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  • Helping?

    Can you help the "poor" and "needy"?

  • #2
    Re: Helping?

    Yes but only if they are a willing partner in improving their current situation. If not, then enabling is the name of the game and that is not helping!
    Teach your kids about taxes..........eat 30 percent of their ice cream.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Helping?

      Reason I ask is that I was listening to a story over the weekend with the founders of this organization.

      http://www.givedirectly.org/

      What they are doing is very simple. They find the poorest of the poor around the world and simply give them x amount of funds. No strings attached. They are trying to see if doing it this way is better or worse than other methods with requirements.

      There reasoning is that the typical "requirements" (oversight, offices, management, etc.) all cost and are part of the overall picture as well as what is given to those in need. Doing it this way brings some success....and some failures. No secrets there.

      The organization says by simply giving funds to the poor they also have some success.....and some failures.

      And they are trying to track everything statistically to see which is better in the end. They claim to be keeping very accurate statistics. The only caveat they seem to be running into is that the traditional systems (Heifer International, etc.) don't. So it's been difficult for them to have a dollar for dollar x success/failure formula to see which gives the best bang for the buck.

      I'm inclined to think that free money without oversight will result in less success. But I do find the hypothesis interesting because I have considered going to some of these poorest communities and setting up sanitation for them. Throughout history, all people/s in concentration that have grown and have come to power start with good sanitation systems.

      But I don't want to waste my time. So I have to ask myself, can you help the poor?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Helping?

        I believe it depends on all the folks involved. How do you intend on helping them? In some places in africa for example there is no safe drinking water, so by introducing a system to correct that situation I believe true help can be achieved. Throwing money at "poor" might only be a temporary help at best. Can those folks be helped by specific job or skill training? Sure, but then there must be opportunities open to apply those skills. The question you ask in very broad, and so are the appropriate answers. I completely agree with what BadgerDave said with the addition of having job opportunities for those who want to work. I really don't think we have that situation at the present time and it's getting worse not better. In my opinion the jobs must pay a living wage for those who are not lazy and want to work so they do not burden the taxpayers. That means a salary based on a 40 hour work week that will enable a person to gas up their car, and pay their bills (food, housing, etc). The part time, low wage jobs we are seeing reported as "new" jobs are worthless!!! The situation is getting worse with thousands of folks losing their jobs and countless others losing their full time status because of the healthcare law. I know conservatives will disagree with me on the living wage thing, and liberals will disagree with me on the whole part time, low wage and healthcare law impacted jobs thing. Forget about helping the poor and needy for the moment, try to figure out how you can help the folks losing their good jobs by the thousands. Soon they will be a further burden on the unemployment system, food stamp program and all the rest of it as they lose their independence.

        I wanted to add that providing good santitation for folks around the world directly helps us here at home. Much of our produce comes from places such as costa rica and when their land gets hit with flood rains, human waste washes over the crops. Please thoroughly wash all your fruits and vegetables. Good luck!
        Last edited by Frankiarmz; 08-19-2013, 12:17 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Helping?

          What is wrong with letting people be poor ?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Helping?

            Originally posted by DELCASE View Post
            What is wrong with letting people be poor ?
            Nothing if they live in another country, but if they live here we end up paying for their housing, food, healthcare, education, children, etc.
            Come to think of it we send foreign aid to other countries too

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Helping?

              It depends on your definition of "poor" and "needy". Next to Bill Gates, I am extremely "poor" and "needy", but compared to some I know, I AM Bill Gates.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Helping?

                I had an old friend may he RIP who always said " there is nothing wrong with being broke or poor, staying that way is the problem"
                SSG, U.S. Army
                Retired
                K.I.S.S., R.T.F.M.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Helping?

                  Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                  Nothing if they live in another country, but if they live here we end up paying for their housing, food, healthcare, education, children, etc.
                  Come to think of it we send foreign aid to other countries too
                  Frankie, if one has housing, food, healthcare, and educational opportunities then I wouldn't classify them as poor or needy.
                  Teach your kids about taxes..........eat 30 percent of their ice cream.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Helping?

                    just go out and give some addicted person cash and se if that helps there plight in life.

                    I would think for most persons it would not help but to get some instant gratification, on something that would not make any long term improvement,

                    but even the programs that are out there, are massively flawed, (for example) My friends wife was with out a job, and with the 4 kids the budget was very tight so she went down and signed up for food stamps,
                    I think they qualified for $700 in aid, he said, and that was all and great for them helped a lot, then the place he was working got behind and he had some over time, they went back in to renew is what I under stand, and do to the over time he was financially over the limit by what I remember a few dollars, (I think under $10), thus they lost the entire $700 in aid,
                    then it dawned on him why a number in the shop he worked will not work over time or extra, and even not show up for work as if they make a few bucks over they loose hundreds in aid, so it holds them back from advancing and getting off of the aid programs,
                    (for the conclusion of the story she did find a job and they are not on any aid now).
                    Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                    attributed to Samuel Johnson
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Helping?

                      I have really mixed emotions on this subject of people who are "poor and needy"; and I agree with the statement that there's nothing wrong with being poor.

                      But the problem, at least as I see it and have experienced it with relatives and people I know, is that the whole dynamic has changed and now it seems that the so-called poor, have been given 'privilege' to live like those of us who have worked for a living. How that came about I don't know, but for someone on assistance to now have a good car, get thier hair and nails done, have a cell phone, and a county-issued debit card for thier purchases is just absurd to me!

                      When I was in my teens, I had a few friends who's parents qualified for assistance. Easy enough to tell, because much of thier food was in those plain white cans and cartons marked USDA. They picked it up or perhaps it was delivered, I don't know... but that is how most of thier food stuffs were given. And, it was good quality food. What they didn't get was the candy, softdrinks and snacks that you often see in the baskets of those with the 'county card' today.

                      I also remember when a person actually had to look for a job, keep a record, and show that list when they checked in every month to get their assistance checks. Sure if you were disabled you didnt' have to do that, but otherwise that was part of the process. Your 'assistance' was a somewhat limited privilege that could very easily go away.

                      But none of this seems to be the case anymore. The government itself is overwhelmed and can't afford to investigate and monitor. So for too many this 'assistance' thing is a free ride with little oversight it seems. Perhaps in some areas things are more strict, but around here I sometimes wonder who is the fool, people like myself who have had to work all of our lives to earn the Social Security retirement that we have, and which requires us to budget properly and buy our food items to fit... or be one of those who seem to be buying all the stuff that doesn't fit my budget and pay for it with a 'county card'.

                      CWS
                      Last edited by CWSmith; 08-19-2013, 02:03 PM. Reason: meant to say "county DEBIT card"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Helping?

                        Originally posted by BadgerDave View Post
                        Frankie, if one has housing, food, healthcare, and educational opportunities then I wouldn't classify them as poor or needy.
                        I agree, but once they fall into a certain financial classification here they qualify for all those things at our expense and that's what bothers me.
                        CWS brought up and excellent point regarding the absense of welfare inspectors. I heard stories of them really going thorough a residence looking for banned items, today you would have to send in a swat team to insure their safety. Compliance is a thing of the past.I hear stories of small food stores buying food stamps at a discount so they in turn can stock their shelves. Lots of ways to beat the system when there is no one to keep it honest. Other countries have "poor" folks, we have folks who are entitled.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Helping?

                          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                          Other countries have "poor" folks, we have folks who are entitled.
                          And there is part of the problem and, at least in my opinion, the beginning of solutions.... These are NOT "entitlements", or at least they shouldn't be!

                          First off, just the term itself has negative connotations; on one hand, "entitlements" makes it sound like people have an absolute right to government support, that it's totally free and all you have to do is ask for it. On the other hand, many taxpayers feel that "entitlements" means that those who have it are just lazy takers who feel they are owed.

                          I think that there are a good number of people who are in extreme need for assistance and we should be helping them get through their troubles, but I also know there are those who are taking full advantage, and to the point where they know damn well what they are doing; and we are fools for providing them with their lazy and irresponsible existance. But how do you separate the latter from the former?

                          Like many people, I've worked most of my life. I've had only three occasions when I've had to draw unemployment and that probably works out to a total of maybe three months in all my work life. Though that was pretty small (at least I think so), I never felt very good about it and I would have much preferred to do anything to earn those dollars.... even stay on with the former employer at a reduced level (if it could be guaranteed that I wasn't being taken advantage of and the employer wasn't habitually doing that to enrich themselves at the employees cost).

                          I don't believe in just giving money (or just accepting money) . Who is advantaged by that? No work is being done, nothing is being created, there's no 'pay-back' to be had, and the people receiving it, if they have any self esteem or sense of value, aren't particularly happy or comfortable just receiving it. I think people deserve something better, like training, help with a job, something that makes them earn what they receive to some extent. I also think that most people like to look at something or point out something and say, "I did that." or "I worked on that."

                          Listen, I'm not talking about some worker who is temporarily out of a job or who finds themselves jobless because after several years their employer decided to move to China or something. But questions have to be asked and qualifications need to be investigated to the objective of putting someone back to work quickly. And if those skills are no longer marketable, then something else needs to be done so the recipient can earn a living.

                          Taking a young person and placing them on welfare doesn't do anything for anybody. Do they need training? What can they do on a local basis? Do we need people to clean up the local park, paint bridges, fix sidewalks, repair local housing that is decaying? Or even filling potholes on our many decaying streets?

                          The problem of course is that there may well be people in those kinds of jobs already, but surely they can use some assistance.

                          But what we have are cities everywhere that can't afford the too many employees they already have. We see people in the DMV, public works, parks departments, and everywhere that aren't doing their jobs. Cities are overburdened with the high cost of benefits, bargained when things were great, and now they are burdened with massive debt. The whole infrastructure is decaying and no government can afford to fix anything.... YET, we are paying people 'assistance' to do NOTHING!

                          So here is a cadre of tremendous manpower that sits idle while the world around them is falling apart. I think we should have it differently, even if we need a Constitutional Amendment to do so. In other words, if someone needs assistance, then they should earn it by assisting their communities by picking up a tool and helping out. The major part of most community projects is labor... and perhaps what we, the government, need to do is to take those with the know-how and make them managers (with oversight) of the people who would be assigned to helping with a particular project. Skills would be learned and that would benefit everyone. NO more giving away money for nothing in return. Everybody needs to earn thier living!

                          CWS
                          Last edited by CWSmith; 08-19-2013, 02:49 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Helping?

                            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                            I believe it depends on all the folks involved. How do you intend on helping them? In some places in africa for example there is no safe drinking water, so by introducing a system to correct that situation I believe true help can be achieved. Throwing money at "poor" might only be a temporary help at best. Can those folks be helped by specific job or skill training? Sure, but then there must be opportunities open to apply those skills. The question you ask in very broad, and so are the appropriate answers. I completely agree with what BadgerDave said with the addition of having job opportunities for those who want to work. I really don't think we have that situation at the present time and it's getting worse not better. In my opinion the jobs must pay a living wage for those who are not lazy and want to work so they do not burden the taxpayers. That means a salary based on a 40 hour work week that will enable a person to gas up their car, and pay their bills (food, housing, etc). The part time, low wage jobs we are seeing reported as "new" jobs are worthless!!! The situation is getting worse with thousands of folks losing their jobs and countless others losing their full time status because of the healthcare law. I know conservatives will disagree with me on the living wage thing, and liberals will disagree with me on the whole part time, low wage and healthcare law impacted jobs thing. Forget about helping the poor and needy for the moment, try to figure out how you can help the folks losing their good jobs by the thousands. Soon they will be a further burden on the unemployment system, food stamp program and all the rest of it as they lose their independence.

                            I wanted to add that providing good santitation for folks around the world directly helps us here at home. Much of our produce comes from places such as costa rica and when their land gets hit with flood rains, human waste washes over the crops. Please thoroughly wash all your fruits and vegetables. Good luck!
                            On the subject of a living wage, I read this recently which I thought might interest some of you.


                            Myth: The federal minimum wage is higher today than it was
                            ***** when President Reagan took office.


                            Not true: While the federal minimum wage was only $3.35 per
                            hour in 1981 and is currently $7.25 per hour in real dollars,
                            when adjusted for inflation, the current federal minimum wage
                            would need to be more than $8 per hour to equal its buying
                            power of the early 1980s and more than $10 per hour to equal
                            its buying power of the late 1960s.

                            .
                            ---------------
                            Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                            ---------------
                            “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                            ---------
                            "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                            ---------
                            sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Helping?

                              In order to justify calling able bodied folks who live off of entitlements "lazy" you would have to prove there are living wages jobs available that these folks refuse to take. I believe without oversight in the form of home inspections for those receiving benefits there will be abuses of the system. Businesses that accept food stamps need to be monitored to prevent fraud and abuse. I can only speak for myself on the issue of entitlements. I know for a fact the system is overloaded, underfunded, abused and unsustainable. I know there are plenty of able bodied folks who either can't find a job because they do not exist, or there is no longer a need to even look because the President changed that requirement. I am positive the situation of folks needing help in the form of entitlements will continue to get worse. Thousands and thousands of full time, well paid folks are losing their jobs. Pratt, Whitney 1000 to lose their jobs. Cisco 5000 to lose their jobs. I'm sure there are many thousands more unreported. We don't need to be bitter about entitlement spending, but we should be realistic. A society that makes almost nothing it consumes, and must support able bodied folks, to not work and have babies is doomed! We are doomed.
                              Last edited by Frankiarmz; 08-19-2013, 08:10 PM.

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