our reality is bleak, with folks losing jobs, homes, families, lives and about to get much worse with no hope in sight. Enjoy your meal because there are Americans going hungry with more to come.

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                              • Re: No Longer Made in the USA

                                Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                                Franki,

                                I'm afraid you remind me of the preverbial kid, who questions every answer with "WHY?" There have been lot's of answers over the many years of "What are we going to do?" posts; but, you keep asking. Nothing wrong with that of course, but after awhile I'm not sure what you expect in the way of answers and exactly what you expect any answers to result in that will change your economy and satisfaction.
                                Ya don't say.


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