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  • #31
    Re: Ah another shooting

    CWS, There is a greater power at work here. Something that cannot be measured, seen, reportable, or proven, and that something is deterrence. Is it possible to prove a criminal act was prevented by a homeowner that is known to have a pistol on the premise? Of course not. No act, no evidence, no crime. That is the grand problem with reportable data, so of course it would seem that the few instances of a homeowner defending himself with a small arms weapon can easily seem to be far outweighed by the sheer numbers of crimes committed with the same instruments. Again, in both environments, the data is reportable due to being able to be measured. But not deterrence.
    The simple truth to be questioned regarding weapons control is this, "Should a person be denied access to the tools needed to defend oneself?"

    Those whom answer "Yes" will forever condemn themselves to defend that answer to the day they die.
    Those that answer "No" will never have to justify that answer until the threat is eliminated.

    For me, the sad answer is "No." However, there is a logic out there called suitability. If it is deemed suitable to have a weapon, then allow the trend of criminal acts dictate the type of weapon allowed to be possessed for a given area.
    Last edited by tailgunner; 08-23-2013, 11:15 PM.

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    • #32
      Re: Ah another shooting

      When I lived in San Antonio there was a person that stopped an armed nut at a movie theater. Almost no news about it. Positive stories don't get out and it's not because they are rare. If anything rare events usually get more press.

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      • #33
        Re: Ah another shooting

        CwSmith;
        Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
        John,

        I'm sorry that you perceive this as a political issue of "left" or "right". I think that if we looked at history, we'd find a lot more "right" infringements than we would from the "left" though.

        Every story the media reports on is political. Thats more than just a perception. Yes, some infringements come from the right too (Which I'm also critical)


        Also, I don't see that someone saving themselves or others as a matter of 2nd Amendment rights. If you want to try to protect your family with a baseball bat when your home is invaded by some nut(s) toting a handgun, that's your prerogative, I'd prefer to handle the situation myself with the upper hand, rather than waiting 40minutes for the police to show up. And I do think that you "seldom" see such things in the news because they "seldom" happen. Believe me, with the way the NRA leadership presently is, you'd see it everywhere possibe on those rare occasions when it happens. I disagree, it does happen all the time. Not much of a story to write "He was almost robbed but the crook ran away"

        As a matter of fact, I was sitting in my Doctor's office a few months ago and picked up one of the "shooter" magazines there, in which was listed a series of stories regarding just such incidents (those where owners used thier weapon to thwart a crime or to defend a life. A couple of these were a bit of a stretch, IMO; but what surprised me most was the very low number of cases that could be told. Take that in the face of the hundreds that had died in the same period, and it was like using a squirt gun to put out a forest fire. While no doubt that those "saved" are forever grateful for the right of someone to have a weapon handy, it was nothing compared to the carnage from those who should have never been able to get their hands on a gun. The argument just doesn't begin to compare. It is very hard to quantify crimes that were thwarted. Many go unreported.

        But, I'm not against the 2nd Amendment or for any decent person owning a weapon. What I have a problem with is that the NRA leadership is against background checks and against any restrictions of weapons, types, capacities, or restraints on who should be allowed to have them. Again, it isn't a matter of "left" or "right", nor is it a matter of denying the 2nd Amendment to any law-abiding citizen. I am not a NRA member but I agree with them on this. The government has no right to a list of "who has, or who does not have" a weapon. (where they live and so forth) If there was a way to anonymously do so I would be fine with it. Remember when the NYT printed all the names of registered gun owners in NY city? What do you think the crooks were thinking, Lets rob Mr.Jones on park street because he has a gun collection? Or, Lets rob Mrs.Reed on Oak street because she can't defend herself? Shocking where this lists can show up. Mental health is a major concern but, We are treading on thin ice letting the government decide who is a "threat"

        CWS

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        • #34
          Re: Ah another shooting

          Originally posted by Alphacowboy View Post
          Frank, I still play the games of today. I have Call of Duty Black OPs II, and Battlefield 3, both current renditions of those franchises. I also have Fallout 3 and Fallout Vegas. These two games are based in the future after nuclear fallout. I find these games interesting, as they are very in-depth games. Ive wasted many an hour playing them, but honestly, they are an escape from reality, and I find it refreshing even though its set in a very dark place, full of violence and despair. Makes real life seem ok I guess, manageable and not as bad as it actually could be. But, hey, if we ever experience nuclear fallout, I'll know how to survive... lol
          You have the mind of a mature adult, and I'm assuming a balanced childhood as well. I'm serious about the intent and capability of some of the people developing these games, I know it first hand. A firearm, or any other potentially deadly weapon in the hands of a child who has adult supervision and a diverse home life carries limited risk to society as opposed to the same in the hands of an unsupervised kid from a neglectful, unsupervised environment. I think it was yesterday I heard a WWII vet was beaten to death by three kids with flashlights. Life involves risk, escapism through video games should be relatively harmless, but when the duration of play is extensive and the content is mind numbing to violent behavior, and when there is nothing to contradict that input, the results can be horrific. Politics, and the role of society to influence these situations take a backseat when it is hunter vs hunted. The mindset of those intent on causing harm and the ability of the potential victim to ward off an attack will always be the final word in these situations.

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          • #35
            Re: Ah another shooting

            Originally posted by EJW1 View Post
            Not a "right or "left thing? A few names come to mind, Feinstein, Bloomburg, Clinton, Obama, Biden, Schumer, Cuomo, Blumenthal, Leahy, Kerry, Lautenberg, Boxer, Durbin, ...............my hands are tired.

            "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest". Mahatma Gandhi

            You have forgotten Hitler, Mussilini, Peron, Edi Amin (sp), Peron, and many, many others on the "Right!"

            Quoting "Ghandi" doesn't help the question unless you also have some understanding of India, it's rule by extremist religions, and the whole 'caste' system which was terrorized into servitude well before Ghandi and of which faced the British. India was better because of the British, but certainly it was not flawless with it's many faults. You also appear to know nothing of the India situation even in Ghandi's time when his political movement severly threated to open the door to Japanese invasion across it's border and into the middle east where it would have connected up with it's tripartied partners.

            CWS

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            • #36
              Re: Ah another shooting

              Tailgunner,

              You make a good point and one that I totally agree with... but that still doesn't mean that every nut in the country should be given access to firearms. And it especially doesn't make sense that these criminal-minded people be allowed access to weapons with such destructive power. I have not said, and I would never propose that firearms be denied or removed from access to common law-abiding citizens. But just like we deny a drivers license to some people, so too should murderous weapons. We can't take away kitchen knives, but a knife or an axe or a baseball bat is not designed or intended to exclusively kill. And, while it is true that there are lots of objects that can be used for that task, none are designed to make it so efficient and inpersonal as a firearm.

              The point is that you and I have every right to own and to use a firearm, and even use it in the defense of our posessions and families. But should criminals, and those of mental disorder also have that same right? I think not!

              CWS

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              • #37
                Re: Ah another shooting

                Originally posted by johncameron View Post
                Their agenda is to take away guns from everyone including law abiding citizens.
                It appears that you spend a lot of time listening to the present NRA's leadership agenda... and agenda which appears to be spreading fear and hyping the sale of guns and promoting the industry which so heavily contributes to it.

                Who is the "they" and where is the proof of any government action that has been put into force to "take away guns form everyone including law abiding citizens". It simply hasn't happened, and saying that that is the plan by "the left" simply has not proven to be the case.

                He!! man, I live here in NY. I live within two miles of a major masecre in which some nut gunned down several innocent people.. a guy whose own parents tried to block his pistol permit because of his behaviour. Nothing has changed since then, except that I can no longer buy a high capacity magazine from a local dealer. Nobody has questioned me about my guns, knocked on my door, or even done a survey... fact is nobody in the govenment cares one way or the other... Unless of course you listen to the NRA, who probably would like to force me into buying an assault rifle from one of their supporters, out of some sick reasoning that it would make me a better patriot!

                One of the things that I don't understand while many gun enthusiasts are yelling about thier rights and that the government is going to take away thier guns, none of them appear to be the least bit concerned when some community makes it a law that everyone living there MUST own a gun... that is a far greater infringement on a citizens rights IMO, and yet those people think that is a wonderful thing! That tells me it's not about "rights" at all, it's about whether or not you agree with thier side of the issue.

                CWS

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                • #38
                  Re: Ah another shooting

                  It's not legal to possess meth. Has that stopped criminals or unstable individuals from having it?

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                  • #39
                    Re: Ah another shooting

                    And as far as laws go...some aren't enforced. It's more of an affirmation of local community culture. There are cities that have made it a law that all restaurants carry sweet tea. It's just a statement, they don't arrest people.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Ah another shooting

                      This discussion is probably going to go around the same loop as it has done many times and at the end of it no one's opinion on the subject will have changed.

                      That said I was going a make a couple of points.

                      Do you think if the victim were armed he could have defended himself. Highly doubtful given how the shooting took place. Same goes for a bystander who was armed - sure they could have shot the kids but it probably would have been too late to save the victim. IMO the real problem is that it is too easy for people who should not get guns to get them. So rather than simply talking about video games I think we should acknowledge there is a real problem with the ease with which people can get guns who should not get them. No doubt all of these are a factor so they should all be addressed.

                      As far as talking about laws - yes sure criminals do break them. But having a law allows us to deal with those who break them. Should we then do away with all criminal laws simply because criminals are going to break them no matter what?

                      As far as the Gandhi quote - I too looked it up online and there is a thread about it on the Snopes forum. In any event it does not look like he was talking about a second amendment type right but something related to the world war. I get the impression that the NRA types have found it and are circulating it as a slogan but my understanding is that the context is not what is implied.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Ah another shooting

                        Originally posted by blue_can View Post

                        As far as talking about laws - yes sure criminals do break them. But having a law allows us to deal with those who break them. Should we then do away with all criminal laws simply because criminals are going to break them no matter what?
                        Hold up here. We were talking prevention, not prosecution after the fact. Your comment has absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Ah another shooting

                          Originally posted by rofl View Post
                          Hold up here. We were talking prevention, not prosecution after the fact. Your comment has absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed.
                          Okay then - can you clarify your comment and explain to me why what I said has nothing to do with what was being discussed?

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                          • #43
                            Re: Ah another shooting

                            Every discussion regarding gun laws, in this thread and even mostly outside of it, are about keeping guns out of the wrong hands. Your assertion is that gun laws are for prosecution. This doesn't address prevention unless you believe that criminals would be deterred.
                            having laws allows us to deal with those that break them
                            This doesn't save lives.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Ah another shooting

                              Originally posted by rofl View Post
                              Every discussion regarding gun laws, in this thread and even mostly outside of it, are about keeping guns out of the wrong hands. Your assertion is that gun laws are for prosecution. This doesn't address prevention unless you believe that criminals would be deterred.
                              This doesn't save lives.
                              Of course criminals, or potential criminals are deterred! Take for example or immigration laws and how effective they are as a deterrent, okay bad example. How about laws and the prosection of pedophiles who rape children? Those offenders know they will never be able to hurt another child because, oh, sorry another bad example. Well at least laws regarding premeditated murder, murder committed during a crime and such prevent murders, right? OH, just forget what I said.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Ah another shooting

                                Originally posted by rofl View Post
                                Every discussion regarding gun laws, in this thread and even mostly outside of it, are about keeping guns out of the wrong hands. Your assertion is that gun laws are for prosecution. This doesn't address prevention unless you believe that criminals would be deterred.
                                This doesn't save lives.
                                Actually it does. What I'm talking about is stiffer laws against people who don't secure their guns and gun sellers who sell to people who should not have them. Obviously without laws to address this enforcement is not possible so the first step is to come up with laws that make sense. Currently in some states anyone can walk in and buy high power weapons without any checks whatsoever. That's what I'm talking about. Obviously such as in this case the shooters will face justice after that fact. What I'm talking about are system wide laws aimed at prevention.

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