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  • WHat are the different regulations between the states

    We are currently under threat downunder from morons who advise Government that say that less regulation is good because it makes everything more affordable. What I would like to know if possible is what license regimes do you guys have. I was once told that in some states if you are caught working unregistered you get locked up. I would like to develop this conversation a little if possible so that I can put together a submission if the faint hope it will even be read by our Minister responsible. Also is there a value in being a "Master Plumber". Here you pay big bucks to the Associations which call themselves Master Plumbers Associations. There is no real qualification attached to this, just big subs.

  • #2
    Re: WHat are the different regulations between the states

    It's a free for all. Most states require a license to plumb but the definition of a master varies greatly. Most states do not honor a license from another state and there are also several different codes that may be adopted by a state. In short, it's a freeking mess.
    sigpic

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    • #3
      Re: WHat are the different regulations between the states

      I think that pretty much sums up what I know too.

      While here in my location (NY State's southern tier), titles for most everything exists, supposedly "qualifying" a person for this or that, I'm not sure how much it really restricts anybody. Certainly, I think, the plumbing and electrician professions are probably the most stringent and meaningful within the region, that is not to say that others don't get involved in the jobs. The only thing I do presume is that local code inforcement (county, city, and village governments) authorities expect to see license information and proper inspections when and if "permits" are sought and provided. In the case where one is caught doing something without a permit or without the proper "license" for at least some plumbing and electricl work, fines will be levied and the possibility of having "the work" yanked out and properly redone is probable.... IF one gets caught. But like most things these days, "code enforcement" is under funded and perhaps even overwhelmed.

      "Licensing" and "Certifications" are a bit of a strange business, at least in my opinion. They can be highly restrictive and thus quite stringent in thier qualifications; or they can be pretty loose from one area to the next. Example from my past experience is the "Professional Engineer"... or "PE". Here in NY State, as I imagine in many other states, that "PE" is very hard to come by. The test here is quite difficult and in my many years of experience in heavy industry it has been a somewhat rare instance in which I've been priviledged to work for a "PE". However, as I understood it at one time, one could go to one of our south central states and for very little acquire thier PE "license", and thus use that 'moniker' anywhere. Not sure if that disqualified them from certain work in other states though.

      Being a legal attorney is like that, in that one must pass the "Bar Exam" in a particular state in order to practice law in that state. I have a friend who could not pass the "Bar" here in NY, after a couple of attempts... but is fully licensed in a couple of other states. While very good and a successful attorney, they cannot represent or practice law in any form here in NY.

      But back to the "trades" issue (if that is what you are asking), both the plumber and electrician that I regularly use are licensed "masters". But there are dozens in my area who contract their skills in the trades. Some are registered and some are not. A few years ago I contacted my local city counselman about "licensing" and what the penalties were (I had run into a few unscrupulous characters when I first bought our home here) and there was nothing! Even the local State Attorney General's office said the area was a "rats nest" of uncontrolled trades. I was referred to both the Carpenters and the Plumbers unions, but there was some real objections from both on even exploring the subject.

      CWS

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      • #4
        Re: WHat are the different regulations between the states

        In my humble opinion, licensing only gives the powers who be the ability to tell you how to do a job, allow them to do an inspection and fine you or pull the license if necessary. It has never in my experience stopped non licensed individuals from doing the work they do. Here a Well Driller must be licensed, but not a Pump Installer. When I took the test some 25 years ago, the test was the dumbest test I ever took. A 10 year old could have passed it with no drilling experience whatsoever. I haven't drilled for years and when the continuing education began, I then gave them back their precious license and lived happily ever after.
        Frequently asked questions about pumps and tanks.

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        • #5
          Re: WHat are the different regulations between the states

          Pretty much what Speedbump says. There is really very little enforcement.......except on those that are licensed!

          Less regulation DOES make things more affordable, provided a monopoly doesn't develop. More competition=Lower prices. Almost always.

          Is that good for those that have been licensed and under stricter regulation? Of course not.

          Tell them they need to loosen the regulation on the "Advisers" and Government official positions. In turn, more competition to their positions will make things more affordable for everyone....right?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: WHat are the different regulations between the states

            Originally posted by Cleanmen2 View Post
            We are currently under threat downunder from morons who advise Government that say that less regulation is good because it makes everything more affordable. What I would like to know if possible is what license regimes do you guys have. I was once told that in some states if you are caught working unregistered you get locked up. I would like to develop this conversation a little if possible so that I can put together a submission if the faint hope it will even be read by our Minister responsible. Also is there a value in being a "Master Plumber". Here you pay big bucks to the Associations which call themselves Master Plumbers Associations. There is no real qualification attached to this, just big subs.
            Thank God we don`t live in the US as they don`t take plumbing seriously or their health as a well regulated and licensed sanitary system which is one of the basics of civillization the other is prostitution which just reinforces my view that the US hasn`t moved into the twenty first century I always thought that the US was light years in front of Australia in plumbing but since being on this forum and reading their plumbing threads over the years I was wrong they still talk about venting every fixture
            Since 1976 and the introduction of PVC and the unventilated branch drain whether suspended or under ground where you only needed one vent on a whole house in Australia I have found they are so far behind us it is sad and why licensing and inforcing a plumber to be Licensed advances plumbing just as it does with doctors and solicitors I bet you wouldn`t let un unlicensed doctor work on you but from reading your threads I suppose you would

            Tony
            Last edited by AFM; 08-25-2013, 06:56 AM.

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            • #7
              Re: WHat are the different regulations between the states

              AF, several of our codes do allow for a single vent, 1/2 the diameter of the building drain. Wet venting is also allowed under most codes as is waste stack venting. Vent and waste pipe sizing has also changed as has water distribution so though you read stuff on our forums, a lot of it is wrong. It took me years to realize that we had been installing way too much pipe and most of it was way larger than necessary which only adds cost to the job. Under the IPC we can and do vent two entire bathroom groups with a single 1-1/2" pipe.
              sigpic

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              • #8
                Re: WHat are the different regulations between the states

                Originally posted by AFM View Post
                Thank God we don`t live in the US as they don`t take plumbing seriously or their health as a well regulated and licensed sanitary system which is one of the basics of civillization the other is prostitution which just reinforces my view that the US hasn`t moved into the twenty first century I always thought that the US was light years in front of Australia in plumbing but since being on this forum and reading their plumbing threads over the years I was wrong they still talk about venting every fixture
                Since 1976 and the introduction of PVC and the unventilated branch drain whether suspended or under ground where you only needed one vent on a whole house in Australia I have found they are so far behind us it is sad and why licensing and inforcing a plumber to be Licensed advances plumbing just as it does with doctors and solicitors I bet you wouldn`t let un unlicensed doctor work on you but from reading your threads I suppose you would

                Tony
                Give me a little more education on how the U.S. "so far behind it is sad" in the differences you see in regards to plumbing.

                Examples:

                In Australia you do it this way vs. us doing it that way in the U.S. And why it is better. Please give a few examples.

                What parts do we not take seriously that should be?

                Thanks.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: WHat are the different regulations between the states

                  Well, there was that apartment complex out in California that burnt to the ground because a plumber thought it was a good idea to give a first day apprentice a torch to solder joints in an insulated attic.

                  Side note:
                  My dream job: To don the brown shirt and 2x4, patrol around town, and break the kneecaps of every hack tradesman that dares operate without a permit, or worse, scabwork on a site that is under a contract dispute.
                  Last edited by tailgunner; 08-25-2013, 10:09 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: WHat are the different regulations between the states

                    Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
                    Well, there was that apartment complex out in California that burnt to the ground because a plumber thought it was a good idea to give a first day apprentice a torch to solder joints in an insulated attic.

                    Side note:
                    My dream job: To don the brown shirt and 2x4, patrol around town, and break the kneecaps of every hack tradesman that dares operate without a permit, or worse, scabwork on a site that is under a contract dispute.
                    Kinda' out of context as to what AFM describes I believe. Similar stories around the world.

                    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-2...losion/2726262

                    Still waiting for his explanation of the differences, how the U.S. is "so for behind it's sad", and how we don't take things seriously in comparison to Australian code & enforcement.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: WHat are the different regulations between the states

                      Originally posted by BobsPlumbing View Post
                      Give me a little more education on how the U.S. "so far behind it is sad" in the differences you see in regards to plumbing.

                      Examples:

                      In Australia you do it this way vs. us doing it that way in the U.S. And why it is better. Please give a few examples.

                      What parts do we not take seriously that should be?

                      Thanks.
                      In 1976 we had over reformation in Melbourne Victoria in plumbing we adopted a completly new plumbing code where PVC sewerage system came in and cast iron and clay piping were fassed out toilet pans were connected to cast iron waste pipes and sealed with bitumen which was heated up and applied where vents were on every fixture where sewers run around the external parts of the house and having three or four disconnector traps that the galvanised waste pipes drained into
                      The unventelated PVC sewer was born where the main 100mm sewer could be suspended under a house from on end to the other with one 50mm vent and any branch drain as long as it was in 6.5mts to the trap (now changed to 8.5mts) no vent is required
                      Now in Australia all states have the same plumbing code where if a Victorian plumber goes to another state their plumbing license is accepted I was reading in this forum that some US states don`t except plumquicks rubber sewer connections and your still useing cast iron and of all things wax seals to seal toilet pans to sewer and some of your states don`t take seriously the licensing of all who work with your sanitary system water supply gass and anything to do with plumbing and as NHM says "ITS A FREEKING MESS"

                      Tony

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: WHat are the different regulations between the states

                        Originally posted by BobsPlumbing View Post
                        Kinda' out of context as to what AFM describes I believe. Similar stories around the world.

                        http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-2...losion/2726262

                        Still waiting for his explanation of the differences, how the U.S. is "so for behind it's sad", and how we don't take things seriously in comparison to Australian code & enforcement.
                        Yes I could goggle whatever I wanted to back up my argument but what does an exploding gas cylinder have to do with the licensing of plumbers as the plumber in this situation didn`t follow the rules and have a proper vented cylinder storage box in his van as per regulations in Australia just the same as licensing of all plumbers in the US is not manditory and allows unqualified hacks to allow the spread of desease without even knowing they have

                        Tony

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: WHat are the different regulations between the states

                          Originally posted by AFM View Post
                          In 1976 we had over reformation in Melbourne Victoria in plumbing we adopted a completly new plumbing code where PVC sewerage system came in and cast iron and clay piping were fassed out toilet pans were connected to cast iron waste pipes and sealed with bitumen which was heated up and applied where vents were on every fixture where sewers run around the external parts of the house and having three or four disconnector traps that the galvanised waste pipes drained into
                          The unventelated PVC sewer was born where the main 100mm sewer could be suspended under a house from on end to the other with one 50mm vent and any branch drain as long as it was in 6.5mts to the trap (now changed to 8.5mts) no vent is required
                          Now in Australia all states have the same plumbing code where if a Victorian plumber goes to another state their plumbing license is accepted I was reading in this forum that some US states don`t except plumquicks rubber sewer connections and your still useing cast iron and of all things wax seals to seal toilet pans to sewer and some of your states don`t take seriously the licensing of all who work with your sanitary system water supply gass and anything to do with plumbing and as NHM says "ITS A FREEKING MESS"

                          Tony
                          Well, your code sounds a lot like the IPC in the states which has been around for years. And I'll let you in on a little secret, regardless of performance, no-one really knows of it's accuracy. Or other codes for that matter.

                          You're notion that the U.S. has not "moved into the twenty first century" and are "so far behind us.." is very ignorant in my opinion. I've been Googling around trying to find whatever I can about Australian plumbing. Just honestly looking for anything that you may be doing that is so much better it would make the U.S. look "so far behind".

                          I honestly couldn't find anything. I'd be glad to look at or consider anything you might be able to show in pictures, links, etc. in the differences between some of our codes vs. some of yours.

                          Saying that the U.S. doesn't take plumbing seriously is also incorrect. At least in regards to plumbers and the enforcement. I think the general public takes it for granted. But hey, sometimes I don't appreciate being able to flip a switch and have light come on I guess.

                          It's taken seriously and enforced seriously. There's just not enough resources for any type of "Plumbing Police" that we can call for an unlicensed person caught doing illegal work and they come running after them.

                          I have to say I agree with you in that everyone in the world using the same fixtures should be using the exact same code for calculating pipe size, vents, distant to vents, etc. There is no reason for any other code minimum. I believe it's a money and political thing myself. Things get simpler, less is needed, less people are needed.

                          Now with that said, no-one has ever proven their code to be the correct code minimum. Not yours, not mine (IPC) not the West Coast of the U.S. (UPC), not the amendments in local jurisdiction, etc. I've never seen tests showing consistently doing something outside of minimum tolerances causes x to happen with enough consistency to prove the minimum requirement.

                          Meanwhile, we have it beaten into our heads (yours included) that the code governing our area is the "right" one.

                          Individually venting fixtures is in no way a bad practice. The plumbing can just possibly "breathe" better. One could argue that it's a waste of material and time to do this. It's going above minimum code at times. But is it wrong to go above minimum code?

                          Is that how you do things in the down under? I mean, one of the basis' for your negative assessment of U.S. installations is things such as individually venting as opposed to common venting or wet venting.

                          So do you always calculate it in such a way to get away with installing things as cheaply as possible i.e. the bare minimum?

                          We can do that as well but the most or all of the plumbers I know lean towards quality vs. good enough.

                          Now onto the "Pan" of Australia. I get confused about this honestly. I did some looking around. Is this right or wrong?

                          In the U.S. the two major vitreous china components of a toilet are called the bowl and tank. (Two piece ones of course.)
                          In Australian the two major vitreous china components of a toilet are called the pan and cistern.

                          Pan=Bowl
                          Cistern=Tank

                          Right? Wrong? Thanks for any clarification.

                          We in the U.S. may very well have something to learn in installation methods that you do differently. Any diagrams or pictures are appreciated. We've used wax seals forever. Many of us have also explored various rubber, epdm, foam gasket sealing methods along with rear outlet i.e. blowout connections.

                          In the majority though, wax is still used. Honestly, I've seen wax seals installed 40 years without issue. $2.00 seal that lasts 40 years. Now, there is an art to properly installing a toilet. Proper clearance to flange, floor level, bolting, sealing, all come into play for proper setting and adjustment.

                          So, in my opinion, with current information, I have seen no reason for anyone with knowledge of proper plumbing practice to have any reason to conclude that the U.S. is behind Australian practices overall. Again, if you have any pictures of these practices you follow that the U.S. does not, I'm willing to learn.

                          I did find this one from a licensed Australian company.

                          http://www.hydromatic.com.au/general-plumbing

                          Not sure I want to learn these methods or not.

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                          • #14
                            Re: WHat are the different regulations between the states

                            Yes Bob a cistern is the water reservoir china or plastic for holding water to flush a toilet pan and not a tank a tank is something found outside or in a roof not in the loo its such a crude word a toilet pan is what you call a bowl a toilet pan or toilet bowl just remember your P`s & Q`s when speaking the Queens English and another strange word you use is a plugged drain or sewer when the proper word is blocked

                            Tony

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